So, The Reasons Why 1 Shot In Wf Pvp Is Much More Op Than All Other Traditional Shooter Games

[Rorgal_Sina]

Actually, 1 hit kill weapons are more advantageous to the meta for a different reason.

 

Now hear me out, but I've played Conclave 1.0 for a LOOOONG time. I always got rekt. My friends were all using one hit kill "meta" weapons while I kept with automatics.

 

Now even if the "DPS" is same, the difference is:

 

Weapons that take multiple hits: You have to keep crosshair on target.

 

Weapons that take one hit: You click at the perfect moment and move on.

 

Being forced to stay on target with a weapon that technically kills slower (predrawn bow or surprise attack) brings you lots of pressure, while one shot kill users can focus on just one hit before running away.

 

I'm not going to say that non-one hit kill weapons are in a disadvantage, because they aren't. However, there are some situations where requiring only one hit is more advantageous, which gives the delusional idea of "skill".

[rockscl]

hey, use a fair logic, you have the power and 50 energy, other side also have it. all route are same distant.

If you use "player skill" to adj. balance, there will not be any need of balance.

 

i think theres not point in trying to find a symmetric situation to call it fair, if hes busy sniping i will be busy looking for some energy, if im busy killing other guy, he will be busy trying to catch me off guard or getting some energy to break my guard, this game is not symmetric at all, but if we try to look at a 1v1 situation, im melee and he is daikyu, in a theoretically perfect world i would be with a wall on my back blocking forever, and he would be shooting arrows forever unable to do anything, that, or both of we would be running in circles forever too

 

my biggest mistake would be having my entire team ignoring the fact that there is a good daikyu, all that is needed is 1 tanky CC frame to take care of him, just like in every moba afaik

 

as a matter of facts, what i do against daikyu is parry arrows and flank him, if he makes the mistake of charging an arrow i simply jump on him and knock him down, if he eats the frost`s 1 i will most probably catch him anyway, that has worked pretty well until now for me

 

however, theres is a mayor fact here, people who goes well WITH the daikyu is calling it OP, so their suggestions should be listened, i admit that i have never used daikyu, its rank 0 in my inventory

Edited May 25, 2015 by rockscl

[elele]

quake doesn't have momentum modeled into their movement system, thus you can instantaneously change your vector with no penalties.

 

Wf does. There is delay as you decelerate from one vector and accelerate along another.

 

This delay gives the initiator a significant time advantage while the target tries to run away.

 

In quake, due to instantaneous vector change, there is no time advantage to the initiator: the target can run away at max speed immediately, even preventing the distance closer to begin with.

 

Wf having momentum built into the game significantly changes the landscape of distance closers and escapes. It is much harder (due to mechanics, not skill) to escape or even dodge due to acceleration/deceleration issues than in games with instantaneous movement.

 

In Quake, you can't "instantaneously change your vector" while in mid air. You are on a fixed trajectory until you land or get near enough to a surface for a rocket jump. 

 

In WF, you can copter/directional melee mid air to change your direction (even though you carry some initial momentum). 

 

So in the end the two effects balance out. 

 

Further, I also refer to Tribe, where there is momentum building exactly like in WF. And nobody complained about snipers there. 

[elele]

Weapons that take multiple hits: You have to keep crosshair on target.

 

Weapons that take one hit: You click at the perfect moment and move on.

 

which is why conclave 1.0 was bad. Good games balance one-hit-kill weapons with slow firerate/scope-in time, etc. to punish missed shots. Conclave 1.0 has Marelok Grinlok that you can click as fast as you can to get that "one perfect shot" without worrying too much about missing 9/10 of your shots. 

[Lord_Noctus]

Actually, 1 hit kill weapons are more advantageous to the meta for a different reason.

 

Now hear me out, but I've played Conclave 1.0 for a LOOOONG time. I always got rekt. My friends were all using one hit kill "meta" weapons while I kept with automatics.

 

Now even if the "DPS" is same, the difference is:

 

Weapons that take multiple hits: You have to keep crosshair on target.

 

Weapons that take one hit: You click at the perfect moment and move on.

 

Being forced to stay on target with a weapon that technically kills slower (predrawn bow or surprise attack) brings you lots of pressure, while one shot kill users can focus on just one hit before running away.

