If You Remove Coptering You Might As Well Remove The Entirety Of Melee.

[StinkyPygmy]

Frames that suck for engame content still work, they are just highly inefficient and a worse choice than any other frame.  Sure you could survive with Ember in a t4 survival mission, but you really wouldn't be contributing much of anything. I would much rather you bring Trinity or Nekros and actually be a benefit to the team instead.

Some frames are more usful then others, granted. But that doesn't mean one can't be helpful and not a detriment when using one of the less widely used frames. For the most part anyone that knows what they're doing can be useful. Hek, Banshee is widely considered usless yet has great CC (especially with a team because SQ becomes useful for stunlocks in emergencies) and increases dmg output greatly.

 

She is a perfect example of people not understanding the game mechanics and just parroting whatever opinion they hear first.

Not likeing a frame/weapon is fine, but its not often that something is actually, truely usless or a detriment. 

Sometimes it just requires a bit of know how and more skill then the meta. Theres nothing wrong with the meta of course, but there is a tonne of misinformation out there.

 

The same goes for melee. I don't use life strike (don't have it) yet before regen molt I was capable of going a good 40 minutes in T4 survival use miasma exclusively for emergencies. Even spamming molt wasn't necessary. Just needed rejuvination to save restores.

Ichors, stamina mods, well timed rolling and molt/venom was all I needed. 

It was difficult for sure, but definilty viable.

Edited June 20, 2015 by StinkyPygmy

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Some frames are more usful then others, granted. But that doesn't mean one can't be helpful and not a detriment when using one of the less widely used frames. For the most part anyone that knows what they're doing can be useful. Hek, Banshee is widely considered usless yet has great CC (especially with a team because SQ becomes useful for stunlocks in emergencies) and increases dmg output greatly.

 

She is a perfect example of people not understanding the game mechanics and just parroting whatever opinion they hear first.

Not likeing a frame/weapon is fine, but its not often that something is actually, truely usless or a detriment. 

Sometimes it just requires a bit of know how and more skill then the meta. Theres nothing wrong with the meta of course, but there is a tonne of misinformation out there.

Yes, it does.  Every frame can use guns or swords, so just because you are shooting things doesn't make it a boon to the team.  What's important is what your frame is bringing to the table. Then there are frames like Valkyr that are an active detriment to the team. Sure she can go invulnerable, but her damage output drops through the floor, and she can't toggle out of it, meaning everyone else now has to carry her weight too.

[Ocaz]

I love threads that are as unintelligent as these. Boohoo bye bye coptering glitch. Without stamina we can sprint indefinitely. So sad. Hard life, rough world I know. I'm sure parkour 2.5 is like so bad at helping us get to places faster.

[StinkyPygmy]

Yes, it does.  Every frame can use guns or swords, so just because you are shooting things doesn't make it a boon to the team.  What's important is what your frame is bringing to the table. Then there are frames like Valkyr that are an active detriment to the team. Sure she can go invulnerable, but her damage output drops through the floor, and she can't toggle out of it, meaning everyone else now has to carry her weight too.

I wasn't talking just about shooting things. Ember has effectivly guaranteed fire procs for one. Short live compared to some CC, but effective if you're quick off the mark. In vals case  don't even consider hysteria (its broken as fook), but a paralysis and war cry build can help if, once again, you and your team know what they're doing.

Just because its requires a bit more effort and know how then pressing 4, it does not = "useless".

God knows how many times Ive ended up carrying team ( or most of it) through a long void in banshee despite the host using (insert meta frame/weapon combo here).

 

Once again = more effort does not equal usefulness.

Some frames require more work to use effectively for endless either because of lackluster skills (in need of a rework) or because they don't have some go-to ability to spam in a corner of the map.

Its kind of weird to me how thats now what is defined as "usefull".

 

Side note: Killing things fast and in great numbers is still a hek of a lot more helpful and fun then waiting for peacemaker to drop off in dmg.

Edited June 20, 2015 by StinkyPygmy

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I wasn't talking just about shooting things. Ember has effectivly guaranteed fire procs for one. Short live compared to some CC, but effective if you're quick off the mark. In vals case  don't even consider hysteria (its broken as fook), but a paralysis and war cry build can help if, once again, you and your team know what they're doing.

