Please Remove The New Version Of Wave Dashing: Infinite Melee Slide Attack

[Luxangel7]

The mod to increase run speed is SO BAD!!! It is the poorest of all mods in the game... Even Rhino runs slow with it at max... So no matter what the other Warframes that are slow as all hell need some kind of move to keep up...

 

I don't think anyone will argue with you that techniques for slower frames to keep up shouldnt be removed.

 

However here we're talking about even the slowest frames easil speeding by fast frames with the speed mods because of this exploit.

 

Yesterday I was using excalibur on Saturn with maxed out rush mod, and a frost literally goes flying by me because he's using this technique.

 

Call it what you will, exploit, glitch, emergent gameplay, unicorn rainbows, w/e. There's something wrong with that. 

[Deek]

What really annoys me about these kinds of topics is that the OPs usually have not considered two really important aspects of the subject that they are addressing: The cause behind the behaviour and the consequences of the change.

 

Please ask this question, "Why do people use this 'exploit?'"

 

Let us imagine a perfectly likely scenario. A Rhino arrives in a game and is joined by a Loki. The Loki frame has a much higher sprint speed than the Rhino. As a result, the Loki frame tears away ahead of the Rhino and races into the distance. The Rhino tries to chase the Loki to the objective and then to the extraction point. Along the way he never fires his gun once -- There's no enemies for him to fight. The Loki has engaged them first with his superior speed and dispatched them effortlessly. He arrives at extraction with 5 seconds on the timer. It's just him and the Loki in the game, so the timer started as soon as the Loki entered the extraction zone. He barely made it by the skin of his teeth. He gets into his jelly mold to the jeering snipes of the Loki frame, who in the lobby points out his abysmal kill score. The Rhino quits the session.

 

Is this fun?

 

Games are about having fun. In a game like Warframe, the unique fun comes from fighting enemies in your own style with your own frame with your own weapons. You level them. You put effort into them. You customize them the way you want to.

 

So how much fun did the Rhino have?

 

If the fun comes from all of the above, then the Rhino didn't get to have any fun at all. The Loki denied his fun by simply being fast.

 

This is a perfectly plausible situation, that I daresay a lot of people have actually encountered before. So what is the solution?

 

For an inventive player, looking for ways around such problems comes naturally. When such a player sees that Dual Zorens can improve their overall speed to the point where they can catch up to the Loki, they wouldn't hesitate to jump at the chance to level the playing field. Such an action is natural if the goal is to have fun. Eliminate the disparity between frames and the fun balance is restored as well.

 

That is why wavedashing and helicoptering are NECESSARY.

 

In an environment where there is a need for speed, such a boost is required to actually level the playing field.

 

And so what do you suggest, OP?

 

What are the consequences of your suggestion?

 

By removing the tools that restore the balance, you once again relegate slower frames to the back of the group. It doesn't matter if they can spring off walls. If they manage to beat you, you'll complain and have it removed. Literally that is your argument.

 

Rhino comes up with a wallrun route that allows him to overtake faster frames such as Loki or Ash.

Rhino should not be faster than Loki or Ash.

That is not the developer's intention and it negates the use of sprint mods.

Therefore wallrunning should be removed.

 

Is this not your exact reasoning?

 

So, what are the consequences of your logic?

 

-Slower frames are not entitled to fun. They should be slower than fast frames and not have a chance to engage the enemy.

-Any movement mechanics that allow slow frames to catch up should be removed from the game in order to preserve the validity of sprint mods.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the answer is the Rhino maxes and equips Rush and Marathon mods, which means taking of better tanking mods just to keep up if not overtake, given the Loki hasn't equipped rush and marathon.

 

yeh 1 Rhino here that doesn't use exploits and has fun.

and im neither anti or pro on this subject.

if some people feel they need to do it to feel good, let them be. or build up and catch up, or use the so said " exploits". if the DE are ok with it they are so do it, or don't. end point please yourself to enjoy the game I would think (as long as your not using cheats or third party tools)

[LazyTemplar]

if the DE are ok with it they are so do it

 

We don't know if they are okay with it though.  =P  

[hiryu64]

Looks like today's hotfix killed knifeskating. Now the only exploitative method of fast traveling is gimped wavedashing (sprint, slide, wait a second, sprint, slide, repeat). Thanks, DE!

[Bakim0n0]

Looks like today's hotfix killed knifeskating. Now the only exploitative method of fast traveling is gimped wavedashing (sprint, slide, wait a second, sprint, slide, repeat). Thanks, DE!

Not seeing any difference on my end outside of maybe having to hold shift a little longer.