 

I'm not going to say that non-one hit kill weapons are in a disadvantage, because they aren't. However, there are some situations where requiring only one hit is more advantageous, which gives the delusional idea of "skill".

vipers were known to be part of the meta along with some other automatic and 1 burst weapon

[cary2010haha]

Seems to me that, you can't fight vs Daikyu users...

joke? people complain must because they bad to it? I got over 15 k/d with Daikyu in FFA, thats why it makes me understand it's OP

0 ttk time, no red dot on radar, no trace,  hit or non-hit & copt. safe, no risk

 

 

 

wat MK1 have higher dps is bull sh-it, 1 hit and no slow down = god

Edited May 26, 2015 by Cary2010haha

[Thalahssalyst]

You see? when someone say something about Op things, the people start to say "o diud you cant fight, o diud git gud"...
I think most of the people dont want that weapon balanced because, balance = o men, i cant kill fast anymore...
1 shot weapons, is not okay, DE need to understand it from 1.0 experience, Strun/W/Valkyr/Daikyu its destroying the "balance" ... 
O you cant fight a valkyr... yes diud... only you can fight them

[Nighttide77]

You see? when someone say something about Op things, the people start to say "o diud you cant fight, o diud git gud"...

I think most of the people dont want that weapon balanced because, balance = o men, i cant kill fast anymore...

1 shot weapons, is not okay, DE need to understand it from 1.0 experience, Strun/W/Valkyr/Daikyu its destroying the "balance" ...

O you cant fight a valkyr... yes diud... only you can fight them

What's wrong with one shot weapons, in your opinion?

Also, keep in mind that there are powers that mitigate its damage so it's not always one-shot, and that melee blocks entirely mitigate its damage.

[TaylorsContraction]

joke? people complain must because they bad to it? I got over 15 k/d with Daikyu in FFA, thats why it makes me understand it's OP

0 ttk time, no red dot on radar, no trace, hit or non-hit & copt. safe, no risk

wat MK1 have higher dps is bull sh-it, 1 hit and no slow down = god

A 15 kda does not imply op. When I get that with a braton, boar and strun wraith does it mean all those are op? It world only be op if everyone using daiq consistently got a high kda. Is that the case? No, I see plenty of people sucking with it. Also non team annihilation is pretty chaotic and it's very easy to stay on the sidelines picking people off.

[Thalahssalyst]

What's wrong with one shot weapons, in your opinion?

Also, keep in mind that there are powers that mitigate its damage so it's not always one-shot, and that melee blocks entirely mitigate its damage.

Easy to do actually, the range its not a problem with fast mobility, I dont see people blocking and shooting at the same time, I cant go agains a bow user with my melee, and stay close to he, i dont want to be a "easy target" vs bow user, so melee its irrelevant, lets be serious, no one its going to change to melee, block the arrow, and shoot...

About powers, no opinion, its something unique on warframe that makes difference between a normal game shooter with swords, and warframe.

[cary2010haha]

A 15 kda does not imply op. When I get that with a braton, boar and strun wraith does it mean all those are op? It world only be op if everyone using daiq consistently got a high kda. Is that the case? No, I see plenty of people sucking with it. Also non team annihilation is pretty chaotic and it's very easy to stay on the sidelines picking people off.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=449667789

haha, i am a bad player, and in one FFA game 2 Daikyu go in to top 3.    and strun wraith can't handle copt. valkyr, their attack have too low damage on me :P And I am a half join :P

and every time I hit someone, I have 20% gain full health :P 

PS: lucky,  no world on fire mad ember :P or the last 5 owo will be very hard

[rockscl]

 

 

lol, i knew you where hispanic, because when i read your text in spanish everything makes sense xd

[TaylorsContraction]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=449667789

haha, i am a bad player, and in one FFA game 2 Daikyu go in to top 3. and strun wraith can't handle copt. valkyr, their attack have too low damage on me :P And I am a half join :P

and every time I hit someone, I have 20% gain full health :P

PS: lucky, no world on fire mad ember :P or the last 5 owo will be very hard

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here... That only DaiQ people have good scores? Right now without an elo system new players end up as feeders. You take top 3 people and pin them against only each other, you'd have a very different result.

[cary2010haha]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here... That only DaiQ people have good scores? Right now without an elo system new players end up as feeders. You take top 3 people and pin them against only each other, you'd have a very different result.

Do you read my post fully?

0 ttk time, no red dot on radar, no trace,  hit or non-hit & copt. safe, no risk

thats wat Daikyu doing in WF.

and you say it's balance :P

 

 

lol, i knew you where hispanic, because when i read your text in spanish everything makes sense xd

bad eng only :P 

but if WF have a true one-shot shotgun(not tiger, thats not 1 hit:P), even it needs charge for 2 second, it'll still OP as Daikyu.

