Dojo Thoughts From Someone Not Interested In Large(R) Clan Play

[plznohurtme]

This post is going to be absurdly long so I'm putting the TL:DR at the start:

The current system encourages people to join a clan just for sake of joining a clan, not because they want to. It also discourages people from just being in a clan with their friends/family or just a small clan in general. I'm sure there will be a lot of opinions on this and tons of feedback, but I already saw a very good idea posted by Viziroth (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/41732-small-clans-will-there-be-a-point/page-6#entry509567) that I would like to expand a bit on here.

I think that adding additional time cost versus material spending is a very good way of allowing both small and large clans to co-exist without screwing anyone out of content. Right now build times range from 12 hrs to 1 day, and I think that they could definitely implement a system where the base costs were much lower (let's say reasonably attainable by one person with maybe 10 hours worth of farming per building) but have the base build time be substantially higher. Perhaps 5-10 day minimum build time with 10-15 day maximum build time would be a good time frame. Allow these to shrink down as more materials are added to the construction until they get down to the 12-24 hour range. Just shave time off the construction clock as more materials are added, or create tiers of materials that just cut off arbitrary time chunks (say 12 hour chunks).

A few things to put into context. I've been playing for a few months and have a decent store of mats, but my totals aren't in the realm of possibility here. This is what I have right now, and let's just assume that the two friends I predominantly play with have the same for sake of simplicity:

Credits ---------- 1008334

Alloy Plate ------ 2828

Circuits ---------- 15191

Ferrite ----------- 11895

Nano Spores ---- 158615

Plastids ---------- 10564

Polymer Bundle - 13395

Rubedo --------- 9519

Salvage --------- 47059

Edit: Corrected labeling: was labeled bio lab, was supposed to be chem lab, bio lab research costs added.

After the Dojo has been out for a day the amount of required buildings is now clear:

1 reactor

2 cross connector

1 oracle

1 energy lab

1 chem lab

1 bio lab

Costs for the above:

Credits ---------- 550000

Salvage --------- 455000

Circuits --------- 175000

Polymer Bundle - 140000

Alloy Plate ---- 15000

Ferrite ---------- 70000

Nano Spores ---- 240000

Forma ----------- 75 (1500 plat or drops from orokin zone)

So if we compare those costs versus what I have right now:

Credits ---------- done

Salvage --------- 410941 (total requirement is roughly 9.5 times what I have)

Circuits --------- 159809 (total requirement is roughly 11.5 times what I have)

Polymer Bundle - 126605 (total requirement is roughly 10.5 times what I have)

Alloy Plate ---- 12172 (total requirement is roughly 5.5 times what I have)

Ferrite ----------- 58105 (total requirement is roughly 5.5 times what I have)

Nano Spores ---- 81385 (total requirement is roughly 1.5 times what I have)

(if cross connector is needed)

Forma ----------- explained above

So if I was to find people with comparative materials to mine this would require a clan of 11 people plus me to just make the bare research essentials (even cutting that in half if we were going to put another 300 hours each in over the next 3 months is still pretty extreme). The chances of knowing that many people or getting that many people with the free materials is pretty low... which just means either joining a larger clan or waiting months (years) on content gated by farming requirements.

Below is all of the current costs as of update 8's release:

Dojo (base 100 capacity, 5 energy) Costs:

