Power Creep, Feature Creep, And De's "year Of Quality"

[Hisophonic]

I didn't know the "Year of Quality" lasted a couple months.

I now know that a year lasts for less than 12 months.

[(PSN)gino1313]

Hour+ long T4 Survival and Wave 40+ T4 Defense should be considered "aberrant missions" because they stretch the difficulty much further than it was probably originally intended to. They are not defined as "endgame" and the only reason that they could be considered such is because we can handle them. That is, if Boltor Prime, or the usual suspects were incapable of scratching enemies at this level, it wouldn't be considered endgame, it'd simply be impossible, like a 10 hour T4 Survival run. It's our gear that defines our endgame, not the endgame that defines the gear. 

 

Subsequently, DE has designed "endgame" content such as the Escalation Rift Sigil alert, not necessarily because they endorse this as being an acceptable level of difficulty, but because they are aware that we can handle it. It's the weapons and powers that we use that have caused these ridiculous enemies to be introduced. 

 

I don't think Synoid needed "fixing". The nerf was fine, and I think handled well. The community always cries out in rage anytime anything remotely popular is touched, so the devs have almost have no choice but to "shrug it off". What do you want them to say on the matter exactly? 

 

I disagree entirely with your viewpoint. I do agree that we could do with some adjustment on health/damage scaling overall, but that's a pretty deep can of worms.

THIS IS THE MAIN PROBLEM!!!!!!!

 

"creep" is really just a term for an unintended problem. This can arise from any number of sources, thus the prefixes (power, feature). But a creep is a creep nonetheless. DE should decide where endgame is, not hand tailor it to the builds requiring 30 hrs of gameplay to make.

 

We as the community have to put our feet firmly on the ground and hold back the urge to scream, "New stances! New tilesets! New new new!"

 

As more and more buffs, balances and other mechanics are implemented, unintentional problems, like manics sneaking up on you, like nullies taking 30 sniper rounds to kill, rise up and make the core game so much less impressive. The YoQ needs to be about DE and the community working on fixing these together, and avoiding new problems.

Edited June 29, 2015 by (PS4)gino1313

[PKommander]

To OP...this game, since when endless missions were introduced, never had a true endgame. It's quite useless to blame DE for how they change mechanics in game, get us new OP weapons, buff enemies or add even more difficult missions.

You do not seem to get the point: if you are looking for a game where "endgame" is a very well defined and limited thing, this is not the game for you, as endgame here is defined by how many minutes, waves or rounds a squad can do in an endless mission. Also got to add that few warframe abilities scale with enemy's level, health, shields or whichever stat, therefore it's quite difficult to reach a very high score in any of those missions. This situation will not change, unless those type of mission get a level cap or are removed, and both would be very stupid moves in my opinion.

The only real challenge this game offers, for now, is lasting as long as possible in an endless mission: if we get an endgame, you remove that possibility and the challenge seriously reduces. That's all.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

No. If you couldn't handle the Manic before it's nerf, then you were doing something horribly wrong or failed to temporarily change your tactics for one simple enemy. It's basically a fast butcher now. The Nullifier is also fairly balance except for the fact that it's bubble punishes low ROF weapons. It's weapon could be changed too, so i'll agree on that.

 

Broseph, please. It's not a matter of being able to handle the manic or not. Manics aren't all that difficult, except for the ones who had those instakill kicks in that one darvo tac alert.

 

It's a matter of the manic's original i-frames being so long that the optimal way to beat them wasn't actually fighting them, it's triggering the i-frames once and then waiting five seconds while the i-frames run out. This is, needless to say, not very fun. Because there's no real interactivity there.

 

Manics already have a damage cap and a teleport when injured behavior that lets them survive the hugely powerful weapons Tenno carry, the i-frames are unnecessary.

 

As far as nullifiers go, the fact that nullifiers have shields that protect other enemies is fine, but the fact that those shields punish high damage/low ROF weapons and the fact that they also carry hugely powerful rifles isn't. Non-boss enemies shouldn't have everything like that.

