R3DBelmont456 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Why, you ask, am I posting this?... well I'm a little old school I guess, so I come from a world where competitive shooters took lots of practice and dedication to get good at. You couldn't simply hop in and immediately start doing good, you needed to learn things like weapon spawn, power up spawns, player spawns, strategies, mechanics, the works... Back in that day, people who could land a rocket on a moving distant target, rail someone several times in a row, or plate someone while moving really fast, were revered... like these people there were no others, because they got to were they were with hard work and perseverance. As games have become more and more accessible, however, and winning is a lot easier to accomplish for someone who's never played a game in his life... that these strategies have gone from skill ceiling to unskilled playstyles. Meta in games that required years to learn, and even more so to master, are now looked down upon as "nooby". Using a projectile explosive (which required leading), something like a bow, a plasma launcher, and even a sniper are now considered noob weapons, when before it was the automatic weapons that were considered nooby, weak and subpar... Back in my day, bunny hopping at 1k UPS (units per second) while blowing people away with the rox launcher or the railgun was considered skillful... let's jump a bit a head, Halo... another one of my most fav shooters, where sniping someone without scoping in or throwing a random sticky grenade and having it stick someone half the map away was considered an achievement, machine guns were laughed at as precision weapons like the Magnum or the Battle Rifle separated the pros from the newbies. Even in Counter Strike (where I think the beginning of the MMS craze began)... required a large degree of skill due to the heavy amount of spread and recoil weapons had, and sniping was still challenging due to the lower time to kill implemented... SO what does ANY of this have to do with warframe... and the answer is simple, it seems as though the same thing that is plaguing other Competitive shooters is starting to plague warframe (and I'm not talking about melee spam and ability spam), what I mean by this is, I've always enjoyed sniping in shooters as long as it's a viable enough option that my skill makes a difference, and in Warframe sniping is as comfortable as it was (and still is) in the shooters I grew up playing, but it seems like every time I stomp a public match using ONLY the vectis, I'm met with things like "this isn't CoD" for example, when I'm playing the EXACT opposite of what that game is like to begin with. When you play Conclave with ANYTHING but weapons that are difficult to use (not just anyone can pick up and start doing amazing with it), like the latron, bows in general, the vectis, the lex and lex prime, the tigris, the tonkor, glaive throwing, etc... then you are BASICALLY playing CoD, you are playing conclave like a slow paced (because I've played CoD, and compared to what I'm used to, it's really slow despite it being a twitch shooter), casual, aim down sights, first person to shoot wins, kinda of game... There is no real effort required therefore no real satisfaction, and any satisfaction felt is artificial, as when you go toe to toe with someone who can out play you with the skills they've refined, you will quickly realize you have a LONG way to go before even understanding what it means to be "THE BEST AROUND, and NOTHING'S GONNA EEVAA KEEP YA DOOWN~!!" (I had to throw that reference in, lol...). My point is, it seems that conclave (and I will get to why I think this later), seems to be getting watered down little by little as more and more weapons and frames are allowed into it, you've got one side which embraces the cheesy no skill no effort tactics to pwn people in Conclave, and you have the side that refuses to fight with said tactics and will instead fight with the skills they've worked hard to obtain such as head shotting or leading shots, to pwn people in conclave... and such a division exists because of one thing, Instant Satisfaction and Gratification... After dealing with enough silly comparisons for one day, I just had to post this here and ask myself and everyone else here... "What the hell has happened? It was not supposed to end this way... it stinks like rotten meat..." (another reference if you can get it ;p...). In other words, what has happened to competitive games, specifically shooters... Why do so many people rage quit now than before instead of sticking around and actually trying to learn from their mistakes, why is it better to use easier weapons to get kills with than it is weapons that actually require you to learn how to use it, whether it has trajectory, shot patterns, leading, or anything else involved?... why do people look down at others for being good at something that is obviously not easy to do these days?... Why are broken, cheesy, unskilled, unfun and unsatisfactory playstyles the meta now?... Do you guys feel that the new mentality of gamers today brought by causal shooters such as CoD has ruined an entire generation of Gamers to the point of completely degenerating the term known as skill?... I will continue to love shooters and play them as honorably and skillfully as I know how to, but the truth is these days... it seems to be getting harder and harder