"sprint"/"use" Should Have More Uses

[MJ12]

In some games, like Saints Row 3, Crysis, and Ghost Recon Future Soldier, the "sprint" key actually modifies a lot of actions. Others use the 'use' key for a lot of things, and both ideas Warframe should seek to emulate.

 

For example, in SR3, you get an entirely different set of hand-to-hand moves while sprinting, mostly jump kicks and running takedowns. In Crysis 2, holding down "sprint" when aiming stabilizes your weapon and increases your accuracy. In Ghost Recon Future Soldier you can 'sprint' in any stance, which makes you move faster but keeps you from attacking (even while crouched). To add more animation variety and more skill-based gameplay options to the game, I suggest you should be able to use the sprint button to alter just about any action, draining stamina to improve the action  somehow.

 

For example:

 

While holding still, 'sprint' may plant you on the ground in a wide-legged stance, adding stagger/knockdown resistance.

 

While aiming, 'sprint' may stabilize your aim and increase accuracy at the cost of stamina.

 

"Sprinting" while in midair may allow a Tenno to control their air movement to some extent (again at stamina cost).

 

Holding Sprint while crouched may allow fast crouched movement (normal speed movement) at stamina cost.

 

Pressing/holding Sprint while downed may allow for fast recoveries.

 

Now, on the Use key, right now the only use for it is to:

 

1. Pick up a few things (datamasses)

 

2. Hack consoles

 

3. Open Doors/Lockers

 

It has no real combat applications, and that's sad because it means you have a free key that you can do anything with that literally is right there begging for combat uses. Given Tenno are elite space ninja special forces, I'd like some sort of hand to hand combat moves bound to the 'Use' key.

 

Stealth kills, for one. Because of how the stealth kill prompt appears (and is easily missed), it's relatively easy to fail a stealth kill because you were just a tiny bit too close and alerted the guy/a tiny bit too far and did a regular attack instead. Stealth kills should probably be bound to the 'Use' key to avoid this problem, because honestly, the difficulty of a stealth run is getting to a target undetected, not 'wrestling with the interface and UI'. While out of stealth, the 'Use' key should have other uses. I'd suggest binding it to martial arts stuff, so if you get close to someone you can tap Use to kick them/knock them down/something or hold it down to grab a guy, draining Stamina as he struggles and you use him to shield yourself from bullets. Release use to throw him somewhere. Possibly out of a window. You could also have that allow you to jumpkick people from high up in midair (if you're in the slide-kick stance), do ground pounds to knock enemies down (possibly at the cost of a slow animation and far more vulnerability than a jump melee attack), and so on. The uses are endless.

 

So on and so forth. Right now, Warframe has a lot of controls and to add more features they should honestly accumulate additional uses for to add gameplay depth and additional tactics.

[fauxhb]

yes to this and no those random rolls or jumps (i get those, i jump even though i didn't press space) we have now.

[SpartanChief1170]

A  lot of this would be cool but having anything else that requires you to hold a button while aiming will kill controller users more. (I use an xbox controller to play and have gone through a few key binding cycles and found  something that works relatively well. but i already lose functionality with not having enough buttons. Especially buttons I can use while using my right stick to aim. 

 

There are definitely a few things that could be done without hindering that but the body shield  one would work better if you just toggled it  on/off instead of having to hold it.

[iotimoline]

+1 to more animations and permutations.

[unmog]

Stealth kills should probably be bound to the 'Use' key to avoid this problem, because honestly, the difficulty of a stealth run is getting to a target undetected, not 'wrestling with the interface and UI'. 

Yes... GOD YES... the first time my friend mentioned stealth kills to me I automatically assumed it was the use button, since that seemed rather intuitive and simple and different than my melee strike. So i snuck up, smashed the use button alot because honestly the little button prompt that showed up is SO TINY I couldn't even read it, and of course I screwed up my stealth kill. Would be so much better if it was the use button instead of the melee button. That way ya dont attack em on accident before the prompt either which will ALSO screw up the stealth kill. UI needs a lot of help really.

[NotaCobra]

Use is absolutely fine.

 

sprintis already used for a number of movement related abilities such as wall running, climbing and jumping.