Just because its requires a bit more effort and know how then pressing 4, it does not = "useless".

God knows how many times Ive ended up carrying team ( or most of it) through a long void in banshee despite the host using (insert meta frame/weapon combo here).

 

Once again = more effort does not equal usefulness.

Some frames require more work to use effectively for endless either because of lackluster skills (in need of a rework) or because they don't have some go-to ability to spam in a corner of the map.

Its kind of weird to me how thats now what is defined as "usefull".

 

Side note: Killing things fast and in great numbers is still a hek of a lot more helpful and fun then waiting for peacemaker to drop off in dmg.

So have an Ember tickling things with fire past the 40 minute mark, or you could have a Nekros doubling your drops (including life support) or a Trinity giving you infinite energy, full heals, and 99% Damage Reduction. Ember sounds pretty useless in that situation to me.

[StinkyPygmy]

So have an Ember tickling things with fire past the 40 minute mark, or you could have a Nekros doubling your drops (including life support) or a Trinity giving you infinite energy, full heals, and 99% Damage Reduction. Ember sounds pretty useless in that situation to me.

I could have all 3.

Either way, I'm not denying some frames are more useful. That unfortunately is based purely off abilities that don't suffer from scaling issues.

Point being, if a player knows what they're doing and has a team that also knows how to take advantage of openings and position etc, then an ember can be just as useful or close to. PLus its a hek of a lot more fun the standing in a  corner spamming desecrate.

 

I'd rather an ember player that knows what they're doing then a nekros or trinity that I have to sit there and baby sit.

believe it or not, there are quite a lot of players out there that need to be baby sat even with the tankiest and most useful frames out there.

Skill and knowledge of mechanics goes a hell of a long way.

The same goes for melee application.

A good portion of the players that discount melee generally use knockdowns as an argument against melee yet they never seem to roll or time things effectively either. Even the simple act of rolling and knowing when to roll will increase melees ( and general gameplay) effectiveness greatly.

[Melos-mevim]

Allow me to rephrase.

 

Why would I use the new parkour moves if coptering/melee air attacks get me around way faster?

 

Personally, I find melee air attacks to be a far bigger problem than coptering, since they provide a stupid amount of vertical mobility as well as horizontal. They're basically a nerfed version of Tail Wind. I've heard rumors that they're getting nerfed, and I would be pretty upset if they aren't nerfed severely. That was basically the entire point of my thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/459238-will-directional-air-melee-render-parkour-20-completely-worthless-all-evidence-says-yes-so-heres-how-we-change-that/

 

if parkour 2.0 is slower than coptering then I think the devs screwed up. parkour should be just as fast as coptering not slower

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I could have all 3.

We are assuming the players have similar skill. I was also suggesting this as your final free spot. You can't take all three if you only have one spot left, and Trinity or Nekros are much better options.

 

Ember will never even come close to being as useful as Trinity or Nekros on a long survival.

[Thalahssalyst]

For that people who complain about speed, on p 2.0, you will can build your speed with constant movement, no just a typedo with fury mod, constant movement = more and more speed when doing parkour...

It is better than melee bugge

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

if parkour 2.0 is slower than coptering then I think the devs screwed up. parkour should be just as fast as coptering not slower

 

Parkour 2.0 might also require more skill to use than pressing a button and flying across the entire tileset, which would still make coptering a superior option. Still, we really have no information on whether any of this is true.

 

Lower mobility might actually be a good thing, mainly in PvP where everyone is constantly flying across the map at a million billion miles an hour and reaching your spawnpoint in a matter of seconds.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

For that people who complain about speed, on p 2.0, you will can build your speed with constant movement, no just a typedo with fury mod, constant movement = more and more speed when doing parkour...

It is better than melee bugge

The maps really aren't set up to support constant Parkour. All this means is the game is going to be a lot slower and more tedious. Again, they should have left in coptering but toned down staff weapon's coptering range

[Thalahssalyst]

The maps really aren't set up to support constant Parkour. All this means is the game is going to be a lot slower and more tedious. Again, they should have left in coptering but toned down staff weapon's coptering range

No, with p 2.0 they are going to rework all of the maps, it was announced on recent livestreams.