 

 

Hour+ long T4 Survival and Wave 40+ T4 Defense should be considered "aberrant missions" because they stretch the difficulty much further than it was probably originally intended to.

 

40 minute T4S and 40wave T4D shouldn't really be considered abberant because they're the only way to get a reasonable hit on rotation C. When rotation C already has stuff like forma and incredibly low drop rates on some parts (lolki systems???), and when keys are limited, the only real way to actually acquire these things without lots of luck or trade chat (which is a very inconvenient system) is by hitting up rotation C as much as you can. DE's RNG system is absurdly painful and player unfriendly if you deny players the ability to double dip on desired rewards.

 

Also 40 minute T4S/40wave T4D is basically right around raid level content, so it shouldn't be abberant on that score either, since raids have been billed for awhile as endgame content.

 

 

 

They are not defined as "endgame" and the only reason that they could be considered such is because we can handle them. That is, if Boltor Prime, or the usual suspects were incapable of scratching enemies at this level, it wouldn't be considered endgame, it'd simply be impossible, like a 10 hour T4 Survival run. It's our gear that defines our endgame, not the endgame that defines the gear.

 

I disagree on that score because we have raids, which are not endless missions.

 

 

 

Subsequently, DE has designed "endgame" content such as the Escalation Rift Sigil alert, not necessarily because they endorse this as being an acceptable level of difficulty, but because they are aware that we can handle it. It's the weapons and powers that we use that have caused these ridiculous enemies to be introduced.

 

The rift sigil alert wasn't endgame, it was a pure lulz thing. Actual endgame is raids. Given how raids are level 70-90, I find it really hard to believe that DE doesn't want to balance for that level of content, you know?

 

 

 

I don't think Synoid needed "fixing". The nerf was fine, and I think handled well. The community always cries out in rage anytime anything remotely popular is touched, so the devs have almost have no choice but to "shrug it off". What do you want them to say on the matter exactly?

 

So you call a formerly effective weapon being rendered virtually unusable handling a nerf well? You virtually require ammo mutation to use a synoid now and even that isn't really enough to actually main with it. (Edit: Possible exception for primed ammo mutation which I never bought, but requiring a primed mod so a gun doesn't suck, a primed mod that is garbage in 99% of other situations at that, is categorically not balanced.) Worse, the DPS is the same, so the only nerf it took was to usability.

 

A much smarter nerf would be to cut the range significantly so it's a close range weapon and a competitor to the Brakk, and maybe, if that wasn't enough, increase the ROF to reduce usability, but not to the extent that you'll run out of ammo within three waves of outer terminus.

 

Doubly so when synoid's ammo consumption is difficult to gauge due to how the beam mechanic works in this game, meaning chances are you will waste lots of ammo on already dead targets with the synoid's now insane ROF.

 

What I want DE to say about this is "we realize we overnerfed this and will tweak it again to fix." Because right now the weapon went from top tier to garbage tier. I almost never see a synoid these days and even when I do, a lot of the time the synoid user is asking me to drop ammo restores.

 

Bonus points if DE says "we'll be more careful about nerfs in the future to avoid overnerfing."

 

Because make no mistake, DE has a history of overnerfing, so people see their nerfing in the past and they think they'd rather have OP guns than have guns turned into unusable garbage.

 

 

 

I disagree entirely with your viewpoint. I do agree that we could do with some adjustment on health/damage scaling overall, but that's a pretty deep can of worms.

 

It's a deep can of worms that will have to be tackled sooner or later anyway.

 

Like, tomorrow Scott could nerf Boltor/Soma/etc prime into the ground and all he'd be doing is shifting the meta to something else, and possibly removing one of the few ways we have to avoid getting reamed as hard by the RNG depending on if he tackled the other top tier weapons at the same time.

You're not going to balance the game without balancing enemy scaling, that's a hard fact.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[(PSN)gino1313]

It's a deep can of worms that will have to be tackled sooner or later anyway.