=========================================

Elbow Connector -1 capacity -1 energy

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 50000

Salvage --------- 65000

Ferrite ---------- 35000

Nano Spores ---- 120000

Forma ----------- 5

=========================================

Cross Connector -10 capacity -3 energy

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 50000

Salvage --------- 65000

Ferrite ---------- 35000

Nano Spores ---- 120000

Forma ----------- 5

=========================================

Small Hallway -1 capacity -1 energy

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 50000

Salvage --------- 65000

Ferrite ---------- 35000

Nano Spores ---- 120000

Forma ----------- 5

=========================================

T-Shaped Connector -5 capacity -2 energy

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 50000

Salvage --------- 65000

Ferrite ---------- 35000

Nano Spores ---- 120000

Forma ----------- 5

=========================================

Great Hall +200 capacity -2 energy

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 100000

Alloy Plate ---- 15000

Ferrite ---------- 60000

Rubedo --------- 30000

Forma ----------- 25

=========================================

Clan Hall +100 capacity +5 energy

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 1000000

Salvage --------- 65000

Circuits --------- 35000

Polymer Bundle - 35000

Forma ----------- 15

=========================================

Dueling Room -10 capacity -10 energy

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 75000

Salvage --------- 65000

Ferrite ---------- 35000

Nano Spores ---- 120000

Forma ----------- 10

=========================================

Reactor -5 capacity +25 energy

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 50000

Salvage --------- 65000

Circuits --------- 35000

Alloy Plate ---- 15000

Forma ----------- 5

=========================================

Elevator -2 capacity -2 energy

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 50000

Salvage --------- 65000

Ferrite ---------- 35000

Nano Spores ---- 120000

Forma ----------- 5

=========================================

Oracle (research) -2 capacity -5 energy

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 100000

Salvage --------- 65000

Circuits --------- 35000

Polymer Bundle - 35000

Forma ----------- 15

=========================================

Energy Lab -2 capacity -5 energy

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 100000

Salvage --------- 65000

Circuits --------- 35000

Polymer Bundle - 35000

Forma ----------- 15

=========================================

Chem Lab -2 capacity -5 energy

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 100000

Salvage --------- 65000

Circuits --------- 35000

Polymer Bundle - 35000

Forma ----------- 15

=========================================

Bio Lab -2 capacity -5 energy

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 100000

Salvage --------- 65000

Circuits --------- 35000

Polymer Bundle - 35000

Forma ----------- 15

=========================================

==Research Costs==

Every research show costs 500-1000 of the new drop, with one day worth of doing just random missions and not playing a whole lot I have 5 detonite ampules and 8 fieldron samples. Chem Lab research costs a total of 2500 detonite for all three of the current researches. Energy Lab research costs a total of 4250 fieldron for all six of the current researches (I'm assuming the first costs 500, the video didn't show the cost of the first because it was in progress).

Now it's entirely possible that more of these will drop in the orokin zone (I have only done one run thusfar) but assuming maybe 20/day on average per person we're talking over 200 days for an individual to farm it up (energy lab research). Right now I play with one other person who plays as much as I do, and someone who plays infrequently. Even if all three of us did this we'd be looking at two and a half months to just get the new materials for research. Again I'd rather see a way to speed up the process and have the price of entry lower... something like 1/3 the cost (150/225/300), but with 2x the time required per research, and allow the time to be lowered by increasing the materials (cut a day off via each "tier" of materials allowing it to be shortened by 3 days).

There are definitely large additional material costs attached to the research as well that's in magnitude of the problems that building the actual dojo has. Between the massive credit cost and the again huge amount of resources required this just seals the deal on any smaller clans having any chance of completing research with the current system.

=========================================

full Chem Lab research cost:

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 1750000

Detonite Ampule - 2500

Ferrite ---------- 110000

Polymer Bundle - 105000

Plastids --------- 40000

=========================================

full Energy Lab research cost:

=========================================

Credits ---------- 4500000

Fieldron Sample - 4250

Rubedo ----------- 10000

Circuits --------- 55000

Ferrite ---------- 100000

Plastids --------- 50000

Nano Spores ---- 175000

Polymer Bundle - 180000

--Fieldron Research will add roughly

--80000-100000 more materials cost

=========================================

full Bio Lab research cost:

=========================================

Credits ---------- 1750000

Mutagen Sample - 2500

Circuits --------- 20000

Ferrite ---------- 15000

Nano Spores ---- 175000

Polymer Bundle - 90000

--unknown remainder expect

--80000-150000 materials cost

=========================================

Chem Lab research costs:

=========================================

Detonite Injector Research

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 500000

Detonite Ampule - 500

Ferrite ---------- 20000

Polymer Bundle - 25000

Plastids --------- 10000

=========================================

Ignis Research

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 500000

Detonite Ampule - 1000

Ferrite ---------- 40000

Polymer Bundle - 50000

Plastids --------- 15000

=========================================

Ogris Research

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 750000

Detonite Ampule - 1000

Ferrite ---------- 50000

Polymer Bundle - 30000

Plastids --------- 15000

=========================================

Energy Lab research costs:

=========================================

Fieldron Research (estimated values)

