Constructive Feedback On The New Bps For Former Credit Weapons

[Bleak_Advent]

Scrap Metal New Idea:

Found on Venus/Ceres. Same if not a tiny bit better drop-rate than alloy plate (its former improvement) and widely used on lower end weapons and equipment.

What do you guys think?

I think they could just make the blueprints require more easily obtainable materials, rather than setting an expectation of a steep material grind with alloy plate, or anything with a similar drop rate.

[BadAimbot]

I think that at least one weapon should be purchasable with a medium amount of Credits for each playstyle. For example, one shotgun, one semi-auto, one light full-auto, one heavier full-auto, and so forth. Allowing us to get an idea of how each weapon style performs lets us make better decisions on what to purchase next, and with how grueling some BPs can be, that's really important.

 

At the very least, melee weapons should not all be BPs. Especially not the dang Skana.

[Captator]

I would not expend the time necessary to farm for the resources needed to make any of the guns that were formerly credit only. Had I known about this update aspect beforehand I would have bought them all out. As it stands, I don't think I will ever play with the snipetron or the furax, and did I not own a latron already I would not build it, as it is horrifically mediocre without serration. There is now no real differentiation between furis/afuris and viper/dual viper.

 

This is from the perspective of a rank 4 player whose only current bottleneck is whether particular mods drop. If I were a new player, I would be absolutely gutted to farm Venus for alloy plate and then find out I had spent it all on a mediocre weapon that offered no real gameplay difference to the starting one (Burston) or was just not my cup of tea (Lex; imposed fire rate restrictions on semi-automatic weapons are not fun).

 

In short, this change disincentivises old players from branching out into the credit only weapons we didn't pick up because they weren't worth the money/weren't what we wanted back when we were starting, and makes early gameplay a considerably more boring affair, because the actual availability of different weapons is incredibly low: Bit of a shot in the foot if you ask me.

 

edit: the changes to the melee weapons to being essentially all BP only is even more crushing than the gun changes in a way; the cheap bo particularly was a nice way of introducing some melee variation in the earlier hours of gameplay. This game is going to look seriously boring to a new player when they only see 3 frames and 3 weapons for their first hours of play.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Captator

[Corpy]

What if they were to add in a new resource? Something similar to alloy plate but weaker and cheaper, so  it would be used for low-end crafting rather than high end (e.g HEK). If you guys agree on the idea of a new resource I am sure I can come up with a well written essay and ideas about this resource.

Actually, this might be quite a good idea.. alloy scraps for lower levels. But I think they could also add a option to craft the alloy scraps in to alloy plates..

[noveltyhero]

Actually, this might be quite a good idea.. alloy scraps for lower levels. But I think they could also add a option to craft the alloy scraps in to alloy plates..

I like the idea of transforming one resource into another. Maybe 10k nano spores can make 1 neurode or neural sensor :)

 

I think they could just make the blueprints require more easily obtainable materials, rather than setting an expectation of a steep material grind with alloy plate, or anything with a similar drop rate.

 

I kind of agree, but new resources would certainly not hurt considering this is beta and right now the game is still no where near the end. New resources would keep the game fresh and make more planets less useless. For example, you would not go to venus for alloy plate when you have access to Ceres or Sedna, would you? New resources would certainly bring a new aspect in the game, an aspect widely required. But overall yes they should make the higher drop rate ones (ferrite, nano spores, polymer bundle etc.) be used more than the lower drop rate ones (rubedo or alloy plate).

[Bleak_Advent]

I would not expend the time necessary to farm for the resources needed to make any of the guns that were formerly credit only. Had I known about this update aspect beforehand I would have bought them all out. As it stands, I don't think I will ever play with the snipetron or the furax, and did I not own a latron already I would not build it, as it is horrifically mediocre without serration. There is now no real differentiation between furis/afuris and viper/dual viper.

 

This is from the perspective of a rank 4 player whose only current bottleneck is whether particular mods drop. If I were a new player, I would be absolutely gutted to farm Venus for alloy plate and then find out I had spent it all on a mediocre weapon that offered no real gameplay difference to the starting one (Burston) or was just not my cup of tea (Lex; imposed fire rate restrictions on semi-automatic weapons are not fun).

