Concerns Of A Zephyr User, The Update 16.7 And 16.8 Revival: Now With Even More Turbulence Ranting!

[Kristorkian]

TBH, I haven't got much trouble with Zephyr.

 

I picked her up as a second frame and spent my first 250 or so hours working purely on her because I couldn't put her down, and now another 250 hours later she's still my most used frame. She's my most reliable one and the only one so far I've dumped this much work into.

 

I can take her into late T4 and raids and barely get scratched. Turbulence is reliable enough for me, and considering she sits at 1100 health and shields (1250 or so with a Vigor thrown onto maxed Redirection / Vitality) I don't think it needs to deflect EVERYTHING. You've got stuff to back it up just in case, and you also have the absolute freedom of movement to get away from a bombard missile once it's been deflected. The only thing I really want would be for at least one tornado to spawn on my cursor.

 

I read your original topics about this when you first posted them, and there were plenty of people who said otherwise about Turbulence being broken. It looks like a split enough topic as it is. Some people have absolutely no problems with her, and some people think she's the one that needs a ground up rework. I'm of the former, and will argue that a lot of the problems people have with Zephyr (overshooting tailwind, less effective turbulence) are purely on them and how they build her.

 

If you build for max range so that your Turbulence cover pretty much everything and Grineer will never hit you. Your Tornadoes will suffer, but Tornadoes aren't meant for damage anyway. That 30k sounds great on paper, but bodies fly out of the top, the tornadoes themselves are unpredictable and uncontrollable (they're tornadoes, they shouldn't be controlled past where you spawn them), and you'll more often than not find them spinning in the corner of the room doing nothing. I've never heard of anyone using them for damage purely because of that--it's used for emergency cc, otherwise you'll piss off your teammates that have to wait ~30 seconds for that last enemy to drop from the sky so the round can end. If you don't build for max range, then your Turbulence will take a hit, and you'll have to compensate for that with high health and shields. Simple as.

 

I've introduced many new players on my friends list to her, and it doesn't sound like they've got these massive problems either. I understand where they come from, but a good chunk of people I've encountered both on the forums and subreddit disagree. Even a good chunk of the people who replied to your original posts on Zephyr disagreed. Regardless, I'd appreciate if you stopped acting like you speak for every Zephyr user--partly because I disagree with what you're putting on the table, and partly because you sound incredibly entitled, and that tone in itself takes away some of the credibility in your post. You don't, and what you're asking for is a massive rework.

[nekrojiji]

 

did you at least read ... what the OP, and a lot later I, said!?

 

It works with unpredictable errors.

 

You say you like it so much ... did you try playing solo .... to actualy see if what grineer shoot doesn't reach you!? Any frame survives perfectly if other frames kill anything before they can target you.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

TBH, I haven't got much trouble with Zephyr.

I picked her up as a second frame and spent my first 250 or so hours working purely on her because I couldn't put her down, and now another 250 hours later she's still my most used frame. She's my most reliable one and the only one so far I've dumped this much work into.

I can take her into late T4 and raids and barely get scratched. Turbulence is reliable enough for me, and considering she sits at 1100 health and shields (1250 or so with a Vigor thrown onto maxed Redirection / Vitality) I don't think it needs to deflect EVERYTHING. You've got stuff to back it up just in case, and you also have the absolute freedom of movement to get away from a bombard missile once it's been deflected. The only thing I really want would be for at least one tornado to spawn on my cursor.

I use Zephyr pretty much exclusively for high level void missions, and Bombards are really the only thing that give me any trouble. Zephyr is certainly not a weak frame, but that doesn't mean she isn't mechanically flawed or in need of polish. Zephyr is easily one of the most neglected and ignored frames by DE, and if you read the extension to this thread in the Bug Reporting section, you can see just how mechanically flawed she really is.

I read your original topics about this when you first posted them, and there were plenty of people who said otherwise about Turbulence being broken. It looks like a split enough topic as it is. Some people have absolutely no problems with her, and some people think she's the one that needs a ground up rework. I'm of the former, and will argue that a lot of the problems people have with Zephyr (overshooting tailwind, less effective turbulence) are purely on them and how they build her.