for me to enjoy shooters if it feels like my skill is being manipulated to the point where I don't even know if I'm actually doing good or not... I mean to an average gamer, what does "Skill" even mean?... So what does ANY of this have to do with Conclave, heck, even Warframe?... it has EVERYTHING to do with it... there's not one match in Conclave that I do not get into that people either rage quit before the match is over because they're being wrecked by my or any other really good player's vectis, I rarely see ANYONE actually trying to shoot without ADS as the hipfire penalty in this game is so miniscule it may as well not exist, people will complain that something that is completely balanced is overpowered (I'm talking about precision weapons, cause there is indeed things in Conclave which are broken, but they help people easily win without tying so they're NOT overpowered...), and if you retreat for just ONE second to get heath, you're a noob that runs away... I just don't get it... *****RANT OVER***** I was as polite and as respectful as possible, and although many of you will probably tell me to suck it up and just deal with it (and believe me I AM...), I was taught to always speak my mind about matters that bug me, to at least get them off my chest and out there for more people to ponder over. I'd like to know what you guys's thoughts are on the current evolution (or tbh, devolution), of Competitive shooters... TL;DR https://youtu.be/Rc2OvrpzjvM?t=1m16s ^This pretty much sums up how I feel about how I feel about competitive shooters these days... I posted the link rather than show the video here since the movie is R rated (no nudity, just a bit of swearing, a classic moment though) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)kr0mus Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I 100% agree and as far as I can tell the best thing to do is to tear it down and rebuild it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cary2010haha1 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I think the problem is most time we played with players not at the same lvl. And the "skill" have evolve into many different way now days. like WF, you maybe a perfect shooter with gd aim, but a melee player understand how the game mechanism works will give you a hard day. And most gd aim player in WF as I see, they still don't evolve their skills, most of them don;t even think about flank or use any teamwork to solve it. They just copt. back and shoot and copt. back and shoot again. also the energy control, I don't see many of players at here have put any effort into it, and they just believe energy in WF is much enough for every player on the field to spam powers as they want. And they keep thinking about "aim" is the only skill they need, Jesus they should get into the unit or at least try war games in real live, only air rifle in Olympic will said aim is everything as no target is moving in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalahssalyst Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) One point: Why are broken, cheesy, unskilled, unfun and unsatisfactory playstyles the meta now? Dont talk about the meta because now meta things are Boltor prime, Vectis/ Prime Ash/Valkyr, you cant talk for another players what is fun, and what is skilled or unsatisfactory... Edited July 29, 2015 by Grimlock- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)kr0mus Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 One point: Why are broken, cheesy, unskilled, unfun and unsatisfactory playstyles the meta now? Dont talk about the meta, because you cant talk for another players what is fun, and what is skilled or unsatisfactory... Actually in most cases skillfulness is determined by on lookers rather than participants so in a way he does get to state his opinion of what requires skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yezzik Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 We'll always have skiing and Paris, Belmont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3DBelmont456 Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Idk man, maybe I feel this way because back in the day all you COULD do was aim, there were no real gimmicks like powers and whatnot, it was just you, your rocket launcher and your skill vs everyone else's skill... I guess people get tired and want something new, so developers need to come up with more gimmicks to memorize and more things that just make it easier and easier to win all the while putting less and less effort into getting good at the game in question. It's not that I don't want there to be different play styles such as melee for instance (if I didn't like melee, I wouldn't be playing fighting games, and I grew up in the arcades...), I just wish that the different styles of play actually required effort to be good at instead of being so accessible with no drawbacks (low risk, high reward). If that were the case I'd welcome all playstyles, but I just cannot justify a playstyle that requires you to press just one button to effortlessly kill the other person and call that "skill"... Before a certain "Someone" shoots down my post, defending that all forms of button presses are spam, let me use one analogy we are all familiar with... "Aimbots" Back in my day, something like an "Aimbot" was (and in some games still is) heavily looked down upon. If people found out you were an aimbotter, you