It also provides a dodge roll, and is needed to keep momentum up in the air.

Oh, and it makes you sprint.

Why add useless functions to it and overcomplicate a well designed ergonomic control system?

 

You mentioned rifle steady for the shift key;

Have you noticed that any game EVER that has this has a moving crosshair?

Warframe's scopes are static, they don't move unless you do, thus holding shift to steady the crosshair does nothing.

If you want improved accurace, buy a weapon designed for it.

 

The ONLY (literally, the single thing) that I don't hate about your post is the idea of moving stealth kills from Q to E.

That makes sense

That makes the game easier.

 

Everything else you suggested does the opposite.

[MJ12]

Use is absolutely fine.

Except it's utterly extraneous 99.9% of the time. It's a button which has no combat use whatsoever and is perfect for binding combat-useful actions to becaiuse there's rarely if ever any reason to use it during combat. 

sprintis already used for a number of movement related abilities such as wall running, climbing and jumping.

It also provides a dodge roll, and is needed to keep momentum up in the air.

Oh, and it makes you sprint.

Why add useless functions to it and overcomplicate a well designed ergonomic control system?

 So adding a ton of useful functions related to movement (air control, ground recovery, stagger resistance, fast crouch movement) overcomplicates the ergonomics? Really? I mean all of these are intuitive extensions of a movement system.

You mentioned rifle steady for the shift key;

Have you noticed that any game EVER that has this has a moving crosshair?

Warframe's scopes are static, they don't move unless you do, thus holding shift to steady the crosshair does nothing.

If you want improved accurace, buy a weapon designed for it.

So making your weapons more accurate = "doing nothing". Okay. And why is it so verboten that I might want to trade movement and stamina for somewhat higher accuracy? That gives me a useful tactical option, versus just simple run and gun. More mechanics and more options = more depth. It's also an intuitive mechanic found in a billion other games so it's not like it'd confuse people.

The ONLY (literally, the single thing) that I don't hate about your post is the idea of moving stealth kills from Q to E.

That makes sense

That makes the game easier.

 

Everything else you suggested does the opposite.

Man what. How does "more moves to deal with the primary annoyances in the game" (stagger, air control, knockdown) and "more animations" make a game harder? Seriously. I don't even understand how you reached your conclusion. It seems to me that your sole argument is "the game is playable as it is, so it doesn't need new stuff" and given that this game is an incomplete beta, that's blatantly false.

[NotaCobra]

Except it's utterly extraneous 99.9% of the time. It's a button which has no combat use whatsoever and is perfect for binding combat-useful actions to becaiuse there's rarely if ever any reason to use it during combat. 

 So adding a ton of useful functions related to movement (air control, ground recovery, stagger resistance, fast crouch movement) overcomplicates the ergonomics? Really? I mean all of these are intuitive extensions of a movement system.

So making your weapons more accurate = "doing nothing". Okay. And why is it so verboten that I might want to trade movement and stamina for somewhat higher accuracy? That gives me a useful tactical option, versus just simple run and gun. More mechanics and more options = more depth. It's also an intuitive mechanic found in a billion other games so it's not like it'd confuse people.

Man what. How does "more moves to deal with the primary annoyances in the game" (stagger, air control, knockdown) and "more animations" make a game harder? Seriously. I don't even understand how you reached your conclusion. It seems to me that your sole argument is "the game is playable as it is, so it doesn't need new stuff" and given that this game is an incomplete beta, that's blatantly false.

 

 

"Hey guys, all these enemies are really tricky to fight at once...

what if we held P for 3 seconds and it killed all enemies in the room automatically? the P button isn't bound by default, so it's free to use even in combat"

 

Just because you CAN add more features doesn't mean you should.

Air control, stagger, weapon accuracy.

These are all components involved in making the game more strategic and challenging.

The only reason infested pose a threat is their stagger and stunlock potential.

The only reason the gorgon isn't the best weapon ever is it's limited accuracy.

 

And as far as air control goes, Jump straight forward off a roof in real life.

Now try and land 3 metres to the left.

 

You can't do it. But I'd love to watch you try.