 

In short, this change disincentivises old players from branching out into the credit only weapons we didn't pick up because they weren't worth the money/weren't what we wanted back when we were starting, and makes early gameplay a considerably more boring affair, because the actual availability of different weapons is incredibly low: Bit of a shot in the foot if you ask me.

I think of the former credit weapons as those that you would try out before getting ready to craft your first weapon. Out of them, the Snipetron and Latron are probably the most useful, when modded later in the game. Regardless on opinions of usefulness, a newer player wouldn't be able to make a judgment call until after a 3+ hour grind. As someone who runs Kappa for their alloy (for frame and weapon prints), if I had to do it on Venus, I would just pass on those weapons. Their cost is just too steep to warrant a long farm like that.

[Captator]

I think of the former credit weapons as those that you would try out before getting ready to craft your first weapon. Out of them, the Snipetron and Latron are probably the most useful, when modded later in the game. Regardless on opinions of usefulness, a newer player wouldn't be able to make a judgment call until after a 3+ hour grind. As someone who runs Kappa for their alloy (for frame and weapon prints), if I had to do it on Venus, I would just pass on those weapons. Their cost is just too steep to warrant a long farm like that.

 

Yeah as I said, mediocre without serration (Latron), but I don't see Snipetrons above nominal level ~20 enemies, and only really on corpus maps in general.

 

I agree with your view as to the 'role' as it were of the credit weapons. This is how I saw them too, and I thought they served admirably as they were.

[Judopunch]

The alloy is a larger issue for these weapons in question, as they were originally attended to be readily accessible to newer players through a credit only purchase. Alloy farming is flat out ridiculous on just Venus. Think about it as if you were a newer player, not from where you may be at now.

Ya so father they farm one they won't be new anymore and can farm anything anywhere with their new or old gun.

[Bleak_Advent]

Ya so father they farm one they won't be new anymore and can farm anything anywhere with their new or old gun.

 

You can still be new to the game and only have one or two guns. The point here is to give accessibility to a variety of play styles early on. Frames are already limited and rightfully so, but you need to have a sort of tiered progression for weapons. As they were, credit weapons allowed beginning players, such as myself (a couple of weeks ago), to better come to terms with what the game had to offer in the way of play variety. The Latron made me want a Boltor, the Snipetron looked boring compared to the allure of the Paris, the Burston made me further value the Braton, etc. You wont be able to make your own judgments on which weapons are worth it to you in the long run, as a player, unless you have that broader, easily accessible pool of "low-tier" weapons.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Bleak_Advent

[goozilla]

The movement towards the BP was a good/bad thing. Its great, because it feels like progress towards a new weapon. Its terrible, because everything costs an abnormal amount of Alloy Plates, which have one of the worst drop rates in the game, along with a relatively low drop count. Oh, and the time to actually use said weapons, since it takes 12 god damned hours to forge even a Burston.

 

A fix? Increase the amount on pickup, or increase drop rate. Either would work. And for lower tier weapons, they could reduce the production time to.. 2~4 hours? Would be acceptable.

[Corvinna]

This change bothers me for 2 main reasons.

 

1) It seems like it only really affects new players, and slows down their ability to get into the game and their playstyle, since not everyone will want the same type of weapon.

 

2) The change, for me anyways, sets off a kind of red flag on the direction DE may be taking and what these changes may look like to new players, which is what a game needs to survive. If in the first few hours of play, they are already thrust into a grind just to acquire a different type of weapon...they may not want to continue playing.

[Xyfer]

I think the old market system was better,that at least for new players. Right now most weapons you need to obtain through crafting, and I think this would be a turn off to potential new players because of:

1) New players start of with basic equipments. Acquiring materials are not really easy for them especially most weapons requiring alloy plates as the ingredient.

2) Very limited choice of equipments purchaseable with credits. Most of them start off with nothing, with nothing to be bought in the market with credits, you can't expect them to keep using mk1-braton all the way until the farmed enough alloy plates?

I suggest that DE could at least return some of the portions of weapons purchaseable by credits back into the market. Also you could increase the price abit since getting credits is not as hard as last time.

[Grand-Dozer]

Perhaps the addition of material rewards to the alert system could balance this out? Imagine completing an alert that rewarded upwards of 150 Alloy plates (could be even more).

I believe the addition of materials to the alert system was brought up by the developers in a livestream, hopefully that comes sooner than later.