were lucky to get invited to any games ever again, or even get into pubs for that matter, no one respected you, your name would be infamous in that community just because you aimbotted, worst case scenario, your account would be permanently banned from that game, but why?... Technically he "WAS" still required to press a button to activate the aimbot, and most aimbots today are so subtle that they barely clip as bad as they used to, all you have to do is aim the reticule at them and the shots look natural so you're still technically aiming, you're still having to click on the Left mouse or whatever you use, to fire the gun... The answer to this question is simple, and that answer is: Aimbot Skill is Artificial, IT'S FAKE, a Counterfeit~!!! in most cases, people using an aimbot are not even that good at said game, they probably just started and wanted a way to pubstomp effortlessly or just impress a pro or two without putting the hard work and dedication required to be good at said game. It's not only completely unfair, but not right either, you are lying to yourself and to others whenever you use said tactics because you are taking the easiest route possible often times for vanity such as recognition or your own audience of followers, if you really are good, you wouldn't stoop so low as to use something like that anyway. By using an aimbot, you are admitting your skill is not good enough to compete with the best... it's Cowardly, it's despicable, and yet today, it's accepted?... Martial Magnetism in Conclave is like a free aimbot, it requires you to put the minimal effort to be able to achieve melee kills... stick relentless assault and explosive demise in, and you have yourself a tactic that can wipe out an entire group if you manage you kill just one person with melee (which is honestly not hard at all). If you have the mobility, and remember that people drop energy when defeated too, then instant killing 4s like overload and avalanche which have a big enough AoE to make it difficult to react to take minimal effort from the player to continually execute and get kills with, there is no satisfaction, no real skill involved other than timing it for maximum possible gain... The same thing cannot be said with guns, even when using a controller with aim assist turned on, it still requires you to aim, to compensate often with your own movement and speed, reloading leaves you vulnerable to counterattack, you need to often predict where they're going, this is especially true with projectile weapons such as bows or launchers, you have to worry about hitboxes because headshots give the maximum damage, but it's also the hardest to hit... Only by taking all these variables into consideration and making them work together can you ever be the best... Take the vectis, put it in a new player's hand, and they will be lucky to get even one kill with it... but give it to a skilled player and they will probably wipe the floor with the entire squad of people in that game... In conclusion: Anything that requires the most minimal effort to perform well in any game is not skill... it is just instant gratification, it doesn't teach you anything, it doesn't make you better... This is why we look down on cheaters, this is why we hate aimbotters, and this is why we dislike it when people just sink to just using strategies that anyone can do to win, but are not really difficult to accomplish in the first place... I would make a longer list but I fear that would offend a lot of you further than it already has... Edited July 29, 2015 by R3DBelmont456 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-dicht.ThanksFrost- Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I agree with this. If we look at warframe as it is, it is simply not fun. Even if I was a power/melee spammer myself the game lacks substance. The game lacks substance because the most effective tactics are the easiest ones. Im not saying the melee is the ONLY problem, im not even saying the powers are the only problem. There are some imbalances in the guns as well. But by far, it is nowhere near as grand as a problem as the melee and power. Litterally the only rewarding thing about pvp in Warframe is seeing stuff like this because its hilarious And most gd aim player in WF as I see, they still don't evolve their skills, most of them don;t even think about flank or use any teamwork to solve it. They just copt. back and shoot and copt. back and shoot again. If you know anything about shooters 1st or 3rd person. Leaving a fight or backing away is not always a bad thing. In gears of war, the worst thing to do is straight up run into every single fight. With all the movement 1.0 players are able to do, you do not think that they are able to flank? For someone who "played 1.0 since the start" you don't seem to know the skillsets that players accumulated in 1.0. Since movement was a big thing, it's evident that many 1.0 players had to use flank tactics and placing themselves in the proper area was crucial, even more so than actually shooting in some cases. When i play with 1.0ers they flank, they use teamwork, I used to use team work in my games. You are generalizing the entire 1.0 community so this already devalues your entire comment. They are (for the most part) competitive players or at least with the desire to win, what makes you possibly think that they do not use flanks and teamwork. but a melee player understand