Please Remove The New Version Of Wave Dashing: Infinite Melee Slide Attack

[TheChaffeemancer]

This isn't Tribes, so that argument won't hold, and I didn't ask for people to be banned, either, thanks.

 

Yes it is, skiing in tribes was originally a glitch that happened when players held... the jump button was it? They would basically ski around the map. It was never intended to be in the game, this is why it is relevant. (Skiing, by the way, has become the hallmark and selling point of the franchise)

 

Now you're throwing out "cheat" as what it is. It is not manipulating the game's code, nor is it actually violating the rules of the game (as far as we know them). It is the unexpected (or maybe not) result of a different things producing an unusual result.

Edited June 1, 2013 by TheChaffeemancer

[Mediave]

Yes it is, skiing in tribes was originally a glitch that happened when players held... the jump button was it? They would basically ski around the map. It was never intended to be in the game, this is why it is relevant. (Skiing, by the way, has become the hallmark and selling point of the franchise)

 

Now you're throwing out "cheat" as what it is. It is not manipulating the game's code, nor is it actually violating the rules of the game (as far as we know them). It is the unexpected (or maybe not) result of a different things producing an unusual result.

 

Since when is exploiting not cheating?

 

Also, on the subject of skiing, I always thought that was using your jetpack against a slope to move up it faster?  (I haven't played Tribes in probably...8-9 years >.o)

Edited June 1, 2013 by Mediave

[holdenmcclure]

That being said, I don't like when people cheat to go faster. 

 

You use all these nasty words to describe sliding around, but it doesn't make it seem worse than it actually is.

[holdenmcclure]

Hahhahaha.   You're the best, FatalX7, never ever stop what you're currently doing.  Selective quoting out of context, straw men, flawed assumptions, imposing standards, failing to read, the whole shebang.  Do this the rest of your life, please, with family, friends, careers, romance.  It will serve you well.

 

6/10 for making me laugh for a good minute or so.  Don't bother replying.

 

I warned people about FatalX7, but they didn't listen I tellsya

[Mediave]

You use all these nasty words to describe sliding around, but it doesn't make it seem worse than it actually is.

 

Doing slide attacks isn't the issue, doing them repeatedly (and obviously it is a bug/glitch, considering it only really works with fast, dual weapons) to string them together for rapid movement, is the issue.  Aside from the occasional wall run/parkour shortcuts, sprinting should be the fastest way for a frame to move around.  When that isn't the case, obviously something needs to be looked at here.  If you use some wavedash exploit or whatever variation you want, why should we even bother having sprint in the first place?

[Grimpiggy]

I do it all the time without macros as I have no idea how to macro.

[Unibot]

Doing slide attacks isn't the issue, doing them repeatedly (and obviously it is a bug/glitch, considering it only really works with fast, dual weapons) to string them together for rapid movement, is the issue.  Aside from the occasional wall run/parkour shortcuts, sprinting should be the fastest way for a frame to move around.  When that isn't the case, obviously something needs to be looked at here.  If you use some wavedash exploit or whatever variation you want, why should we even bother having sprint in the first place?

 

Sprinting should not be the fastest. It's the simpliest way to move faster, but it should not be the fastest. Or people won't even bother with advanced moving technique.

And wall run is broken.

[shukudai]

Works with single weapons as well, I used it a lot with Cronus.

 

Sprnting gives you far greater finesse and just about complete control over where you're going, and is required to pick items up.  Knifeskating over an item will ignore it.  What we have here is an opportunity to develop multiple options for mobility, some that would be better than others in certain situations.  Wouldn't you prefer this outcome over a more limited set of abilities?

[Bakim0n0]

 I doubt that you actually read what LuxAngel7 or many of these other posters are really talking about if all you took from all this discussion was that.

 

 Sarcasm doesn't suit you in this case.

 

Edit: By the way, I pointed out some of the stuff being talked about in regards to this stuff. I also showed off a few videos of it to DERebecca. I'm not sure what DE's opinion or decision is yet, but they DO know all about it. 

I actually did read what they said, I was being sarcastic because it's one of the most reliable ways to actually keep pace with the group for slower frames on top of being an interesting mechanic to many despite it perhaps not looking fantastic. I was commenting on these constant calls for removing parts of the game that others find fun mixed with the repeated commentary to actually make the frames more similar in performance overall (it has been commented on in this thread iirc, not going to dig through it again).

Seriously, it's extremely annoying to use a slower frame in combat with frames like Loki that zip so far ahead that by the time you catch up the room is cleared. I understand there is complaints that the slow frames can move as fast as the quick frames; but these comments are made by players who obviously don't know how to use the mechanic seeing as how Loki can do this trick many times faster than Rhino (this has been tested) considering the base movement / sprint statistics actually *DO* influence this and I instead want people to self regulate rather than nerfing everything that comes up.

Why?

1.) It takes away time from the devs to do more meaningful things

2.) It literally takes a dump on those of use who use this mechanic appropriately

I'm really tired of seeing game mechanics get changed because a few people abuse them when really it doesn't have *that* big of a change in the way players behave. Perfect example of this is the 1/2 the group at extraction thing... Yeah, it does cut down on it somewhat, or at least keeps one person from pushing 3 people out of a map, but it doesn't, at all, stop the rushing... and it doesn't, at all, deal with two rushers in the group.