My original topics on Turbulence were created before the latest enemy accuracy change that broke Turbulence against hitscan weapons. I talked mainly about how Turbulence's intended mechanics were imbalanced between factions. Mostly, I was pushing for fairness for the sake of fairness. Now with this bug that was introduced three months ago, I'm pushing for fairness for the sake of making the game work correctly.

If you build for max range so that your Turbulence cover pretty much everything and Grineer will never hit you. Your Tornadoes will suffer, but Tornadoes aren't meant for damage anyway. That 30k sounds great on paper, but bodies fly out of the top, the tornadoes themselves are unpredictable and uncontrollable (they're tornadoes, they shouldn't be controlled past where you spawn them), and you'll more often than not find them spinning in the corner of the room doing nothing. I've never heard of anyone using them for damage purely because of that--it's used for emergency cc, otherwise you'll &!$$ off your teammates that have to wait ~30 seconds for that last enemy to drop from the sky so the round can end. If you don't build for max range, then your Turbulence will take a hit, and you'll have to compensate for that with high health and shields. Simple as.

This would be true before the last enemy accuracy change three months ago. Now, I've had to use multiple revives when I solo a Lech Kirl assassinate, at least on some of my unluckier runs. Grineer are perfectly fine with murdering me straight through my Turbulence, and the current bug just makes it far easier for them to do so.

I've posted threads about this bug previously, or I wouldn't be complaining that three months have passed with no fix. The feedback I received about the bug was rarely negative. At this point, it's a pretty widely accepted fact within the warframe community that Turbulence is broken v.s. hitscan weapons.

I've introduced many new players on my friends list to her, and it doesn't sound like they've got these massive problems either. I understand where they come from, but a good chunk of people I've encountered both on the forums and subreddit disagree. Even a good chunk of the people who replied to your original posts on Zephyr disagreed. Regardless, I'd appreciate if you stopped acting like you speak for every Zephyr user--partly because I disagree with what you're putting on the table, and partly because you sound incredibly entitled, and that tone in itself takes away some of the credibility in your post. You don't, and what you're asking for is a massive rework.

It's funny that you say I act like I speak for all Zephyr users, since for the most part, the changes in the OP are the most popular Zephyr changes I've seen the community make. Very few parts of the changes were actually made by me. I kind of do speak for all Zephyr users, since these are their changes.

If you consider that you are more or less the first person to take up any real argument against me on this thread, I think that at least for the most part, the community wants these changes. Part of that is because these changes were suggested by the community. Part of that is because I learned from the mistakes of my previous threads. The reason so many people disagreed with me on my previous Turbulence threads was because before the bug was introduced, people were only having minor problems with Turbulence, and I was mostly just pushing for fairness for the sake of fairness. Now, I can prove with in-game testing that Turbulence is genuinely not functioning as intended, and to an extremely severe degree.

Edited May 5, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[Impact6]

Posted Today, 03:59 PM

 

4G3NT_0R4NG3

"Now with this bug that was introduced three months ago, I'm pushing for fairness for the sake of making the game work correctly."

 

THIS especially.

 

4G3NT_0R4NG3, you have my greatest respects for keeping this up and still being able to be patient and well informed. Grazi.

[Kristorkian]

-snip-

 

In this thread I'm the first to disagree, but the entire population of Zephyr users isn't on here. I haven't met many people who visit the forums (don't know they exist or just don't bother), and all I'm saying is that I've seen the same amount of people who haven't got a problem with how she functions currently.

 

Since you have no problem against Corpus or Corrupted, then your problem is the Grineer aimbot that everybody's been on about for ages now. That's what needs to be fixed, not Turbulence.

[Impact6]

 

Since you have no problem against Corpus or Corrupted, then your problem is the Grineer aimbot that everybody's been on about for ages now. That's what needs to be fixed, not Turbulence.

As far as I know now, Turbulence on Grineer works only as intended if you sacrifice your 'Zephyr build' for Maximum range. If this criteria is not met. Turbulence is doesn't work, meaning that when you battle grineer with a Zephyr at that point you basically have 3 skills. That's just a penalty.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

My PM to DERebecca just received a reply.

 

"Interesting. Thanks for the report. Will see if it can get attention this week or next."

 

VICTORY IS MINE!!!

 

Batman's dead parents just came back to life.

[ExPotato]

+1

[(PSN)AnishAnkit]

The was for before. I had a friend who bought all the oxium needed for zepher with plat and the next day was the update when ospreys dropped a lot more.

