Going "back" Is Not The Answer

[RealityMachina]

Use the search function.  Or better yet, google it.  These things are not difficult.  They have also been recommended before.

That's not how debates work. You say you got proof contray to what other people are saying, you damn well better provide said proof.

Edited May 21, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Use the search function.  Or better yet, google it.  These things are not difficult.  They have also been recommended before.

I don't think so, Dave. I don't see why anyone else should have to do the work to prove your argument for you. That's not how rhetoric works. You want say these things exist? Then please link to them. If you say these things are not difficult to find, then it should be easy for you to do so, right? Certainly you should relish the chance to shut up the naysayers with cold hard irrefutable proof.

But this reads very much like a dodge to me. If it was as easy as you say, you'd have already done it and come riding in on your chariot of correctness with proof to slap down everyone who disagrees with you.

Edit: In fact, this whole line of argument you're taking (attempting to dismiss MJ's argument because he got one thing wrong - only wrong by degree at that, and when it was tangential to his argument anyway) reads like a dodge because you can't actually address his argument. As far as I can tell, the only thing that MJ's actually gotten wrong so far is how Grineer on Earth can shrug off ultimates, while it takes ones on Ceres or possibly Sedna to do so. But that mistake is pretty minor since the thrust of his argument deals with other things.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Enot83]

That's not how debates work. You say you got proof contray to what other people are saying, you damn well better provide said proof.

 

Interesting, googling my user name and twitch a common streaming program came back with the information you asked for.

 

I'm not the one putting out inaccurate information.  Earth, clearly, the place where crush stops killing any grineer in one hit.

 

You make claims, with no proof, I make them with proof, and tell you to go look, which again, google and these forums both would provide you with the path to it.

 

 

Put in some effort.

 

 

Edit: In fact, this whole line of argument you're taking (attempting to dismiss MJ's argument because he got one thing wrong - only wrong by degree at that, and when it was tangential to his argument anyway) reads like a dodge because you can't actually address his argument. As far as I can tell, the only thing that MJ's actually gotten wrong so far is how Grineer on Earth can shrug off ultimates, while it takes ones on Ceres or possibly Sedna to do so. But that mistake is pretty minor since the thrust of his argument deals with other things.

 

He was and is wrong about more than one thing and you as well as others like to argue that it's an absolute.  You're argument is built of invalid and incorrect information.  Now that it's been thrown in your face you want to back track out of it.

 

Ash is vulnerable during attacks and does take damage, but not from toxic ancients at this time, be it through intent or a bug.  Excalibur deals with grineer without any problem using his ultimate.

 

At what point do we need to examine every claim made by you or your ilk in order to wipe our hands clean and be done with this?  Likely never, but I'd rather that people who do take the time to read have correct information.

 

That way, regardless of their determination of agreeing or not with the original thread topic, they are making that decision based on facts not misinformation thrown out by others who do so simply to sway the argument one way or another.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Enot83

[Kyte]

Interesting, googling my user name and twitch a common streaming program came back with the information you asked for.

 

I'm not the one putting out inaccurate information.  Earth, clearly, the place where crush stops killing any grineer in one hit.

 

You make claims, with no proof, I make them with proof, and tell you to go look, which again, google and these forums both would provide you with the path to it.

 

Put in some effort.

He got one thing wrong. One. And he owned up to it.

If you bothered to record, test and upload, why not go the final stretch and post the link?

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Interesting, googling my user name and twitch a common streaming program came back with the information you asked for.

 

I'm not the one putting out inaccurate information.  Earth, clearly, the place where crush stops killing any grineer in one hit.

 

You make claims, with no proof, I make them with proof, and tell you to go look, which again, google and these forums both would provide you with the path to it.

 

Put in some effort.

That's not how argument works. If you make a claim, you back it up. You don't just say "I've made this proof but you have to find it yourself because it's not too hard."

I actually did just look at your proof even though it only encourages bad habits on your part. And I have to say I'm amazed. Are you serious? Literally the only thing all those videos show is how, yes, crush can kill grineer on Earth. Something that MJ already admitted he was wrong about.

Now can you address the rest of his argument now, rather than something he's already conceded on?

Edited May 21, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Enot83]

That's not how argument works. If you make a claim, you back it up. You don't just say "I've made this proof but you have to find it yourself because it's not too hard."

I actually did just look at your proof even though it only encourages bad habits on your part. And I have to say I'm amazed. Are you serious? Literally the only thing all those videos show is how, yes, crush can kill grineer on Earth. Something that MJ already admitted he was wrong about.

Now can you address the rest of his argument now, rather than something he's already conceded on?

 

This was on Kiste (just fyi this isn't found at Earth).  Get your information correct.

 

Other points brought forward regarding skills are also incorrect.

 

We have already addressed all the arguments, going back....

 

You, MJ, others believe that invulnerability is needed on these skills.

 

Myself, the OP, others believe it is not necessary.

 

It was that simple and has been that simple.  Go back and you'll find that was explained before.

 

The only reason I've gone through anything other than the above has been to make sure that the correct information is provided so that others do not get mislead by the claims of others who just make them at the drop of a hat to win an argument rather than for the sake of a proper discussion.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Enot83

[Cpl_Facehugger]

This was on Kiste (just fyi this isn't found at Earth).  Get your information correct.

It seems you were right now that I've looked at it full screen. Prior to that it looked more like you were dealing with level 19 troopers and the like due to pixelation, which is just where you'd expect to find Earth troopers on Lua. I didn't examine it more closely though I should have. My only defense is that I was considering how you've already... Shall we say misrepresented one part of your argument (the BSN stuff - people complaining about Novaguard OP aren't even a vocal minority and have never been so), I wasn't inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt. It seems I owe you an apology for that. You were right, you can oneshot reasonably high level enemies with an ult. I'm presuming that's a mag loaded with full focus? However, your own videos prove that MJ's underlying thrust: That at some point, it becomes impossible to oneshot Grineer, is accurate. That point is around level 30+.