how the game mechanism works will give you a hard day. Really, mechanics. Ok to your credit, you can't be completely mindless and mash E to kill a player with melee. But what mechanics are we talking about here? You do realize that theres only really one button devoted to melee and that is the E key. Are you trying to tell me, that the mechanics tha revolve around tapping the E key and occasionally running into people at the right time are so in depth that god tier players can only understand them? Please you make me laugh. People who just play 1 hour a day and never play pvp other than for rep can get 3.0 k/d for mashing the E key with certain melee weapons. They're giving you a hard day because they are using an exploit, just like the thorn in destiny just like the pre-patched retro lancer in gears of war 3. There is not mechanics behind melee other than pressing a key and being in the right place (which is universal and very easy to understand) also the energy control, I don't see many of players at here have put any effort into it, and they just believe energy in WF is much enough for every player on the field to spam powers as they want. And they keep thinking about "aim" is the only skill they need, Jesus they should get into the unit or at least try war games in real live, only air rifle in Olympic will said aim is everything as no target is moving in the game. Once again no, because even if people went for energy. Myself and 2 others purging like hell, people still managed to super up. There is too much energy. And then the real live thing. I regret to inform you, this is a video game, not a "real live" war game. Leave that realisim behind you because it just waters down your statement. A game, because by definition warframe is a GAME. Is a scenario that players are apart of, a scenario with a set of RULES. People want fair fights and equality, this is not "real live" where they are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volume Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Hi, sounds like you'd rather be playing Q3A / UT / Warsow / Toxikk / Reflex / QL / CS 1.6, Source, GO / Tribes / CPMA maybe even something like Savage 2 / Natural Selection / TF2 or Doom2 (skulltag, zandronum) I would love to see a true PvP game developed with movement similar to the evolution engine, but most people here have no concept of landing the b2r on dm6 for the first time. /e: I am also probably one of the very few players I've seen actually timing energy powerups. I actually got called an exploit abuser for it once. Because, apparently, knowing game mechanics is abuse. Edited July 29, 2015 by Volume Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalahssalyst Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) Really, mechanics. Ok to your credit, you can't be completely mindless and mash E to kill a player with melee. But what mechanics are we talking about here? You do realize that theres only really one button devoted to melee and that is the E key. Are you trying to tell me, that the mechanics tha revolve around tapping the E key and occasionally running into people at the right time are so in depth that god tier players can only understand them? Please you make me laugh. People who just play 1 hour a day and never play pvp other than for rep can get 3.0 k/d for mashing the E key with certain melee weapons. They're giving you a hard day because they are using an exploit, just like the thorn in destiny just like the pre-patched retro lancer in gears of war 3. There is not mechanics behind melee other than pressing a key and being in the right place (which is universal and very easy to understand) An exploit? Are you really kidding me? With all of that words, i can confirm that you dont ever have touched or played a "sword alone"... And really really you dont know how hard it is... Edited July 30, 2015 by Grimlock- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)kr0mus Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 An exploit? Are you really kidding me? With all of that words, i can confirm that you dont ever have touched or played a "sword alone"... And really really you dont know how hard it is... I have done sword alone and its easy. Flip jumping closes moat gaps and 90% of combos either hit a lot or have a knock down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Grihaly Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonBenj Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Im an older aged player, Warframe was my first PVP/Co-op experience. I started playing Conclave mid update 12, almost exclusively everyday, experiencing the attitudes of PVP was an eye opener. After 2.0 dropped well, the community and playstyles changed vastly, I have nothing further to add besides concuring with R3DBelmont46 and Eureka.seven's posts. Being old and slow, I got my &#! handed to me constantly in 1.0 but i didn't mind that at all, knowing how hard it was to hit a player with Rush and ultra fast melee. I learnt alot from players passively in match conversation as well as during competitive matches. It doesnt take a huge IQ to see how 2.0 has reduced the skill gap for inexeperienced players by power casting, Melee is certainly another leveller. There are players who have sense of fairness, players whom i've never met before and that gives me hope, eg: 3v1 we say one will stay out. In my mind the only solution is a separate PVP gamemode