 

Last I checked, warframes lack thrusters, wingsuits or any other device used to adjust midair momentum and direction.

Short of waving their hands in the air, warframes shouldn't, logically, be able to do much for air control.

 

What's more, wall running, dodge rolls, air kicks, air dives, these are all currently in the game, all fairly easy to pull off (yes, even in combat) and provide all the moment you'll need in a fight.

Adding overly complicated controls doesn't actually add anything to the game except by making it more inaccessable.

 

 

and lastly, why SHOULD these buttons have more functions?

Half life 2, one of the greatest games of it's time, sprint let you sprint, use activated objects. That's it.

Halo series, overated but extrordinarily popular game, sprint let you sprint, and I don't even recall a use button.

L4D, TF2, Earlier CoD games, later Cod games (Minus rifle stability which again was due to a moving scope, it didn't just decrease spread for free), Grand theft auto, Mass effect, Saints row, Far Cry.

The list is endless.

 

Just because some game has some function doesn't mean this one should have it.

Especially when it has no place in this game.

[MJ12]

"Hey guys, all these enemies are really tricky to fight at once...

what if we held P for 3 seconds and it killed all enemies in the room automatically? the P button isn't bound by default, so it's free to use even in combat"

 

Your absurd example is a strawman. None of these moves are even remotely game-breaking, except maybe the grab (and that's only dependent on how fast the stamina drain is, if it drained as fast as blocking it'd be very weak). You also don't even get the rationale for this, because most of these features (martial arts, some form of air control, fast recoveries, stagger prevention) have been asked for, and the easiest way to implement them without control overload would be to put them on keys with limited combat use, or keys wherein using them in that situation feels intuitive.

 

That would be X (use) and Shift (Sprint).

 

Just because you CAN add more features doesn't mean you should.

Air control, stagger, weapon accuracy.

These are all components involved in making the game more strategic and challenging.

The only reason infested pose a threat is their stagger and stunlock potential.

The only reason the gorgon isn't the best weapon ever is it's limited accuracy.

 

So you can make the gorgon the "best weapon ever" by sacrificing all your mobility, because you spend your time stationary, in the open, using ADS and all your stamina to steady it. Meanwhile, someone using a Braton with more accuracy can get worthwhile damage at longer ranges without standing still and exposing themselves to fire.

 

The infested stagger/stunlock potential being the only reason they pose a threat is a point, which is exactly why some form of active stun resistance move that doesn't stop you from fighting back is necessary. Only then will whoever designed all those random bulls**t fake difficulty enemies be forced to actually make legitimately challenging enemies to fight, instead of relying on cheap fake difficulty tricks.

 

Being able to make tradeoffs and having more uses for a resource makes the game more strategic and creates an increase in the maximum level of challenge you can legitimately create (without resorting to fake difficulty tricks) because you have an extended toolbox you are expected to apply in situations and being able to remember and juggle that toolbox becomes harder the more useful moves you have.

 

Right now, stamina is only useful for one thing. Sprinting around. But what if they made block useful? Now you have choices to make on how to use your stamina. That instantly increases gameplay depth. What if they implemented some of these ideas on what stamina could be used for? Suddenly you have even more things to balance. Do I save stamina to accurize my Gorgon and shoot them all down, do I use it on getting in close and using my Bronco, do I block the enemy attack and counterattack, do I just sprawl and take their hits while dishing them back, what?

 

Suddenly you have a ton of strategic depth. And with more strategic depth comes the potential for greater challenges which are legitimately challenging without being cheap.

 

And as far as air control goes, Jump straight forward off a roof in real life.

Now try and land 3 metres to the left.

 

You can't do it. But I'd love to watch you try.

 

Last I checked, warframes lack thrusters, wingsuits or any other device used to adjust midair momentum and direction.

Short of waving their hands in the air, warframes shouldn't, logically, be able to do much for air control.

 

What's more, wall running, dodge rolls, air kicks, air dives, these are all currently in the game, all fairly easy to pull off (yes, even in combat) and provide all the moment you'll need in a fight.

Adding overly complicated controls doesn't actually add anything to the game except by making it more inaccessable.

