How About We Nerf Corrosive Projection?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Remove Corrosive Projection, cap enemy scaling. I haven't seen an argument that would really give a reason for both of these things not happening, if they happened together.

[blasron]

nerfing CP would only be a band-aid solution to the crazy amor scalling in the game. So no CP have to stay until they fix the main issue: The enemies scaling.

 

I am all in for a major nerf :weapon, frame, skill. ONLY if they put a maximum : Health, amor, shield, domage. Cap on the enemies. We won't reach balance until the enemies themself are un-balance.

 

Just look at the difference between a lvl 30 bombard and a lvl 40 bombard. The lvl 40 have near the double of life amor than the lvl 30

[Fifield]

Remove Corrosive Projection, cap enemy scaling. I haven't seen an argument that would really give a reason for both of these things not happening, if they happened together.

 

I gave one earlier: endless missions go on too long as it is.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I gave one earlier: endless missions go on too long as it is.

The things that allow endless missions to go on forever wouldn't be affected by scaling. There, it's the fact that we can CC and use invulnerablity constantly because of the energy system in its current state. There's really no reason for these missions to be endless either--if they lasted a max of an hour that would be fine, as at that point it only becomes more repetetive anyway.

[xRufus7x]

What issues?

 

When shields and health are scaled, they add a flat value. When Armor is scaled it adds a damage resistance value. This means that armored enemies scale much faster than their nonarmored compatriots. This is why people feel compelled to use CP in higher level play.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Enemy_Level_Scaling

 

 

Notice the drastic difference in effective health.

Edited April 20, 2015 by xRufus7x

[Fifield]

The things that allow endless missions to go on forever wouldn't be affected by scaling. There, it's the fact that we can CC and use invulnerablity constantly because of the energy system in its current state.

 

There's some truth to this.  But with endless cries to nerf Bombard, scaling would be the only thing to end missions.  It's quite a significant factor in ending camping Survival.

 

There's really no reason for these missions to be endless either--if they lasted a max of an hour that would be fine, as at that point it only becomes more repetetive anyway.

 

This would be better than the current situation, though I prefer more immersive solutions.

I'm going to start a new thread on how we want missions to end.  Hopefully, it will be an interesting one.

@xRufusx -- I'm still not seeing a problem there, outside of ubiquitousness of Corrosive Projection.  Capping it at eg 75% may be helpful in shortening overlong endless missions.

[SenpaiWisp]

How about buff the anti-sheild counterpart ;3

[TheBrsrkr]

How about no, OP? CP lets us get around the insane armor scaling in the Void. Fix that, and then you can nerf CP all you want.

[Auramaru]

When someone says "nerf corrosive projection" just makes me think about all the times I went to 40+ minutes in T4 survival and replacing "playable content with "WTF OMG HOLY MOTHER OF BULLET SPONGES"

Makes me think OP doesn't do much endgame content, but you are of course welcome to your opinion and ideas... I'm just saying that to nerf corrosive projection past 25% would put an immediate end to tower 4 gameplay as we know it

Edited April 20, 2015 by AuraMau

[inappropriatename5818]

When someone says "nerf corrosive projection" just makes me think about all the times I went to 40+ minutes in T4 survival and replacing "playable content with "WTF OMG HOLY MOTHER OF BULLET SPONGES"

Makes me think OP doesn't do much endgame content, but you are of course welcome to your opinion and ideas... I'm just saying that to nerf corrosive projection past 25% would put an immediate end to tower 4 gameplay as we know it

 

 

Where does it say you have to go 40+? You are acting like you don't get rewards if you don't go for 1 hour runs. Enemies are bullet spunges because it's designed so you can't just go forever.   

I didn't suggest this because I think it's too easy with 4xCP, I'm suggesting it because stacking 4 of them is just broken mechanics. It's not about how far you can go without it, compared to with 4xCP, they can downscale armor/health to compensate for the nerf, it's about bypassing most of the games content.   

Damage 2.0, damage types, augments / abilities that interact with armor, everything is bypassed entirely with 2 factions, as long as you equip this mod on all 4 members.   