[Bakim0n0]

Question, did you have the Kunai / Despair equipped when you were trying it? Those weapons actually nullify the forward momentum of melee attacks and you cannot skate with them.

[Nerokerubina]

Welp yet another thing ruined by casual players.

[SAYO]

What if we gave a flat speed boost to the knifeskating maneouvre?

So the quicker weapons like ethers will not increase knifeskating to unacceptable speeds.

So far if you use a scythe or even glaive, I find the speed very nice.

 

As an example, I have Frost and Banshee. In most random parties I barely get to kill anything

as a Frost because the faster frames are always ahead of me. I just end up running behind them

barely using my weapons. If I see some material and go grab it, I often fall even further behind.

The only way to catch up was for me to swing/dash. When I catch up, I stop using it because I

enjoy playing with other people.

 

I have not read all 17 pages of the discussion, mostly browsed the first pages and the last pages.

But I feel the original post was very one-sided and did not consider why some people use that technique.

I feel that if the heavier frames need to upgrade all those speed mods just to see some enemies, they 

get less mod capacity to enjoy the frame's actual powers. While the faster frames have natural speed and

get to invest mod points into powers.

 

That is why I proposed not a flat out ban on the technique, but just reducing/flattening out the effect

from faster weapons. When I do all my sliding/flips/swing, it usually ends up the same speed or slower

as a faster frame.

 

I hope I was clear and offer a different view on this matter.

Thanks

[Luxangel7]

Welp yet another thing ruined by casual players.

 

400+ hours on steam so far.

 

Most of my vacation spent playing this game.

 

All frames unlocked, ranked to 30, skills maxed, almost level 8 mastery.

 

But by all means, your 8 word post surely addressed and invalidated 17 pages of forum posts. I'm certain of it in fact.

 

Honestly, if you disagree, at least put forward a reason why in a polite manner. That comment was about as useful as an umbrella in a plane.

[Brasten]

Looks like today's hotfix killed knifeskating. Now the only exploitative method of fast traveling is gimped wavedashing (sprint, slide, wait a second, sprint, slide, repeat). Thanks, DE!

Don't know what your talking about. I can still knifestake just fine. Glitch sprint still seems to apply to Crouch Lock style knifestaking.

[Bakim0n0]

Don't know what your talking about. I can still knifestake just fine. Glitch sprint still seems to apply to Crouch Lock style knifestaking.

This.

It's not effecting proper Knifeskating it's effecting jump roll chaining.

[Nerokerubina]

400+ hours on steam so far.

 

Most of my vacation spent playing this game.

 

All frames unlocked, ranked to 30, skills maxed, almost level 8 mastery.

 

But by all means, your 8 word post surely addressed and invalidated 17 pages of forum posts. I'm certain of it in fact.

 

Honestly, if you disagree, at least put forward a reason why in a polite manner. That comment was about as useful as an umbrella in a plane.

 

Sure, this method of dashing helps players, like myself farm planets quicker. I can farm M Prime an hour and a half quicker due to this ability then if it were gone. 

 

This ability also helps me on my Frost Prime where I have no speed increase and someone goes down, I can quickly come to their aid, pop my Snowglobe, resurrect them and quickly go back to protecting the pod in defense or continuing to help my team.

 

I can't count how many times this has helped me save fellow team members.

[Brasten]

This.

It's not effecting proper Knifeskating it's effecting jump roll chaining.

You mean Sprint >> Crouch >> Jump (while sliding, for flip) >> Crouch (while in air, jump kick) >> land slide for a second >> Jump (for flip) >> repeat?

That Jump roll chaining? Nope not affected either.

[Bakim0n0]

You mean Sprint >> Crouch >> Jump (while sliding, for flip) >> Crouch (while in air, jump kick) >> land slide for a second >> Jump (for flip) >> repeat?

That Jump roll chaining? Nope not affected either.

It is effected because you used to be able to chain right into another forward jump roll basically as you hit the ground... now you just have to wait an extra half second or so... big whoop.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[Brasten]

It is effected because you used to be able to chain right into another forward jump roll basically as you hit the ground... now you just have to wait an extra half second or so... big whoop.

..... Still not seeing it. Stuff in the way and miss timing keys has a bigger impact. Nope, still not buying what Hiryu64 is selling. DE hasn't put in a "fix" yet.

My view still stands, the main issue is the speed and dependence on specific weapons. If knifestaking was all the same speed and was independent of weapon, as long as it wasn't functionally faster an unmodded Loki spriting, that would reasonable compromise.

The side issue is that the different warframe speeds aren't really a good balance point. Never was and never will be.