To ensure everyone had equal opportunity, these rewards could be geared towards "Lower leveled" planets/moons in the system.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Grand-Dozer

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: This update only hurts new people. When someone new joins up one of the first things they're going to do is check the market to see what kind of weapons they'll be able to get in the future and possibly even make a goal (in my case I first set my eyes on the gram and knew I'd be getting it as soon as I could). However now everything costs so much to make that it's just a daunting task to look upon. Even what few things aren't blueprint only cost a ridiculous amount, seriously? 75k for the straun?

 

I really recommend cutting the new prices in half and putting a handful of weapons (At least one of each major type) for credit purchase so it's not unreasonable for people to actually play thegame instead of spending their first week using nothing but the skana now because they have to grind like mad just to afford the most basic stuff (and gods help them if they wind up not liking their purchase). Otherwise There's going to be a massive decline in how many new members actually stick around.

[BlueEden]

If the weapons in question were still available for credits, you would have the burston, snipetron, and latron being cheaper entry points. Mods wouldn't be as huge an issue in the early goings. I wouldn't muck around with mods until I first found a weapon suitable to my personal play style.

Sure, not mucking around with mods at start is sound theory if you know how the game works. I was referring to entry level players trying to figure out the game in which a huge lump sum of credits for trying out a different weapon weapon system makes your choices more difficult/intimidating.

Personally, I think that an entry level shotgun, sniper style rifle, automatic pistol, two handed and/or blunt melee weapon should be available on the cheap for new players to test play styles. Even better would be to have these as options for people to choose from at the beginning of the game when they choose a warframe.

Edited May 18, 2013 by BlueEden

[Bleak_Advent]

I feel the main concern here is that newcomers should not be intimidated by the crafting costs of what we as a community view as "entry level" weapons, which should give those players an accessible means to experiment with the various styles of play Warframe has to offer.

[BlueEden]

I feel the main concern here is that newcomers should not be intimidated by the crafting costs of what we as a community view as "entry level" weapons, which should give those players an accessible means to experiment with the various styles of play Warframe has to offer.

Agreed. How as a new player are you supposed to know what weapons to strive for when the costs are the same, other than being XP locked? The new pricing isn't supportive of new players trying to figure out the game or how to play it the way they might want. Such as, I like sniper weapons in other games guess but looks like I'm stuck with a Braton. Or they might not realize the Lex is a viable sniper weapon because its a pistol (which is counter-intuitive).

[Bleak_Advent]

Agreed. How as a new player are you supposed to know what weapons to strive for when the costs are the same, other than being XP locked? The new pricing isn't supportive of new players trying to figure out the game or how to play it the way they might want. Such as, I like sniper weapons in other games guess but looks like I'm stuck with a Braton. Or they might not realize the Lex is a viable sniper weapon because its a pistol (which is counter-intuitive).

The more users we have supporting these concerns, the more likely our concerns will be addressed. Speaking of the Lex, I just bought it the other day and was surprised by its range. Gotta rank it up to have some fun with pistol sniping.

[NoeleVeerod]

This is my main point as far as the "accessibility" is concerned. Those weapons were helpful to me in the sense that they allowed me to explore play style options. Reflecting on that, I would not want new players to be restricted to an even narrower set of early to mid-game options. 

Agreed with this. That is one of the points for which I don't welcome the new market system.

Speaking of the Alloy Plate, I think that it would be kind of logical for a 'regular' weapon to be made of certain materials; but if the demand for Alloy Plate keeps rising without its availability being adequate, that's an issue. And it prevents rookies and lowbies from getting the weapons they should experiment with.

[Bleak_Advent]

Agreed with this. That is one of the points for which I don't welcome the new market system.

Speaking of the Alloy Plate, I think that it would be kind of logical for a 'regular' weapon to be made of certain materials; but if the demand for Alloy Plate keeps rising without its availability being adequate, that's an issue. And it prevents rookies and lowbies from getting the weapons they should experiment with.