[(PSN)abb12355]

My PM to DERebecca just received a reply.

"Interesting. Thanks for the report. Will see if it can get attention this week or next."

VICTORY IS MINE!!!

Batman's dead parents just came back to life.

Really? Finally a response from the DE. Fix our loved zephyr

[MissFairy]

My PM to DERebecca just received a reply.

 

"Interesting. Thanks for the report. Will see if it can get attention this week or next."

 

VICTORY IS MINE!!!

 

Batman's dead parents just came back to life.

Great I hope she will be fixed ^^,

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

With 16.4.5.1 not including a Turbulence fix, I think it's pretty safe to say a fix should come either next week or the week after. If not, it should be included in the myriad of bug fixes that will undoubtedly come with U16.5. If it isn't fixed by 16.5, I think I'll reply to the PM I got asking for a status update on the fix.

[climatiseur]

What I see in this thread is a vocal minority trying to either get their favorite frame made OP, or trying to get their own desired abilities added to a frame in game. If you want a frame with hover mode, go ask for it in Fan Concepts. De didn't "forget" to add it, nobody would forget to add an ability that affects gameplay so drastically. They clearly never wanted in the first place. And for God's sake, Turbulence is the result of bugs and lazy coding, stop using it as justification that DE purposely wanted Zephyr to have an inconsistent defensive ability in order to get Zephyr replaced with a frame that you came up with. Why would anybody purposely design an ability to be bad?

 

So often I hear the argument of "Birdframe/Windframe therefore it must have a hover/flying mode for it to live up to its thematic design." Except it's not even correct thematically, regardless of what you want to call it, the "flight" mode will involve being suspended still in the air, a.k.a. hovering, which neither birds nor wind actually do. Birds stay in the air by constantly moving, wind is the movement of air itself, they don't stay still. There's no such thing as "still wind" and the only bird that hovers is the hummingbird. Zephyr is most definitely not a hummingbird, or they would have made her much squishier and given her flower based powers. Even with her vaguely bird-like appearance, you can still tell that she looks more like a bird of prey than a nectar-sucker. Zephyr is a fighter jet, or a stealth bomber, not a helicopter.

 

 

That's not to say that Zephyr doesn't need work though. Her abilities are quite situational and do not show her strengths properly. Indeed, Zephyr does a terrible job of "raining death from above," But what's missing isn't the "above" part, it's the "raining death" part. The fact that Zephyr has two movement abilities indicates that the devs intended for her to dash quickly through the air, not stay in one place while spamming Ogris rockets. But both of them are lacking in controlability, which is essential for players to be able to feel freedom of movement. Playing Zephyr should make the player feel like a raptor swooping down to grab its prey before tearing it to pieces in the air. Zephyr should be like playing Soldier in TF2 with a Direct Hit, Market Gardener, and Gunboats. Her movement should be fluid but at the same time extremely quick, rewarding the player for accuracy and reaction time during flight, as well as mayhem to anyone she lands on. Make her require more skill to play, not less!

Interestingly, I see your view points also applicable to your own suggestion.

 

Yes, when we give suggestions, of course we say what we would like to see to be implemented on the frame. What do you expect? We give suggestions that we DON'T want to be implemented on the frame?  What people are doing in this thread is basically what many threads on the forums do. That's what the forums do. You may not agree to our suggestions, but this point you give seems contradict to the aim of sharing different points of view on the forums, which you also did in the same post.

 

Besides, I don't think it's anybody's position to say "We are the majority" or "You are the minorities". Do you realize how contradicted your post was?

 

I just found out, you deliberately created this account to reply this thread and delete the account....why would you do that? Why don't you just use your active account to give your suggestions? 

In this thread, there are many other disagreeing OP 's view, but seldom would see this being OP or so. With you as the exception. Would it be that you want to keep your favorite frame's "status" among others so you are so desperately feared by the suggested changes that you considerd "OP"? 

Of course, it's merely an assumption.

 

 

 

Let's see, here are the things that a hover mode would actually provide: immunity to infested/melee units/ground hazards, and give you bigger LoS. Only one of these is an actual benefit, which can also be achieved just by standing on a box or coptering. In orther words, it would be comparable to Super Jump in terms of uselessness. Bigger LoS would actually be more detrimental than helpful, since it also allows more enemies to see you, and therefore allow more enemies to shoot you, while not providing any defensive benefits at all. Getting shot 10 feet in the air is no different from getting shot on the ground.