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 500000

Fieldron Sample - 500

--unknown quantity for rest

--energy lab research varies materials

--compared to the bio lab

=========================================

Prova Research

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 500000

Fieldron Sample - 500

Rubedo ----------- 10000

Nano Spores ---- 50000

Polymer Bundle - 20000

=========================================

Supra Research

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 1000000

Fieldron Sample - 1000

Ferrite ---------- 50000

Plastids --------- 25000

Polymer Bundle - 50000

=========================================

Dera Research

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 750000

Fieldron Sample - 1000

Circuits --------- 20000

Nano Spores ---- 50000

Polymer Bundle - 25000

=========================================

Flux Rifle Research

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 750000

Fieldron Sample - 750

Circuits --------- 35000

Nano Spores ---- 75000

Polymer Bundle - 35000

=========================================

Lanka Research

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 1000000

Fieldron Sample - 1000

Ferrite ---------- 50000

Plastids --------- 25000

Polymer Bundle - 50000

=========================================

Bio Lab research costs:

=========================================

Mutagen Mass Research

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 500000

Mutagen Sample - 500

--unknown remainder expect

--80000-150000 materials

=========================================

Torid Research

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 500000

Mutagen Sample - 1000

Circuits --------- 20000

Nano Spores ---- 75000

Polymer Bundle - 40000

=========================================

Acrid Research

-----------------------------------------

Credits ---------- 750000

Mutagen Sample - 1000

Ferrite ---------- 15000

Nano Spores ---- 100000

Polymer Bundle - 50000

=========================================

Edited May 26, 2013 by plznohurtme

[Neskartu]

As someone who prefers to be in a small clan, these costs make me sad :(

[Sada_no_Fujin]

Im with you.

[Depar]

wow my 4 player clan almost cryed when i send them the costs. its pretty high xD

[plznohurtme]

I do want to note that I've done a couple of missions and saw 40-70 alloy plate (from individual drops on kiste, versus 10-20 pre u8) and I believe the salvage drop that I saw was 130 (don't recall pre u8 drop amounts on this). So there is some hope, but even then in the massive quantities required there's no way that would be enough to shrink the gap.

Edited May 24, 2013 by plznohurtme

[MXXVI]

Does make it all rather inaccessible...but I suppose the problem DE faces is that they want to add stuff that will appeal to "hardcore" organised gamer types. The World of Warcraft raiding guild types.

 

 

That being said, I'm sure they'll balance things out; this is a *very* new feature, and something they're clearly going to do a whole lot of work on in the coming months.

[dubignou81]

Go big or go home!

[dubignou81]

Heh, that was a joke, give it some time and you'll have a classy dojo

[Unknown924]

I agree. Making everything much cheaper and longer to build with the option to pay more for a faster build time seems fair.

How about cutting the remaining build time in half every time the cost of the room is paid again?

EX: Pay 4x extra = remaining time divided in half 4 times. In this case it would reduce build time to 1/16th of the original for paying a total of 5 times the base price(base + 4 x base).

A large clan should easily be able to get 4 times the resources of a smaller one.

[MXXVI]

Go big or go home!

 

I am RHINO.

 

My armoured genitals are bigger than your HEAD!

 

*pelvic thrust*

[Viziroth]

What they could do is make it so resources speed up the building process; for example, a cross section will build itself over 2 days, but with resources it can be built in only 5 minutes to an hour. Bigger things like the reactor could be 5 days or something.

This way, large clans will still get their stuff faster, having an advantage, and smaller clans don't have to grind resources for an entire month....

[Thrain856]

It is a bit irritating just how high the current prices are, but I don't mind working on a dojo over a long period of time with a group of friends.. 

[VScipii26]

What they could do is make it so resources speed up the building process; for example, a cross section will build itself over 2 days, but with resources it can be built in only 5 minutes to an hour. Bigger things like the reactor could be 5 days or something.

This way, large clans will still get their stuff faster, having an advantage, and smaller clans don't have to grind resources for an entire month....

 

That might be a little much.

The idea that I had was to keep the costs the same, but make it so that you could expedite the process by adding more materials and credits, and then follow it with the option of paying less at the cost of significantly more build time. By significantly, I mean a serious amount. Say, have the credits   for three or four times the build time, and no option to use platinum to insta-build in that case.