Like I've said previously, farming a drop-rich mission like Kappa for hours to get the alloy required for a frame or a weapon like the Hek, which is mastery restricted, is acceptable to me. New players, on the other hand, can't farm Kappa and shouldn't be farming materials equaling or exceeding the cost of a mastery rank 4 weapon. The original credit costs for the weapons which were recently given blueprints were much more obtainable for me as a newer player. Knowing how long my Hek took to make, I wouldn't wish a similar grind on newer players for weapons which clearly have an early game feel. Back to the key point: New players need reasonable accessibility to a pool of weapons which allow them to experiment with varying play styles.

[NoeleVeerod]

Like I've said previously, farming a drop-rich mission like Kappa for hours to get the alloy required for a frame or a weapon like the Hek, which is mastery restricted, is acceptable to me. New players, on the other hand, can't farm Kappa and shouldn't be farming materials equaling or exceeding the cost of a mastery rank 4 weapon. The original credit costs for the weapons which were recently given blueprints were much more obtainable for me as a newer player. Knowing how long my Hek took to make, I wouldn't wish a similar grind on newer players for weapons which clearly have an early game feel. Back to the key point: New players need reasonable accessibility to a pool of weapons which allow them to experiment with varying play styles.

 

The 'logical' thingy was just because I can imagine weapons being made of steel materials or plates. I see your point and I'm supporting it. I do remember what it was like to get weapons as a low level player, and indeed it would be reasonable for "early-tier" weapons to be obtainable with credits, or be crafted with less grinding and farming effort.

[Bleak_Advent]

The 'logical' thingy was just because I can imagine weapons being made of steel materials or plates. I see your point and I'm supporting it. I do remember what it was like to get weapons as a low level player, and indeed it would be reasonable for "early-tier" weapons to be obtainable with credits, or be crafted with less grinding and farming effort.

And I understand your point as well. The materials for a blueprint need to make sense for what it produces, but they can certainly be brought within reason for newer players.

[plznohurtme]

Honestly the obsession with alloy plate on everything just needs to go, because for new players this makes people not actually explore the system, which is part of the problem by itself. The way that the materials should go is in order (planet/level wise) of when they want the weapons to be acquired. The fact that all of the blueprints take 300+ alloy plate and it's only available in "large" amounts on two planets means a ton of time spent there and nowhere else. I totally understand doing this for higher end weapons where there should be a barrier to making them, but for relatively basic earlier tier weapons the barrier for entry simply shouldn't be so high. Perhaps dropping the alloy plate cost down to 50 or less would be best, and raise up some of the more common material costs on them so people can't just make everything, but have a chance of making a few during the normal course of clearing out the solar system.

I also think it's important to get people used to the crafting system and the way it works earlier (so I do think the concept of moving weapons to foundry/blueprints in a good concept), but it shouldn't be a massive farm + time spending venture. Gradual increases in material farming time and places definitely makes the most sense.

[Bleak_Advent]

Honestly the obsession with alloy plate on everything just needs to go, because for new players this makes people not actually explore the system, which is part of the problem by itself. The way that the materials should go is in order (planet/level wise) of when they want the weapons to be acquired. The fact that all of the blueprints take 300+ alloy plate and it's only available in "large" amounts on two planets means a ton of time spent there and nowhere else. I totally understand doing this for higher end weapons where there should be a barrier to making them, but for relatively basic earlier tier weapons the barrier for entry simply shouldn't be so high. Perhaps dropping the alloy plate cost down to 50 or less would be best, and raise up some of the more common material costs on them so people can't just make everything, but have a chance of making a few during the normal course of clearing out the solar system.I also think it's important to get people used to the crafting system and the way it works earlier (so I do think the concept of moving weapons to foundry/blueprints in a good concept), but it shouldn't be a massive farm + time spending venture. Gradual increases in material farming time and places definitely makes the most sense.

Because as it stands, the new blueprints essentially erected a brick wall to newcomers. Mastery weapons make sense in that they take large amounts of time to make, but there needs to be a gradual tiering of accessibility to weapons as the player goes from new to seasoned.

[plznohurtme]

Because as it stands, the new blueprints essentially erected a brick wall to newcomers. Mastery weapons make sense in that they take large amounts of time to make, but there needs to be a gradual tiering of accessibility to weapons as the player goes from new to seasoned.

It sounds to me like you don't like the crafting time? If that's the case then... well... you have greater issues than the change added in, because a ton of things are foundry only. If you're referring to the materials farming... then you didn't read my post at all, because that's exactly what I said the problem with the implementation of the new system is.