 

This is poor design and it makes it really hard to balance enemies, because buffing armor to make it harder doesn't matter and boosting HP will just screw over average players that don't run 4xCP, while players that do don't even care because Viral proc huehue.   

 

Nothing should be 100% ever if you want a balanced game. If this is how we want this game to be, then we might as well get an aura mod that just spawnkills enemies if 4 are equipped. It's bad game design.   Nerf armor, downscale enemies, I don't care what they do in exchange, as long as they fix this broken aura.    

[BluelitHalo]

Set a hard cap on armor scaling first, then we can discuss Corrosive Projection nerfs.

[Vallerian]

Yeah I don't get why they stack additively lol

[Flowen231]

Where does it say you have to go 40+?  

People are limited by the amount of keys that they own. Sure, you dont HAVE to do 40m-60m-80m-2 hour runs, but doing so gives you more chances of getting the loot you want (which probably has an abysmal drop rate). I mean, would you rather spend 10 keys doing 20 minute runs for a total of 10 chances of getting a volt chassis, or would you rather spend 10 keys doing 60 minute runs to have 30 chances at it (let's be honest, even doing that you are unlikely to get one).

 

Drop rates are for another topic, but the thing is that CP stacking generally helps you go longer since having even 1 non CP in your squad turns enemies into bullet sponges. Even weapons with 4-6 forma start to crap out surprisingly early in late game content because of how rapid enemy armor scales, and CP is just a solution to the issue. Again, the aura is not OP or broken, it's just more useful than the rest, most of which are mediocre and/or borderline useless.

[Fifield]

That doesn't answer why encouraging players to go 40+ is good game design, which was RE's point.  If T4 endless were made more difficult/shorter, we could be compensated with higher drop rates for keys.

[Fifield]

Try hard mode like Phoenix Escalation. Challenge yourself with just an axe.

 

1. Boring/unavailable. Oh and the mission was designed to match power levels.  2. Pointless.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Fifield

[MJ12]

That doesn't answer why encouraging players to go 40+ is good game design, which was RE's point.  If T4 endless were made more difficult/shorter, we could be compensated with higher drop rates for keys.

 

We're not 'encouraged' to go to 40+ minutes. We're effectively forced to by low drop rates because as a F2P game Warframe needs to have people constantly putting in Platinum to get the new shinies. The balance for that is that the game is designed so it's reasonably possible to run Void 4s and get the gear if you're willing to put in the time.

 

Your 'solution' is basically removing the ability to spend time to effectively get equipment and further cutting down on the number of players who can access a large swathe of high-end gear (which you need to effectively farm for high-end gear) simply because of personal preferences.

[Fifield]

We're not 'encouraged' to go to 40+ minutes. We're effectively forced to by low drop rates because as a F2P game Warframe needs to have people constantly putting in Platinum to get the new shinies. The balance for that is that the game is designed so it's reasonably possible to run Void 4s and get the gear if you're willing to put in the time.

 

Your 'solution' is basically removing the ability to spend time to effectively get equipment and further cutting down on the number of players who can access a large swathe of high-end gear (which you need to effectively farm for high-end gear) simply because of personal preferences.

 

Roughly half random T4D missions only want to go to 20 in my experience.

T4 keys are farmable and I've already said drop rates could be increased -- so that point was irrelevant before you even made it.

I have 3400 plat after running maybe 20 T4 endless missions and never bought any of it.  Even if that were halved, tell me what I can't get with 1700 plat.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Fifield

[Kayblis]

Common sense logic:

Buff other auras to make up the uselessness

 

People that never played past neptune logic:

nerf endgame because i can't/don't play it

 

 

Seems reasonable

Edited April 21, 2015 by Kayblis

[MJ12]

Roughly half random T4D missions only want to go to 20 in my experience.

T4 keys are farmable and I've already said drop rates could be increased -- so that point was irrelevant before you even made it.

I have 3400 plat after running maybe 20 T4 endless missions and never bought any of it.  Even if that were halved, tell me what I can't get with 1700 plat.