Now, having finally looked at it in full screen, when you went to kill a trooper (0:59 in this video) who didn't get hit beforehand, he survived. In the other minute long video, you yourself mention that they start surviving once they hit level ~30 or so. Considering that MJ's point is how there comes a point when ults can't one-shot grineer, and considering that this point is secondary to his main thrust in general, you should understand why this isn't much of a refutation, yes?

 

Other points brought forward regarding skills are also incorrect.

 

Then show as such. Because even if your "proof" here is accurate, and it's only partly so considering that higher level grineer do in fact survive one cast of crush, it's still just disproving one piece of MJ's argument, a tangential one at that. You can't just prove MJ's wrong about one thing and defeat his whole argument like that. Not with the way he's set it up.

 

We have already addressed all the arguments, going back....

 

You, MJ, others believe that invulnerability is needed on these skills.

 

Myself, the OP, others believe it is not necessary.

 

It was that simple and has been that simple.  Go back and you'll find that was explained before.

Actually, I don't necessarily think invulnerability is needed on these skills. I just think that it's not automatically a bad thing.

 

The only reason I've gone through anything other than the above has been to make sure that the correct information is provided so that others do not get mislead by the claims of others who just make them at the drop of a hat to win an argument rather than for the sake of a proper discussion.

Proper discussions involve honest discourse. They don't involve dismissing an entire argument based on a single conceded mistake elsewhere, nor trying to play shell games with evidence because "it's easy to find."

Edited May 21, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Enot83]

Again, I don't need to sit here and disprove every inaccurate claim you or others make.  I've already shown that you and others are wrong and simply make claims to sway the argument rather than provide facts.

 

You couldn't even be bothered to get your information right about the video the first time, which again, that information was provided in previous posts.

 

How many mistakes, because you've all made an incredible amount, need to be recorded and proven again and again, which btw most if not all of this is already common knowledge and accessible, through wiki, google, streams etc.

 

It is obvious that no amount of leading you to water will get you to drink,

 

If you think I argue that it is automatically a bad thing you again, have not read previous posts.

 

Edit, as stated... numerous times, I do not find invulnerability during ultimates/skills necessary and thus agree with the OP that we do not need it back.  Points brought forward have been based on incorrect information, other things have already been discussed and are obviously a difference of opinion.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Enot83

[Kyte]

Those mistakes would prolly matter more if they were important to the argument.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Again, I don't need to sit here and disprove every inaccurate claim you or others make.  I've already shown that you and others are wrong and simply make claims to sway the argument rather than provide facts.

Or you've shown that people can, gasp, make mistakes!

 

You couldn't even be bothered to get your information right about the video the first time, which again, that information was provided in previous posts.

Exactly so, and I apologize for that. I made the mistake of assuming that because you were mistaken about one thing, you were mistaken about something else. Then I went back and checked and found that you were, in fact, correct and not mistaken.

Well, I'm being charitable by now assuming you're simply misremembering the proof for one of your claims instead of willfully misrepresenting it. It could go both ways, but either way it's not good debate form, yeah?

 

How many mistakes, because you've all made an incredible amount, need to be recorded and proven again and again, which btw most if not all of this is already common knowledge and accessible, through wiki, google, streams etc.

Well, in a normal argument, you'd prove all of them. Or at least, all of the ones that are relevant to your argument. You wouldn't just rely on "general knowledge" or "google, wiki, streams, etc" because that's not how burden of proof actually works. Particularly with a source as mutable as Warframe, something that changes practically daily with hotfixes.

Could you perhaps give a list of specific "mistakes" that I and others in this thread have made, so I and those others can go and test?

 

It is obvious that no amount of leading you to water will get you to drink,

Which is why I outright said I was mistaken, yes? For someone supposedly interested in good debate, you have a hard time accepting concessions. Er, you do know what concessions are and why they're offered in context of a debate, right?

If you think I argue that it is automatically a bad thing you again, have not read previous posts.

You might want to reread my posts in this thread here. Because I'm not saying you're arguing it's automatically a bad thing. Someone else has, however.

I'm going after you because your arguments are not meeting the burden of proof, and that's just bad argument.

[Unknown924]

Here is an interesting observation:

Some of those who want invincibility during ults played Warframe without that invincibility.

How many of those who want invincibility removed during ults played Warframe without that invincibility?

 

Also, Enot83 would you care to say which points about abilites are incorrect?  You never actually say.

 

Sorry that what you provided as evidence earlier was inaccurate.  You are wrong, in most cases.  Providing information to the community that is not accurate to create an argument.

 

Right here you say MJ12 is wrong about most things.  What is he right about then?  Unless you specify we don't know.

 

If you can identify something as wrong, then you can tell other what you consider wrong and why it is wrong.

 

To make things easier for you, here are two correct statements about abilities from this thread:

At somepoint an ability can not kill enemies in a single use.

Invincibility was added to ultimate abilities in an update.

 

[ValhaHazred]

Not much to add that hasn't been said, but +1 to the triumphant return of invuln. frames.

[Thustra]

Maybe instead of nerfing Warframe abilities to make the game more challenging, we just have better and/or more interesting enemies? I mean, I love the game, and I know it's still in beta, but we're not exactly dealing with tactical geniuses here. I actually avoid infested maps where possible because there's basically only one type of infested(melee) with differing levels of health (strong melee, weak melee, toxic dps melee).