Instead of nerfing this aspect (as well as the aspect being commented on in the thread) we SHOULD have gotten tools to be more selective on who we group with.

Don't give us glass ceilings, give us a better tool-kit.

[Hazzerone]

I personally think this minor animation cancelling bug is fantastic for the gameplay.

 

My main frame is Loki and it's very frustrating to go from such a high mobility frame and then use Frost, for example.

 

It has to be noted that overall this method of transport isn't THAT gamebreaking as you do not have complete control over your distance when slide attacking and also that the slide attack itself is completely linear so it's really only good for straight line travel. Although, with a bit of practice I've become pretty good with changing directions overall.

 

These seemingly meanless movement methods actually contribute a lot to the gameplay and overall enjoyment factor.

 

There are many examples in games where "abusing" movement techniques are prevailent, a few of my favourite examples:

 

Fighting games such as Marvel vs Capcom and Tekken where movement known as "wavedashing" is possible, along with Virtua Fighter which has something known as "box-stepping" or "ShinZ". Here is an example: 

 

Socom 2 had a strange kind of "fish dive" (performed by diving to prone then cancelling this by tapping crouch) that would greatly help you stay alive during gunfights, and made gunfights more intense overall. An example is at 3:25 in this video: 

. After Socom 2, this mechanic was pretty much abolished and the result was much more boring gameplay and the players really did not like the removal of this mechanic.

 

GunZ, although I never really got into it, is notorious for its crazy movement which is possible due to animation cancels. I think this is a pretty good video to illustrate it: 

 

If infinite slide slash was to be removed from the game, it would really hinder the fast paced gameplay and my enjoyment for the game would quickly diminish.

 

If this was to be removed, I think it would definitely be a step in the wrong direction for this game.

[Twistank]

It looks like abomination and it makes anyone using it looks like a fool that would do anything to be faster. It should be fixed.

[Bakim0n0]

It looks like abomination and it makes anyone using it looks like a fool that would do anything to be faster. It should be fixed.

So it should be fixed because you don't like it?

[ReiganCross]

Plus it looks completely ridiculous unless someone wants me to believe that we are space bumber car ninjas that hover endlessly sliding every which way as if our shields were made of butter.

Like that Warcraft 3 Mod, Ninja Slider! Anything that reminds me of Ninja Slider is golden! =P

[Alohoe]

i have a logitech g600 mouse and i do this quite easily without a macro.  creative use of game mechanics imo and not everyone uses a macro. just my 2 cents.

[CormacMccarthy]

all you do is run, then crouch and press E, whats so hard about that? plus its fun. . . i dont understand the issue.

[TennoSkoom]

I use melee charge on faster melee weapons like the zorens to get around faster, it's especially useful on slower frames like frost and rhino. I don't use macros, melee charging is easy and doesn't require chaining, though combining it with a wallrun or wall-jump does make it more effective. I don't see this as a problem.  faster weapons will launch you- slower weapons will slow you down. It's fine as is (though i expect the distance you're launched with weapons like fangs or zorens will be understandably nerf'd at some point)

 

Forgive me if i'm taking the OP's post wrong but my kneejerk reaction was the following:

 

Yeah, lets go ahead and have DE nerf this as well<insert sarcasm indicator here>

while they're at it- they can ruin more movement mechanics by adding more needless input delays  as stop-gap fixes that will further frustrate players when they're trying to jump, slide, or otherwise move to avoid an enemy or get around from one point of the map to the other.

 

Lets instead make everything a walking tank removing all semblance of 'fun mobility' from the game.

 

Personally i'm frustrated enough with the movement controls' degradation over-time. From closed beta to now every other patch seems to have made fundamental movement worse. I was about ready to rage-quit in 7.11 because of the auto-wallrun issue that was introduced, thankfully that's been all but completely fixed. (it still happens on rare occasion)

 

Don't get me wrong, i fully agree that wave-dashing needed to be removed- what's not okay is that normal movement suffered as a result of the delays that were added to prevent wave-dashing.

 

As a note to the OP, melee charge attacks drain a huge amount of stamina, as other posters have mentioned.

 

EDIT: A recent patch quietly fixed some of the movement mechanic issues- players can now jump when standing on the cryopod and when near ledges. Thank you DE- while this should've been put in patch notes somewhere- it's still a fix i'd been waiting a long time for.

Edited June 1, 2013 by AnalogAnomaly

[TraumaHunter]

Stop bumping this abysmal topic please.

[LazyTemplar]

Regardless of what ultimately DE decides to do or not do, they need to make it clear to the player base what to expect.  

[hiryu64]

Frankly, I'm appalled at the amount of people defending this exploit as a legitimate tactic, and this is coming from a religious user of said technique. All of this reminds me of the debates over Super Smash Bros. Melee's wavedashing. An exploit that wormed its way into high-level metagame that people defend as a legitimate maneuver, you have people going so far as to state that it was the developers' intention to keep it in. Generally, any sort of animation-cancelling technique is almost NEVER intentional. If you're going to abuse this technique, at least be ready to admit that you're exploiting.