 

A free flight mode would either allow you to avoid all enemy abilities by simply staying out of range (OP and not going to happen unless they implement an enemy specifically designed to pull Zephyr back to the ground, in which case it would be useless again), or it would be no different from having a hover mode, depending on how high they raise the skybox limits.

 

Another contradiction. You say getting shot in air is no different than on the ground, and then you say it's OP because no one can drag you back the ground. Come on. Tail wind can lead Zephry to high grounds places and won't be drag back to the ground either. You also say it yourself in the former paragraph. 

 

What differeces between the current Zephry and the suggested hover mode is that, combining with her kit, she can plays one more role in team, that is a distraction in air. She hover in the air to attract the enemies fire, while using her naturally high shield and health and turbulance to minimize damage taken. Similar traits can also be seen in the originaly Tornados CC ability. With the suggested hover mode being an energy draining mechanics, I don't see how it can be overpowered. It certainly gives more than what the current 1st and 2nd ability do -  mobility and small damage.

 

I wanted to say more, but seeing you already deleted the account and won't be replying with this identity, I don't really bother. Seeing that Rebecca already notice this thread, you just want to try your very best to avoid the suggestions being viewed positively. But hey, the suggestions are never OP and I find your motive and means to do it really aversive.

Edited May 7, 2015 by climatiseur

[Mehbah]

remember that Zephyr has less reliable powers because she has superior base stats.  The highest Health and Shields (at 150 base each) and faster movement than many other frames as well.

 

While the strong shield is very useful, the pitiful 15 armor that you mentioned means that her effective health is much lower compared to most other frames. It also means that restoring that health once it is lost takes a lot more pickups or restores. Not to mention that, at high levels, shields and health are almost irrelevant since you will die within moments if an enemy starts shooting you. The 1.15 movement speed isn't quite that high, either.

 

If slightly higher than average movement speed and good base shields is everything you have against the Grineer and Infested, the frame is in need of some kind of buff. Her crowd control abilities definitely don't make up for it, with Tornado being unreliable and unavailable for casting for a long time after each use.

[FelisImpurrator]

Honestly, I agree with a good deal of this, but not all. Tail Wind+Dive Bomb merge? Yes. Absolutely. And make the Dive Bomb effect scale a lot better, because the game's tilesets simply aren't built for absurd heights. Tail Wind's vertical liftoff from the ground is extremely meh compared to just jumping and airdashing up, too, which makes that aspect of it borderline useless in comparison.

 

Sort of on the fence about hover mode, though. She seems perfectly fine without it. Maybe some sort of sweeping wind ability instead - a little like Sonic Boom or Pull, but perhaps with the effect of gathering scattered enemies into one place (like, say, around the cursor)? When I look at Zephyr's kit, what I actually think of is Airbending from the Avatar series - and knocking enemies around in a controlled manner is something airbenders do very well. If Zephyr's thing isn't damage but mass CC and air control, she should seriously own that role.

 

As for Turbulence... Jet Stream is fantastic, and I wouldn't change that. Haven't been in enough high level Grineer missions to find out just how broken it really is against them, but that does seem to be a very inconsistent aspect. The bit I do want to see changed, though, is Turbulence not being spherical; it makes little sense, because Turbulence isn't Tornado.

 

Tornado, on the other hand... no to having to multicast, but I would like it if they spawned where you aim. Maybe... one spawns at the center, and the other three drop surrounding it before fanning out somewhat? Agreed on tornadoes following the cursor and keeping enemies in them, though - or else they should seek enemies better than they do at present.

 

That said, the tornado augment just seems meh. Maybe change it so the mini-tornadoes can each pick up [between one and three, not sure where the balance would be for this] enemies at most, and/or have way stronger enemy homing? Perhaps for tornadoes in general, modded or unmodded, your bullets either pass through (and thus can set up multiple tornadoes in a line with elements) or - as I've seen on the Funnel Clouds wiki comments - act like a sort of bullet attractor lite, and have at least a chance of allowing bullets that hit the tornado to do damage to the enemies in them.