 

Yes, because most people don't, in fact, find it trivial to do 40 waves of T4D, which completely undermines your point. Furthermore, all of these statements you're making are anecdotes. They're not data. They're not evidence. Your argument is that basically because you have so much plat (which you get because players are putting money into the game, which your changes would decrease because the players would either be giving their plat directly to DE or simply not buying in and playing) it's clear there are no problems with making it even harder to get top-tier equipment.

 

All because you don't want players going past 40min of survival or doing 40 defense waves.

[Fifield]

After absolutely destroying every single argument in your last comment, I'll do the same here.

 

Yes, because most people don't, in fact, find it trivial to do 40 waves of T4D, which completely undermines your point.

 

So firstly, you make an assertion about most people which obviously you made up.

 

Secondly, it's again completely irrelevant to my point.  All nerfing Corrosive Projection will do is stop players being encouraged to go to 60+, which most of them don't want to do.

 

Furthermore, all of these statements you're making are anecdotes. They're not data. They're not evidence.

 

Newsflash: there's no data in ~70% of these Feedback threads.  So are you declaring them all nonsense?

 

Your argument is that basically because you have so much plat (which you get because players are putting money into the game, which your changes would decrease because the players would either be giving their plat directly to DE or simply not buying in and playing) it's clear there are no problems with making it even harder to get top-tier equipment.

 

Wrong again.  The fact I have gotten so much plat through playing merely demonstrated how wrong you were.

 

The fact that I suggested compensating by increasing T4 key drops makes your point... wait for it... yes again completely irrelevant before you even posted for the first time.

 

All because you don't want players going past 40min of survival or doing 40 defense waves.

 

And with your last line, your crystal ball fails you.  I don't care whether players go past 40.  I care if I have to and most players don't want to either.  That's based on data:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/418727-how-long-should-missions-last-how-difficult-should-they-be/#entry4642367

*drops mic*

Edited April 21, 2015 by Fifield

[shut]

When shields and health are scaled, they add a flat value. When Armor is scaled it adds a damage resistance value. This means that armored enemies scale much faster than their nonarmored compatriots. This is why people feel compelled to use CP in higher level play.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Enemy_Level_Scaling

 

 

Notice the drastic difference in effective health.

 

Thank you. This, right here, is the root of the problem.

 

Repeating what I said earlier in the thread-- whether CP is "broken" or not is irrelevant because its effects are a direct consequence of the armor system, which is in far greater need of fixing. The armor system needs to be tweaked/scrapped/replaced first; then we can worry about whether or not CP still makes things too easy.

 

 

For the people continually defending how CP is "overpowered/broken" and that it's necessary to get 40+ minutes into a T4 Survival-- have you gone an hour into a Corpus/Infested survival before? We've all popped high-level Bombard eximus units into the Simalcrum, but have you done the same with Corpus and Infested? Did you notice how much less tanky everything was compared to the Grineer?

Whether it's the Grineer that are too tanky or everything else that's too squishy is up to debate, and really depends on how far the devs want to allow us to go into endless missions before ousting us with stat walls. But the important thing is that the factions need consistency.

Edited April 21, 2015 by SortaRandom

[(PSN)JiggaJazz]

Lol op asks to Nerf CP instead of nerfing armor scaling

Op is a complete failure

[MJ12]

 

After absolutely destroying every single argument in your last comment, I'll do the same here.

 

Ah yes, "absolutely destroying." You're not even addressing the argument, let alone 'destroying' it.

 

 

So firstly, you make an assertion about most people which obviously you made up.

 

Secondly, it's again completely irrelevant to my point.  All nerfing Corrosive Projection will do is stop players being encouraged to go to 60+, which most of them don't want to do.

 

Except Corrosive Projection doesn't 'encourage' players to go to 60+. It doesn't encourage anything. It merely makes it possible to do so, and moreover it keeps the effective health scaling of armored enemies somewhat sensible if you don't have the toppest of the top-tier weapons. I'm amused that your assertions are not 'made up' but everyone else's are, though, when you don't even understand the difference between 'encouraging a set of behaviors' and 'making a set of behaviors possible.'

 

 

Newsflash: there's no data in ~70% of these Feedback threads.  So are you declaring them all nonsense?