My thought is every time after a player shoots a one shot weapon, they should not able to copt./slide or melee :P  Thats a true trade off , not copt away every time after you shot

[Nighttide77]

Easy to do actually, the range its not a problem with fast mobility, I dont see people blocking and shooting at the same time, I cant go agains a bow user with my melee, and stay close to he, i dont want to be a "easy target" vs bow user, so melee its irrelevant, lets be serious, no one its going to change to melee, block the arrow, and shoot...

About powers, no opinion, its something unique on warframe that makes difference between a normal game shooter with swords, and warframe.

 

You...actually didn't answer my question about what's wrong with 1-shot weapons.

 

I also don't agree that melee is irrelevant against a Daikyu, or any ranged weapon.  I've gotten my fair share of KO's using melee, and survived assaults from 3 different assailants because I was blocking and escaped as soon as I saw my stamina bar drop ridiculously fast.  I believe melee is a totally viable way of handling the Daikyu.

 

And yes, I would change to melee, block and arrow, and then draw a rifle/pistol to shoot.  That's what holster rate mods are for.  In Team Fortress 2, there is a Pyro melee weapon that rewards a player for setting their enemies on fire and then using the melee.  I find that similar to this.  Glaive and Kestrel both also fill this area to some extent.  When the Redeemer is balanced for PvP, I'm sure it'll change lots of things.

 

One strategy I have not considered when fighting a Daikyu user, too, is to use long-range.  Most of the time Daikyu users are bad at close or long range, either due to reaction and dodging or flight time of the arrow (respectively).  A decent Latron or other high-damage, high accurate weapon might outdo a Daikyu pretty well at long range.  Medium range seems to be where the Daikyu shines most, so that can also be seen as a weakness, depending on the Daikyu user.

[Nighttide77]

0 ttk time, no red dot on radar, no trace,  hit or non-hit & copt. safe, no risk

 

There is a trace...unless DE didn't fix the true black energy color for the arrows.  I can usually see where my opponent's arrows are coming from.

 

If you count the charge time, its ttk time is among the highest of weapons.

[cary2010haha]

There is a trace...unless DE didn't fix the true black energy color for the arrows.  I can usually see where my opponent's arrows are coming from.

 

If you count the charge time, its ttk time is among the highest of weapons.

thats not a true trace, true trace is a air rail last for 2 second in air, from where you shoot and where the round lands :P

Charge time never should say as TTK time, TTK time means the length of time you see&hit a opp. until they die.

 

 

 

 

it's 0

[Nighttide77]

thats not a true trace, true trace is a air rail last for 2 second in air, from where you shoot and where the round lands :P

Charge time never should say as TTK time, TTK time means the length of time you see&hit a opp. until they die.

 

it's 0

 

Oh, that's what you mean by trace...dude...there'd be so many lines I'd have to toggle that option off, heh.  That would be a good option to be able to toggle if a player so chooses.

 

And gotcha on TTK *shrug* I know I don't know everything about terminology and maths, and I'm not afraid to humble myself on that.

[-Kryptyk-]

you all realize that not even a sniper rifle or bow in real life will be an instant kill unless it's a headshot, right?  there should be something a bit more realistic about being shot by a bow or sniper rifle where it at least makes you stumble or trip, give you a chance to get away or take cover.  PvP is horribly unbalanced, and some of the maps even give an advantage to bow users (long corridors with high vantage points).  You also shouldn't be able to fire a bow and then instantly copter away - it kind of takes time to put a weapon that big away to slide (don't ask me how that mechanic would be possible in this game, considering coptering is horribly unrealistic anyway, but I'm starting to digress).  

 

If you have a weapon of that kind of damage, there should be proper compensation.  That's all this boils down to.

 

Nighttide77 got it right in fighting against bow users.  Naturally, bows have a dropoff point for damage, and it's hard to use them at close range, so use that to your advantage.  It's hard to lose a battle when you know the weakness of the enemy and use it against them.

 

just my two cents

Edited May 28, 2015 by PriZms

[cary2010haha]

you all realize that not even a sniper rifle or bow in real life will be an instant kill unless it's a headshot, right?  there should be something a bit more realistic about being shot by a bow or sniper rifle where it at least makes you stumble or trip

 

 

Off topic but discu.

Nope, sniper don't need a HS to instant kill you or me, chest shot also can.

 

And if you get shot in the leg and the wound is terrible enough, you will pass out, with out help to stop the bleeding, you will die for it before you wake.

 

that's how it works when we use a elephant gun shoot a boar, any part, hit & die :P   Sadly not many place can do hunt games now. 

Edited May 28, 2015 by Cary2010haha