 

I'm seeing a lot of slippery slopes and strawmen being used against people calling for wavedashing's removal. Nothing has to suffer by patching up this exploit, and it wouldn't be the end of the world if it were patched. Nobody will remove all of the fun from this game if it's patched, and nobody's claiming that the game should be greatly slowed down if so (well, maybe some are, but that's besides my point).

 

Hell, you wanna patch this up with the least amount of pain possible? Introduce a check on dash attacking and slide jumping to prevent them from being used within three seconds of each other. Bam. exploit solved, but the techniques are still there for everyone to use and enjoy. Don't think this idea is good? Offer your own suggestions to fix it up. But defending it by saying it shouldn't be fixed isn't getting us anywhere. And if the argument is that the exploit in and of itself is what makes it fun, then...well, I don't know what to say.

 

However, one thing remains: we DESPERATELY need an official statement regarding this exploit, otherwise we're all just spinning our wheels. If they decide to embrace it like what happened with Tribes, then that's DE's decision and it is finally legitimized. But in the meantime, let's not pretend that it's legitimate. Instead, let's focus on suggesting ways to solve the problem.

 

EDIT: Wow, TraumaHunter. There is absolutely nothing constructive about your post. If you don't like the discussion, ignore the thread and move on.

Edited June 1, 2013 by hiryu64

[Vyaldyn]

Regardless of what ultimately DE decides to do or not do, they need to make it clear to the player base what to expect.  

Before they do it.

 

---

EDIT:

 

 

Hell, you wanna patch this up with the least amount of pain possible? Introduce a check on dash attacking and slide jumping to prevent them from being used within three seconds of each other. Bam. exploit solved, but the techniques are still there for everyone to use and enjoy. Don't think this idea is good? Offer your own suggestions to fix it up. But defending it by saying it shouldn't be fixed isn't getting us anywhere. And if the argument is that the exploit in and of itself is what makes it fun, then...well, I don't know what to say.

The solution here is to make sprinting mods a viable option over it. Currently, the sprint mods are straight out bad and barely useful. Wallrunning, and even the old, weakened wavedashing gets the job done better. That is bad.

 

 

However, one thing remains: we DESPERATELY need an official statement regarding this exploit, otherwise we're all just spinning our wheels.

I couldn't agree more.

 

 

let's focus on suggesting ways to solve the problem.

You're writing like it's a serious problem, but I fail to see that. So far, I have seen only one player using said mechanic to rush to the end faster than others. The rest have been using it to catch up with the faster players (and often faster frames, rhino/frost catching up to a loki). Perhaps the eastern Europe region is just so full of nice players.

 

Overall, the objective is to make the game as enjoyable as possible, and quite frankly, most people who actually have the ability to do this, enjoy it to some extent. Sure the infinite aspect of it could be removed but it must not be something like every other melee slide is slower like they did with wavedashing. That destroys sliding around a room slicing up enemies within.

Edited June 1, 2013 by 3ventic

[TraumaHunter]

They already have made a statement on this officially

2-3 times.

People keep bumping the topic though.   STOP BUMPING IT.

Go read their posts about the previous wave dash.  They have seen this topic too.  If they had anything more to add aside from what they have already officially said about these things then they would have added it 10 pages ago.

Stop beating the dead horse.

[hiryu64]

Would you like to provide us with a link then?

[Bakim0n0]

Hell, you wanna patch this up with the least amount of pain possible? Introduce a check on dash attacking and slide jumping to prevent them from being used within three seconds of each other. Bam. exploit solved, but the techniques are still there for everyone to use and enjoy.

Exploit solved? Check.

My gameplay style absolutely destroyed? Check.

Not all of us are run and gunners, and that's the fundamental reason I defend this; not only about using it for just raw move-speed (I can compensate for that really) but because using that mobility in tight situations for melee heavy combat is KEY; and nerfing that would almost certainly destroy gameplay value for melee specialists.

*edit*

Keep in mind, I don't really use that technique to zoom around the map at uber-high speeds; I either use it to catch up to the group on slow frames or I use it to stay alive and dishing out damage in melee combat. IMHO this is really NO WORSE than just pressing 4 repeatedly to get kills and I in *no way* advocate putting huge cooldown timers on damage skills.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[Teleo]

Just remove the ability to macro. I do it without one and everyone's fingers need to be as sore as mine so they stop doing it too often.

 

Also, game needs to be faster. I need more speed mods.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Teleo

[hiryu64]

Exploit solved? Check.

My gameplay style absolutely destroyed? Check.

Not all of us are run and gunners, and that's the fundamental reason I defend this; not only about using it for just raw move-speed (I can compensate for that really) but because using that mobility in tight situations for melee heavy combat is KEY; and nerfing that would almost certainly destroy gameplay value for melee specialists.

 

So your gameplay style relies on an exploit? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I just want to paraphrase and understand what you're saying. It sounds like you're telling me that you rely on this exploit and have centered your combat strategy around it.