[MylesShort]

While I don't macro or even know how i'd begin to do that, slide dashing is extremely easy provided you play with a controller.
All I need to do is press my left thumbstick inwards (L3) and hit RB/ A for Melee or jump.

Considering how UN-"finger-numbing" this is provided you use a controller, I feel something should be changed slightly, I never run out of stamina and thanks to the controller it's super simple to abuse this.

[Brasten]

While I don't macro or even know how i'd begin to do that, slide dashing is extremely easy provided you play with a controller.

All I need to do is press my left thumbstick inwards (L3) and hit RB/ A for Melee or jump.

Considering how UN-"finger-numbing" this is provided you use a controller, I feel something should be changed slightly, I never run out of stamina and thanks to the controller it's super simple to abuse this.

If you mutli-mouse button or even just bind Melee to Right-Click it easy to do on a keyboard as well.

Crouch Lock: Control

Spring: Spacebar

Melee Mouse-2/Right-Mouse (for me its left side button, mouse-4)

If you have to just slow down the combo and slide for a second to make sure you keep pressing Crouch-Lock and Melee in the correct order.

[hiryu64]

Bakim0n0 and Brasten, both of you add me. I want to see for myself that you two can still do it. Unless there's another way to perform this that I'm not aware, I'm calling BS on both of you. I've relied heavily on this and am no longer able to perform it. I'm using the same weapon set I was using it with before the patch. I would really be interested in seeing either or both of you perform it in person.

[Brasten]

hiryu64, on 06 Jun 2013 - 1:21 PM, said:

Bakim0n0 and Brasten, both of you add me. I want to see for myself that you two can still do it. Unless there's another way to perform this that I'm not aware, I'm calling BS on both of you. I've relied heavily on this and am no longer able to perform it. I'm using the same weapon set I was using it with before the patch. I would really be interested in seeing either or both of you perform it in person.

Done. I'd make another video like my sliding with hammers but I don't quite feel like it.

[Minaide]

Still can be done easily.

This should never be removed.

Rush and stamina mods still help in fighting tough battles because you can sprint and shoot while doing this move will just kill you.

Since there is no tough boss in this game as of yet, you could try doing this move and pvp a guy who actually has good rush/stamina mods.

You will be killed in no time while also having a hard time hitting him if you don't use this move and try to shoot him.

Also rush/stamina mods help in wall running, if you want to complain this move makes rush/stamina mods useless then say that to the thousands of useless mods out there like warmcoat.

 

Done. I'd make another video like my sliding with hammers but I don't quite feel like it.

You mean fragor? i would like to see a video.I can't seem to do it on fragor, not as fast as dual zorens.

[Brasten]

[Minaide]

i'm pretty sure dual ethers/zorens is faster.

One jump slide attack would probably means you have to hammer slide 3 times to cover the same distance.

You got my hopes then let it down, i expected the speed of dual ethers/zorens.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Minaide

[Brasten]

i'm pretty sure dual ethers is faster.

One jump slide attack would probably means you have to hammer slide 3 times to cover the same distance.

You got my hopes then let it down, i expected the speed of dual ethers.

Never said it was faster :P

Just that it can be done. You should have noticed in the video that the unmodded fragor actually stutters out on moment from time to time.

*edit*

Again this is why I don't like Knifestaking in its current form. It is VERY weapon dependent. Which if you want Knifestaking as true feature is no fair in the least. It should not be hidden benefit of "fast" weapons.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Brasten

[shukudai]

Never said it was faster :P

Just that it can be done. You should have noticed in the video that the unmodded fragor actually stutters out on moment from time to time.

*edit*

Again this is why I don't like Knifestaking in its current form. It is VERY weapon dependent. Which if you want Knifestaking as true feature is no fair in the least. It should not be hidden benefit of "fast" weapons.

 

Well there are already plenty of hidden benefits to specific weapons.  The fact that all non-heavy weapons can run and charge attack (heavies can, but will stop to perform the animation)...  the fact that dual zorens often don't need to sheathe due to their obscenely fast recovery...  the fact that people who main sidearms and melee get a massive advantage in that their weapon of choice is always available, even if holding datamass...  the fact that latron/latron prime is able to...  well I probably won't talk about that one, people will cry exploit.  There are plenty more examples of such hidden benefits, and I think the diversity is a good thing.

 

&*$$genising the moveset would turn the game into glorified pacman (replace fruit with mods, ghosts with ancients, corridors with spaceships).

 

edit: really DE, i can't write h0mogenising? lol.

Edited June 6, 2013 by shukudai

[Mak_Gohae]

 

That made me dizzy. Seriously.