And no, they need to remove it, because no one is going to use the new mechanic.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

No, with p 2.0 they are going to rework all of the maps, it was announced on recent livestreams.

And no, they need to remove it, because no one is going to use the new mechanic.

That means the new mechanic is bad.

[Feallike]

The maps really aren't set up to support constant Parkour. All this means is the game is going to be a lot slower and more tedious. Again, they should have left in coptering but toned down staff weapon's coptering range

 

OK.... If you haven't noticed they are building the Parkour 2.0 system FOR THE CURRENT TILE SETS. That is why you can jump off enemies. So your argument is beyond invalid. DE is building Parkour 2.0 for the current game not a game in the future. Even then they have stated in dev streams they are going to rework some tilesets to adapt to parkour in U17.

 

Also why in gods name would I waste time jumping on a wall and risk getting shot at when I could use my melee weapon to fly faster and longer. Your trying to defend coptering that you should give players choice. Though from the current standpoint of the game, I feel personally the game has to much choice. Giving players 2 alternatives forces developers to make these alternatives have pros and cons. Coptering has way to many pros and a stupidly low amount of cons. 

 

You have to give us a reason why would we use Parkour in place of coptering not why coptering isn't to good for Parkour. Your trying to convince us that Parkour is going to be just as good as coptering without first experiencing parkour 2.0. DE isn't willing to risk time and money on a huge mechanic that could be ignored because of a broken mechanic. They have seen time and time again that the playerbase doesn't like changing their gameplay even if it gives a better experience over all. It is better to destroy coptering to force players to adapt to a better system than nerf it and leave it because the playerbase using coptering will retaliate much more harshly. 

 

TL;DR:

 

Why would I do something uncomforable and hard like Parkour 2.0 when I could keep doing the same old working system of Coptering. I don't care the DE spent time and money on this new system. I don't want to learn something new when what I know works fine.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Feallike

[Thalahssalyst]

That means the new mechanic is bad.

You still have not seen it.

Coptering is bad, and is going to be removed...

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

OK.... If you haven't noticed they are building the Parkour 2.0 system FOR THE CURRENT TILE SETS. That is why you can jump off enemies. So your argument is beyond invalid. DE is building Parkour 2.0 for the current game not a game in the future. Even then they have stated in dev streams they are going to rework some tilesets to adapt to parkour in U17.

 

Also why in gods name would I waste time jumping on a wall and risk getting shot at when I could use my melee weapon to fly faster and longer. Your trying to defend coptering that you should give players choice. Though from the current standpoint of the game, I feel personally the game has to much choice. Giving players 2 alternatives forces developers to make these alternatives have pros and cons. Coptering has way to many pros and a stupidly low amount of cons. 

 

You have to give us a reason why would we use Parkour in place of coptering not why coptering isn't to good for Parkour. Your trying to convince us that Parkour is going to be just as good as coptering without first experiencing parkour 2.0. DE isn't willing to risk time and money on a huge mechanic that could be ignored because of a broken mechanic. They have seen time and time again that the playerbase doesn't like changing their gameplay even if it gives a better experience over all. It is better to destroy coptering to force players to adapt to a better system than nerf it and leave it because the playerbase using coptering will retaliate much more harshly. 

 

TL;DR:

 

Why would I do something uncomforable and hard like Parkour 2.0 when I could keep doing the same old working system of Coptering. I don't care the DE spent time and money on this new system. I don't want to learn something new when what I know works fine.

Why should you be required to change in the first place. Coptering was fun, fast, and balance for the most part.  Why should we be slowed down by a wall run system that's more clunkly and less fun?

 

If P2.0 is actually superior to coptering then people would migrate to it naturally, without the need for strongarm tactics.

You still have not seen it.

Coptering is bad, and is going to be removed...

If it requires strongarm tactics to get people to use it, then it is bad.

[Thalahssalyst]

Why should you be required to change in the first place. Coptering was fun, fast, and balance for the most part.  Why should we be slowed down by a wall run system that's more clunkly and less fun?

 

If P2.0 is actually superior to coptering then people would migrate to it naturally, without the need for strongarm tactics.