with full mod access and for powers to be nullified, or Dojo duel expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3DBelmont456 Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 Hi, sounds like you'd rather be playing Q3A / UT / Warsow / Toxikk / Reflex / QL / CS 1.6, Source, GO / Tribes / CPMA maybe even something like Savage 2 / Natural Selection / TF2 or Doom2 (skulltag, zandronum) I would love to see a true PvP game developed with movement similar to the evolution engine, but most people here have no concept of landing the b2r on dm6 for the first time. /e: I am also probably one of the very few players I've seen actually timing energy powerups. I actually got called an exploit abuser for it once. Because, apparently, knowing game mechanics is abuse. The irony is I have played or still play every single one of those games you have mentioned, I still know how to strafejump and rocket wall jump, I still know all the secrets of the first DOOM game, and what have you... in fact, I made an account just to be able to play the alpha of the new Unreal Tourney that is being worked on as we speak... it's a lot of fun :3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cary2010haha1 Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) And then the real live thing. I regret to inform you, this is a video game, not a "real live" war game. Leave that realisim behind you because it just waters down your statement. A game, because by definition warframe is a GAME. Is a scenario that players are apart of, a scenario with a set of RULES. People want fair fights and equality, this is not "real live" where they are not. "game" is just a world with different laws of physics & ethics. If you want to go higher in some world wide team shooter video game competition you even need to study the psychological & do physical training in "real" live. With all the movement 1.0 players are able to do, you do not think that they are able to flank? For someone who "played 1.0 since the start" you don't seem to know the skillsets that players accumulated in 1.0. Since movement was a big thing, it's evident that many 1.0 players had to use flank tactics and placing themselves in the proper area was crucial, even more so than actually shooting in some cases. When i play with 1.0ers they flank, they use teamwork, I used to use team work in my games. You are generalizing the entire 1.0 community so this already devalues your entire comment. They are (for the most part) competitive players or at least with the desire to win, what makes you possibly think that they do not use flanks and teamwork. 1.0 is not even have the space for flank, go faster than your opp. and hit them at the side is not "flank", also in 1.0 you can oneshot everyone with OP guns make the only reason to "flank" is lost, we need to flank is because their firepower or armor is high in some direction. And 1.0 can't even block. And I don't feel you really do teamwork well in WF, you K/d don't show it, we have set of rules for Teamwork with my mates: shooters do not shoot at the front, let melee-er sidetracked your enemy, syn-stopper for share the field energy respawn data to team, always have a de-buff clear follow up the melee-er/fvanguard, and more and more. Our main shooter's avg. K/d already go over 8. <-----He can't even win me in 1V1(which only have 4k/d, and I am bad at solo), that's the magic of "teamwork of 4". And you don't have any chance to win it alone. When the team go bigger, you better work harder on the teamwork. Martial Magnetism in Conclave is like a free aimbot, it requires you to put the minimal effort to be able to achieve melee kills... stick relentless assault and explosive demise in, and you have yourself a tactic that can wipe out an entire group if you manage you kill just one person with melee (which is honestly not hard at all). If you have the mobility, and remember that people drop energy when defeated too, then instant killing 4s like overload and avalanche which have a big enough AoE to make it difficult to react to take minimal effort from the player to continually execute and get kills with, there is no satisfaction, no real skill involved other than timing it for maximum possible gain... you compare WF melee with other games but you for get a very important fact make it totally different---WF's melee have stance nail your feet on the ground when you use melee attack, will it be ok if Q3/gear of war chainsaw stop your movement speed to 0 and can't jump even you swing to air? MM is not important for it's aim ability , but it keep a melee-er can moving even when they were swing it. And the ulta, control the map and they can't even present in the map. /e: I am also probably one of the very few players I've seen actually timing energy powerups. I actually got called an exploit abuser for it once. Because, apparently, knowing game mechanics is abuse. haha V,V it's okay, Skill are in every specialty. Edited July 30, 2015 by cary2010haha1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalahssalyst Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 /e: I am also probably one of the very few players I've seen actually timing energy powerups. I actually got called an exploit abuser for it once. Because, apparently, knowing game mechanics is abuse. Hahaha yes it happends... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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