It's a little harsh on these smallers guilds (Hell, I'm in a one-man guild that I created only so I could have a cheeky, non-angsty sounding clan name), but it would still allow a dedicated group to build.

[jonathan8883]

Yeah, I'm not going to join a clan.  If being clanless screws me over, I'll just find something else to play.

[ZAPTONE]

as someone in a small clan with friends, i like this

[plznohurtme]

That might be a little much.

The idea that I had was to keep the costs the same, but make it so that you could expedite the process by adding more materials and credits, and then follow it with the option of paying less at the cost of significantly more build time. By significantly, I mean a serious amount. Say, have the credits   for three or four times the build time, and no option to use platinum to insta-build in that case.

It's a little harsh on these smallers guilds (Hell, I'm in a one-man guild that I created only so I could have a cheeky, non-angsty sounding clan name), but it would still allow a dedicated group to build.

Honestly your idea sounds similar to his, but yours just going about it in a different manner. I think all of us agree that there should be a lower cost/greater time option involved (definitely agree with you on the no plat speed ups, and there does need to be some base cost involved). You can read my OP to see my suggestion on the matter.

[Venarge]

Well. my 6 man clan and I are pretty much fired up to get this stuff.

There has to be an advantage to be in a big clan. This is it. Fight the good fight tenno.

[RekoHunter]

I don't want to join a big clan. I'm not looking to war frame for that type of game play experience that requires uber clans and having to put up with a bunch of people's drama. I'm good enough at making my own thank you :P I enjoy playing with my close friends.

 

It's kinda disheartening to be.... well... kicked in the balls like this. Being denied the abilty to help create and design a custom dojo with my friends. There is around 6 of us that play pretty regularly. We are all founders to so it kinda is a double slap in the face.

[Thrain856]

I don't want to join a big clan. I'm not looking to war frame for that type of game play experience that requires uber clans and having to put up with a bunch of people's drama. I'm good enough at making my own thank you :P I enjoy playing with my close friends.

 

It's kinda disheartening to be.... well... kicked in the balls like this. Being denied the abilty to help create and design a custom dojo with my friends. There is around 6 of us that play pretty regularly. We are all founders to so it kinda is a double slap in the face.

If you play fairly regularly, and continue to do so, I see no reason for you not to have a dojo a few months down the line.. 

[Law_Abiding_Engineer]

As someone who prefers to be in a small clan, these costs make me sad :(

 

 

same here

[TinyLesbianRobot]

I have seven members, all close friends, and I'm one of only two willing to put plat in the game, or play it often enough to earn resources on the level of what's needed.

 

You have my sword.  I don't want to get hamstringed because I like to play with my friends and not strangers.

[DRThree]

I totally agree with most everything mentioned.

 

Now that the developers have basically disregarded all the input and ideas that smaller clans have given up until this point.

Why should they stay?

Really, in my small clan of 8 members we have two Grand Masters and a Master Founder.

 

We where hoping that Warframe would be different that all the others out there and not just out for your money and then kick you to the curb.

I really hope Warframe listens to those whom have donated so much and have asked for very little in return.

 

Torn between staying or leaving!

[RekoHunter]

I totally agree with most everything mentioned.

 

Now that the developers have basically disregarded all the input and ideas that smaller clans have given up until this point.

Why should they stay?

Really, in my small clan of 8 members we have two Grand Masters and a Master Founder.

 

We where hoping that Warframe would be different that all the others out there and not just out for your money and then kick you to the curb.

I really hope Warframe listens to those whom have donated so much and have asked for very little in return.

 

Torn between staying or leaving!

 

With this update I've debated hitting reset and asking for a refund on my founders. The dojo was a really heavy blow. I wonder if they'd give refunds on founders...

[Lunaticked]

Rather play with my friends than a large clan. I like people my own age.

 

In the long run, a lack of being able to access content because I don't want to deal with dozens or hundreds of strangers and twelve year olds might push me out of the game.

[Dako_Shark]

It was a bit harsh when I saw the prices of the Dojo stuff. I mean I'm struggling just to get enough for actual general Blueprints. And with a clan of maybe 7 people, getting anything worth-while is going to take ages. I mean if there was more ways to get stuff I don't think I'd mind but at this point. I'd have to sit and grind the game nearly every day for a month to get anywhere.

I doubt I'll leave, but I doubt I'll be playing as much as I was hoping too.