 

Feedback threads are generally personal feedback from personal experiences. When you're making a declaratory statement like "most people do X" instead of "this is why I think Y needs to be changed" and your only evidence is an anecdote, that's something else entirely. Also, I'm going to note that the feedback threads with hard data were often the ones which reliably resulted in changes by DE, like the one where I pointed out they nerfed Warframe armor mitigation severely with Damage 2.0.

 

Wrong again.  The fact I have gotten so much plat through playing merely demonstrated how wrong you were.

 

You don't even understand why plat's relevant, do you? The only way to get platinum is if someone at some point trades real money for it. To do so, the game has to encourage people to buy platinum. The only reason you have this much platinum from 'just playing the game' is because people found the game fun enough to pay real money for ingame currency, which your suggestions aren't likely to encourage and if anything discourage. Making the gameplay itself fun but the drop rates of certain parts fairly low is why you have 3400+ plat instead of 0. People are willing to pay in to support DE, and then they're willing to pay to bypass the grind, and DE does that by letting people buy parts from other people. Which encourages players to play and mitigates, to some extent, the really low drop rates.

 

The point is that to keep this working, you need people to pay into the system and your solution, nerfing things for the sake of nerfing, is likely to drive players away from paying into the system.

 

 

 

The fact that I suggested compensating by increasing T4 key drops makes your point... wait for it... yes again completely irrelevant before you even posted for the first time.

 

If DE wanted to increase T4 key drops they would have done so by now. The fact is that if you're right, and most people aren't going beyond 40 anyways and many are stopping at 20, and DE knows this because they have detailed stats on mission completions and mission rewards, nerfing corrosive projection isn't going to change a thing to mitigate your illusory problem except by making it harder for everyone who doesn't have shiny minmaxed weapons to grind their way through high-level content.

 

In fact, changing nothing about corrosive projection and increasing key accessibility would do far more to encourage people to do 20 minute T4S missions, 20 wave T4Ds, and 4 wave T4Is. Notice that nobody does 8 wave Draco Interceptions, for example, because those don't burn keys. The only reason people want to go to 40, or 60, or whatever, is the key limitation. You see, if you make keys easier to get, this fixes the problem. It makes T4s more accessible to new players rather than doing the exact opposite.

 

And with your last line, your crystal ball fails you.  I don't care whether players go past 40.  I care if I have to and most players don't want to either.  That's based on data:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/418727-how-long-should-missions-last-how-difficult-should-they-be/#entry4642367

*drops mic*

 

 

If corrosive projection reduced enemy armor by 20% per rank and thus a maxed one led to -20% armor (presumably rounded to 0) people would still not 'have' to go past 40. It would give you the tools to make doing so possible, but that's not even close to encouraging behavior. You need to seperate "this is possible" from "this is encouraged" and actually understand why people do something or don't do something instead of blaming it on whatever you glance at.

Edited April 21, 2015 by MJ12

[Kyte]

Where does it say you have to go 40+? You are acting like you don't get rewards if you don't go for 1 hour runs. Enemies are bullet spunges because it's designed so you can't just go forever.   

I didn't suggest this because I think it's too easy with 4xCP, I'm suggesting it because stacking 4 of them is just broken mechanics. It's not about how far you can go without it, compared to with 4xCP, they can downscale armor/health to compensate for the nerf, it's about bypassing most of the games content.   

Damage 2.0, damage types, augments / abilities that interact with armor, everything is bypassed entirely with 2 factions, as long as you equip this mod on all 4 members.   

 

This is poor design and it makes it really hard to balance enemies, because buffing armor to make it harder doesn't matter and boosting HP will just screw over average players that don't run 4xCP, while players that do don't even care because Viral proc huehue.   

 

Nothing should be 100% ever if you want a balanced game. If this is how we want this game to be, then we might as well get an aura mod that just spawnkills enemies if 4 are equipped. It's bad game design.   Nerf armor, downscale enemies, I don't care what they do in exchange, as long as they fix this broken aura.    

Raid

[Youre_Waifu]

Yes, great, nerf the only useful aura mod. Well done.