Thanks for the defense there, lots of attacks with little evidence. Also, just as a little tip, instead of using that painful BBcode to input quotes just click reply then copy paste them into the edit menu, then you get the titles and it looks professional. Talking of course about the {quote} {/quote} code.

[Rhodan]

So far the only ''Year of Quality'' (*cynical laugh sounds*) content I've seen are Chroma and the (no sarcasm, actually brilliant) Excalibur and upcoming Frost rework, so I'm really not that sure that statement is still very viable when we compare that amount of content to all the less positive changes that have been made.

[Evanescent]

People tend to forget the mini fixes DE rolls out to make the game smoother.

I have not had a single crash in 7 months. That's saying something, you know, from how it used to be.

 

 

And I think OP knows, if we get down to just fixing Warframe, people who already complain of being bored will get even more bored and leave. We'd never finish, and the game would die without new content.

 

We need to be more patient.

 

Oh yeah, and about the challenge argument:

 

Why do I play a game? For FUN.

When a so called challenge stops me from having fun and makes it become a 'wait for 10 secs to shoot a few bullets and then wait again' and 'oops we stunlocked you and you died' and 'oops we're sorry but your snipers are f***ed!' it is not a challenge anymore. It has become a NUISANCE.

 

Fun challenges like a really tough boss that matches your movements and does hefty damage to make you stay on your toes are perfectly ok even if they are tough. But Annoying ones like one hit kills from a scrub unit are no longer letting me have fun and are detrimental to my experience.

Hence, those require rebalancing.

 

But you know the problem? There will always be 'elites' who will say 'git gud' and adamantly say that these things stay the way they are. If you give feedback, you're a 'scrub' and a 'loser'.

 

Heh.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Evanescent

[Criosaw]

People tend to forget the mini fixes DE rolls out to make the game smoother.

I have not had a single crash in 7 months. That's saying something, you know, from how it used to be.

 

 

And I think OP knows, if we get down to just fixing Warframe, people who already complain of being bored will get even more bored and leave. We'd never finish, and the game would die without new content.

 

We need to be more patient.

 

Oh yeah, and about the challenge argument:

 

Why do I play a game? For FUN.

When a so called challenge stops me from having fun and makes it become a 'wait for 10 secs to shoot a few bullets and then wait again' and 'oops we stunlocked you and you died' and 'oops we're sorry but your snipers are f***ed!' it is not a challenge anymore. It has become a NUISANCE.

 

Fun challenges like a really tough boss that matches your movements and does hefty damage to make you stay on your toes are perfectly ok even if they are tough. But Annoying ones like one hit kills from a scrub unit are no longer letting me have fun and are detrimental to my experience.

Hence, those require rebalancing.

 

But you know the problem? There will always be 'elites' who will say 'git gud' and adamantly say that these things stay the way they are. If you give feedback, you're a 'scrub' and a 'loser'.

 

Heh.

This is fair, they fix stuff. But bug fixes and fixing performance issues is not the same thing as gameplay tweaking and balancing, though.

Which is what the game needs most. Power creep in Warframe is real, let's face it, and fixing that will require a lot of changes in core gameplay mechanics. Longer they ignore this issue, harder it becomes to fix, and us being patient and just waiting won't help with that at all.

Once it's done, game will be much more accessible and enjoyable for wider audience, which is a good thing.

As for challenge, here i agree. Challenge should be fair and require thought from player, strategy, skill. Current challenges mostly based on power creep, so here's another reason to fix it.

"Elites" with such statements are nothing but a joke. It's obvious they can't acknowledge this problem, which totally ruins their credibility.

[(PSN)Pharen]

In Progress:

3 boss reworks

new parkour system

"sharkwing"

turrets

enemy deployables.

more new enemies

cloth system

ongoing PBR

more emotes

 

Completed:

lots of various performance enhancements

4 new emotes

new particle system

8 player raid

new tileset

new enemies and minibosses

 

We have a lot of work in progress, and if all this is functional by the end of the year then DE have kept there words. We're halfway through and DE are doing there best to keep releasing content to keep people happy while at the same time finish the big goals.