That is not true, first of all, and people will never going to understand, coptering is a bug, you can say it was touched, changed, balanced, but no.

 

Is not balanced, cover the whole map in one swing is not balance, is not a feature that works in 2 or 3 weapons (more with bo p typedo and dagguers)

Because you, or a tinny portion of players think that coptering is fun, meh...

You dont know if that is less fun... we still have no tested it.

 

[Feallike]

Why should you be required to change in the first place. Coptering was fun, fast, and balance for the most part.  Why should we be slowed down by a wall run system that's more clunkly and less fun?

 

If P2.0 is actually superior to coptering then people would migrate to it naturally, without the need for strongarm tactics.

 

The problem is the DE is wasting time and money on tilesets that players are ignoring because Coptering is to fast. Also no they wouldn't, if that was true then people wouldn't have spent months complaining about Melee 2.0 because stances where hard to farm and charge attacks where gone.

 

People don't like change no matter how good, if the DE left old system when they put in new ones the new ones would never be used. Coptering is easier than parkour. Remember how people complain about Rhino and Newbie Rhino players?

 

That is because those players have played Rhino since they started the game and won't adapt to any other frame because Rhino requires no super rare mods to be good even if Nova is better Rhino is easier to use and just as almost as good mid game. 

 

 

TL;DR: Players like easy more than better. Even if Parkour 2.0 is faster Coptering will be easier so coptering players won't change to Parkour 2.0. This is evident by Melee 2.0 where people spent months complaining over the removal of Charge attacks, and star chart 2.0 where people complained about having to waste a couple seconds over going to different parts of the ship.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Feallike

[(XBOX)BluAina]

In Warframe, melees are only useful for movement enhancement only. Period.

This ^^^^^^^

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

That is not true, first of all, and people will never going to understand, coptering is a bug, you can say it was touched, changed, balanced, but no.

So were combos in the Fighting game genre. So were grenade jumps. Etc.

 

The problem is the DE is wasting time and money on tilesets that players are ignoring because Coptering is to fast. Also no they wouldn't, if that was true then people wouldn't have spent months complaining about Melee 2.0 because stances where hard to farm and charge attacks where gone.

 

People don't like change no matter how good, if the DE left old system when they put in new ones the new ones would never be used. Coptering is easier than parkour. Remember how people complain about Rhino and Newbie Rhino players?

 

That is because those players have played Rhino since they started the game and won't adapt to any other frame because Rhino requires no super rare mods to be good even if Nova is better Rhino is easier to use and just as almost as good mid game. 

 

 

TL;DR: Players like easy more than better. Even if Parkour 2.0 is faster Coptering will be easier so coptering players won't change to Parkour 2.0. This is evident by Melee 2.0 where people spent months complaining over the removal of Charge attacks, and star chart 2.0 where people complained about having to waste a couple seconds over going to different parts of the ship.

If Parkour were better then people would switch. People spent months complaining because the new melee system was based around difficult to obtain mods.  They had the old system removed and lacked access to the new system.

 

Rhino - Nova; Apples - Oranges.

 

The ship isn't an improvement. Change for the sake of change is NOT a good thing. There should be a real reason behind the change.

[TheBrsrkr]

So were combos in the Fighting game genre. So were grenade jumps. Etc.

Both of those things had additional work done on them to make them actual mechanics. They were not just left in their crude state like coptering was.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Both of those things had additional work done on them to make them actual mechanics. They were not just left in their crude state like coptering was.

And? The point is they started off as glitches too. They were embraced and enhanced. The same thing should have been done with coptering.

[Thalahssalyst]

And? The point is they started off as glitches too. They were embraced and enhanced. The same thing should have been done with coptering.

Yes but they are going to replace copt with a better mobility system.

Not based on a bug.

A true feature.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Yes but they are going to replace copt with a better mobility system.

Not based on a bug.

A true feature.

If it was better then they would not have had to remove coptering. Everything that I have seen from the new wall run system looks terrible.

[TheBrsrkr]

If it was better then they would not have had to remove coptering. Everything that I have seen from the new wall run system looks terrible.

They removed coptering because it was unpolished, not balanced between weapons, and is potentially going to be rendered obsolete by Parlour 2.5.