 

So because they lack thrusters or wingsuits they can't adjust midair momentum and direction in a game where Clarke's Law is fully in effect? What, they can't manipulate gravity? Or have reactionless thrusters that you don't see? Their wallruns are already ridiculous in the first place, and so is blocking bullets. Being able to control your jump distance more precisely is something most games with jumping have because it's very easy to misjudge jumps without any sort of kinesthetic sense, given that a videogame lacks force feedback. Relatively easy landings in real life are actually hard to do in Warframe because your avatar doesn't know when to land dead-on and when to land in a roll, and there's also the whole 'you can't feel a jump, so you can't judge it' thing. Air control is the fix to that, and games generally have some degree of it specifically so you can actually jump without it feeling like an immersion-breaking chore.

 

I really don't get your argument. It seems like you're arguing against things just for the sake of arguing against things, and randomly choosing whatever excuse you want out of a hat, whether it's consistent or not (you bring up realism right after you denigrate realism, for example) in a futile attempt to look like you have a point.

 

and lastly, why SHOULD these buttons have more functions?

Half life 2, one of the greatest games of it's time, sprint let you sprint, use activated objects. That's it.

Halo series, overated but extrordinarily popular game, sprint let you sprint, and I don't even recall a use button.

L4D, TF2, Earlier CoD games, later Cod games (Minus rifle stability which again was due to a moving scope, it didn't just decrease spread for free), Grand theft auto, Mass effect, Saints row, Far Cry.

The list is endless.

 

Just because some game has some function doesn't mean this one should have it.

Especially when it has no place in this game.

 

Why shouldn't they have more functions? Especially when these functions have been demanded already by plenty of players in other threads (martial arts moves, more maneuverability, a way to resist stunlock).

 

Half Life 2 was Half Life 2. It was entirely sold on its pacing, storytelling, and physics engine. L4D has tons of stuff you need to 'use' during combat, like switching weapons (note that all of these games besides HL2 have a 'use' key which is important in combat), all the CoD games, GTA, Mass Effect (Use also moves you in and out of cover in several of them), Far Cry did the same, and also the games its developer created afterwards had a ton of things the use key did (tag targets, hack enemy units in combat, grabs, air stomps) that were combat-relevant.

 

Oh, and Saints Row is an excellent example because sprint was a modifier to every single physical action you could take. Notice I mentioned Saints Row by name, because it is a game where sprinting modifies practically every. single. movement you can make.

[PapaKicks]

Except it's utterly extraneous 99.9% of the time. It's a button which has no combat use whatsoever and is perfect for binding combat-useful actions to becaiuse there's rarely if ever any reason to use it during combat. 

 

I use sprint in combat all the time. The game gets a LOT more fun the more you act like a space ninja and less like a sniper. (YMMV)

[Zeddypanda]

The use key does the following:

 

 

1. Pick up a few things (datamasses)
2. Hack consoles

3. Open Doors/Lockers

4. Hold to revive your teammates in the middle of combat.
 

If it's all the same to you, I'd rather not get locked in some kind of martial arts move because I stood a bit misaligned relative to my dying teammate who has seconds left on their timer.

[MJ12]

The use key does the following:

 

 

1. Pick up a few things (datamasses)

2. Hack consoles

3. Open Doors/Lockers

4. Hold to revive your teammates in the middle of combat.

 

If it's all the same to you, I'd rather not get locked in some kind of martial arts move because I stood a bit misaligned relative to my dying teammate who has seconds left on their timer.

 

So give reviving a friendly the highest priority possible and/or cancel other animations (this should be done anyways because it makes good sense to be able to cancel into a revive). To revive someone you have to aim at them and the prompt has to come up, so it's not like this will lose anything. This isn't actually a problem unless you screw up the design. And more importantly, how often do your teammates die? If it's often enough that enemy takedowns are actually a net loss in capability because you're always desperately scrambling for chain-revives I'd say you guys are playing significantly above your skill level.

[RainDreamer]

Use key should be able to be used to grab a humanoid enemy near to you in combat as meatshield. No effect on infested or moas. Heavies need half hp off to grab. Can't grab while shield is on.

Edited May 11, 2013 by RainDreamer