 

Also, just for the sake of making sense: Zephyr's abilities should do something to destabilize those damned ospreys. It makes no sense for them to just fly through raging winds without even a wobble - hi, Turbulence! - and they're already about as annoying as Morrowind's Cliff Racers.

[Impact6]

Also, just for the sake of making sense: Zephyr's abilities should do something to destabilize those damned ospreys. It makes no sense for them to just fly through raging winds without even a wobble - hi, Turbulence! - and they're already about as annoying as Morrowind's Cliff Racers.

 

Noice!

[weezedog]

It would be nice if those Flux Rifle crewmen sucked up in a tornado still didn't have 100% accuracy. Its a beam weapon so it goes right through Turbulence, and they still seem to shoot in a tornado if they are in range, and trying to hit them while they are spinning around is a bit difficult.

[FelisImpurrator]

It would be nice if those Flux Rifle crewmen sucked up in a tornado still didn't have 100% accuracy. Its a beam weapon so it goes right through Turbulence, and they still seem to shoot in a tornado if they are in range, and trying to hit them while they are spinning around is a bit difficult.

Also, if we're going by physics here, actual lasers suffer from horrible dispersion at long range even from simple things like ambient humidity. Why, exactly, would gale-force winds not affect them at all? Even considering all the advancement, there should be *some* impact on the things.

[DeadlyBard676]

DE isn't ignoring Zephyr. There are other frames(a good amount of the older ones) that need a rework much more than zephyr does. Right now they are  working on Excalibur and I hope the one they work on after him will be Ember. Just wait an be patient they will get around to making Zephyr better, they just want to get the older frames up to snuff before they work on any of the newer ones.

[TrickBox]

Even Frost and Ember, two of the most obsolete, worthless frames in the game

I don't agree with this

 

But I do with everything else, I'd like to love Zephyr but I can't !

Please fix her.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

DE isn't ignoring Zephyr. There are other frames(a good amount of the older ones) that need a rework much more than zephyr does. Right now they are  working on Excalibur and I hope the one they work on after him will be Ember. Just wait an be patient they will get around to making Zephyr better, they just want to get the older frames up to snuff before they work on any of the newer ones.

 

The main reason I say Zephyr has been ignored is because of the myriad of Zephyr's bugs that have all gone unfixed for several months at this point. You can check out this to find all of Zephyr's bugs. There are frames that are less powerful and need changes first, but Zephyr has still received the fewest changes of any frame relative to how long she's been in the game.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I re-performed my Turbulence testing to get some pictures for the OP, and I found that the bugs have actually gotten worse. While previously, I was only being shot through my Turbulence every single time at 15m away, when I repeated my test multiple times, I was now being shot at only 10m away.

 

Anyway, I now have pictures for the OP.

 

Me at 9m away:

 

You can even see his shot hitting the wall next to him.

 

Me at 10m away:

[EchoesOfRain]

Dunno if this is mentioned, but when zephyr has turbulence on and the shade sentinel turns him invisible, are the "plates" that Turbulence turns into representations of Turbulence's area of effect?

[DSpite]

Well actually

 

An airbender can fly, as proven by Zaheer from the Legend Of Korra. It's just that they have to completely let go of "earthly tethers" (I assume that means letting go of the material world). So it is possible...just hard and super rare.

 

I googled a lot before I stated what I did, and the fact that some dude once in 4000 years managed to fly does not "set a precedent" to make the statement that "Airbenders can fly" anymore then murdering one person makes me a "serial killer". If you want to push the issue, we can let DE randomly make one Zephyr Frame fly once every 4000 years too.

 

... back on topic, lots of units ALREADY fly, they just equip a damn jetpack and stuff

 

Complain to DE that we don't have jetpacks, not that  Zephyr can't hover in the air like a Hellion.

 

Hellions are mid-armored Grineer units which are equipped with personal jet-packs that allow them to jet-jump across terrain quickly as well as hover high in the air, giving them mobility even greater than that of light units.

[Coded]

correct me if im wrong, but isnt zephyrs turbulence supposed to work better the more you are moving around? If you just stand in one spot, its not as effective because more bullets will get deflected at different angles.

 

Maybe thats why they gave the jet stream augment to her, so that you keep moving while its on, thats how ive been using it. And ive gotten full protection at the highest grineer maps and the void.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Coded