[EmptyDevil]

Broseph, please. It's not a matter of being able to handle the manic or not. Manics aren't all that difficult, except for the ones who had those instakill kicks in that one darvo tac alert.

 

It's a matter of the manic's original i-frames being so long that the optimal way to beat them wasn't actually fighting them, it's triggering the i-frames once and then waiting five seconds while the i-frames run out. This is, needless to say, not very fun. Because there's no real interactivity there.

 

Manics already have a damage cap and a teleport when injured behavior that lets them survive the hugely powerful weapons Tenno carry, the i-frames are unnecessary.

 

Manics never had an instant-kill and you're exaggerating the i-frames. They also don't have a damage cap, i was able to kill one with apparently 1 ~ 2 bullets on a very strong weapon. If the Manic did have this damage cap, it would be balanced. It's unlikely DE will add one though, since most players want to be able to press 4 or boltor prime something and expect it to die in 1 second.

[(PSN)gino1313]

In Progress:

3 boss reworks

new parkour system

turrets

enemy deployables.

This is what the year of quality should be.

 

 

In Progress:

"sharkwing"

turrets

enemy deployables.

more new enemies

cloth system

ongoing PBR

more emotes

This is what I see. At the top of the list, sharkwing, another feature. Turrets, an itch that can really only be annoying in multiples of 10. Deployables that remain unnamed and undescribed. New enemy types. New cloth system. While the YoQ has some very good promise, there remains the constant influx of new.

[(PSN)Pharen]

This is what the year of quality should be.

 

 

 

 

This is what I see. At the top of the list, sharkwing, another feature. Turrets, an itch that can really only be annoying in multiples of 10. Deployables that remain unnamed and undescribed. New enemy types. New cloth system. While the YoQ has some very good promise, there remains the constant influx of new.

Deployables were shown in the last devstream the grineer will be able to use deployable cover in future. They were like giant armoured airbags that pop when enough damage has hit them.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Manics never had an instant-kill and you're exaggerating the i-frames. They also don't have a damage cap, i was able to kill one with apparently 1 ~ 2 bullets on a very strong weapon. If the Manic did have this damage cap, it would be balanced. It's unlikely DE will add one though, since most players want to be able to press 4 or boltor prime something and expect it to die in 1 second.

 

I'm referring specifically to the manics in the third phase of the Blackout tactical alert. The ones which had kicks which ignored all forms of defenses including hysteria, iron skin, absorb, etc and dealt enough damage to oneshot a durability-optimized valkyr.

 

Those manics were the only ones that were a significant threat. My point is that outside of that one solitary example, manics have never been a tremendous threat to a skilled tenno. I object to their design purely on gameplay grounds because sitting around waiting for a timer to run out is lame.

 

I'm not exagerating the I-frames. Perhaps you don't recall how they were when they were first introduced, but originally the Manics had six seconds of invincibility whenever they were damaged and also regenerated health during this period making the even more tedious to kill. Now they've had their I-frames reduced so they're not *as* terribly designed, but the fact is that they still don't need I-frames at all and anything that means you can hit them with your sword but get literally no response is terrible.

 

As for the damage cap... No, manics really do have them. Load up a manic in the simulacrum and try to oneshot it with a crit build dread or opticor. It won't work. The reason it won't work is, dun dun dun, damage caps.

[SicSlaver]

You forget to mention mods. Primed mods is like double the creep.

[SicSlaver]

Hm, this reminds me of when they first rolled out damage 2.0. Enemies had to be scaled down and level 40s were as challenging as level 80s prior to damage 2.0. Now we're back to being able to handle level 80s.

[(XBOX)SlyTYRANT]

How about disconnects or crashes. Those need to be fixed. I'm always worried about crashing and losing rewards. Happens all the time. Way to frequent for a game that relies on long missions and rng.

Edited July 1, 2015 by (XB1)NEW MEXICO LOBO