[Spoilers For Natah Within] A Consideration On The Old War - It's Conclusion And The Tenno Vs. Sentients

[Morec0]

Talkin' with my buddy NikodemosTheMan after he completed Natah, and the idea sprung to mind.

 

I'm not going to go into depth on the quest's revelations, so if you want to understand it head here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/499371-heavy-spoilers-the-natah-quest-revelation-now-with-pictures/

 

from this point on:

 

 

So, here's how I see the Old War went down and ended - in a sort of summarized way:

 

We know from the Excalibur Codex there was a time when the Sentients WERE winning. Before the Tenno were deployed.

 

But then the Tenno were unleashed and ended up beating them - likely because of their Void powers that, while it would seem the Sentients were able to overcome sheer death from, still left them barren, unable to reproduce. So, a Sentient could be hacked apart by the Tenno, murdered, but it could never regrow as we saw the one in the Crewman Synth regrow.

 

But Natah changes this slightly, the revelation that the Lotus was a Sentient named Natah in her past opens up new questions, and this is where the bulk of my theory beings.

 

Burning Lotus (don't have a real name for it yet, but you know what I mean based on that description), says that they let them "destory me". I think that means when the Tenno were unleashed the Sentients were quick to realize "oh S#&$, these guys can completely defeat us", and so they changed their tactics - went for subversion.

 

Enter "the Lotus" - "our friend and guide" even back then. She inserted herself among the Tenno, gained their frust at the cost of so many Sentients - her parentage included.

 

And then when the war was all but won, when the Tenno have taken the fight all the way to Tau and defeated the Sentients there... she turned them on the Orokin. They returned "gleaming and victorious" with the "defeat" of the Sentients "complete".

 

"But they weren't stoic. They were poised" - Stalker Codex

 

The Empire fell that day, just as was planned. Everything had been leading up to this, but Natah/Lotus, barren because of her travel to Origin, unable to give life herself, couldn't bring herself to finish the final sequence - the death of the Tenno. She went so far as to put them to sleep, but never finished that final step.

 

She chose the Tenno over her own people. Spared us because she wanted children of her own - she rejected her identity, killed Natah, and took up the mantle of Lotus.

 

---

 

Thoughts?

[S.T.M.P.D]

One.

I think that the Sentients were originally rampant Cephalons, and that Lotus was one, so she had to grow a proper human body, but it couldn't store all of her, so she has to use that headdress. I think Teshin and Baro might be something similar - friendly Cephalons taking human form, using the headdresses to store their extra brainpower. Hell, maybe that's what all the Orokin were like, a fusion of organic and - digital? What exactly is a Cephalon made out of, anyway?

[Morec0]

One.

I think that the Sentients were originally rampant Cephalons, and that Lotus was one, so she had to grow a proper human body, but it couldn't store all of her, so she has to use that headdress. I think Teshin and Baro might be something similar - friendly Cephalons taking human form, using the headdresses to store their extra brainpower. Hell, maybe that's what all the Orokin were like, a fusion of organic and - digital? What exactly is a Cephalon made out of, anyway?

 

I don't think they were "Cephalons" - creations of the Orokin for sure, but that thing in the Crewman Codex didn't seem very Cephalon-like. And we can pretty much confirm that was a very early, unevolved form of the Sentients based on all the other bits of information we have. I too thought the Sentients were Cephalons at a time, but that seems to have been debunked.

 

They're something organic - a living machine of some kind. Cephalons just seem to be digital/mechanical.

 

As for Teshin and Baro... They seem way too human. We've never had any indication of the Cephalons being able to take a form THAT human.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

I still don't see how an 'organic' machine-thing could even reproduce in the first place. And like, how literal is it? Like did Natah's dad bang another Sentient? Why does travelling the gap (or whatever it's called) leave them barren? Is her flesh real?

[(PSN)ELECTROxShOcKZz]

I feel this is very good speculation and I'm on board with the idea.

[Morec0]

I still don't see how an 'organic' machine-thing could even reproduce in the first place. And like, how literal is it? Like did Natah's dad bang another Sentient? Why does travelling the gap (or whatever it's called) leave them barren? Is her flesh real?

 

Starfish. Basically, as I see it, the Orokin did something they'd never done before: instead of cloning and changing what had already existed (like we do today with selective breeding of certain animals) they had created something.

 

Created something entirely new. A brand new form of life, born from scratch, specifically designed for the task of building the rail to save Origin from it's decay - whatever that "dying" was.

 

Given what we're shown in the Crewman Synth, they reproduce asexually. But even after the grew out of the Void's ability to kill them, exposure to it stopped them from being able to do so. Let them Barren. As Lotus said "it was the one flaw we could no overcome". No longer could a bit of them be cut off and grow into something new. It would simply fall off, a dead and useless limb.

 

This would be kinda supported by the fact that despite Burning Lotus having a male voice it still talks about its womb - a female-only trait. A race that reproduced in singular instances, without the aid of another, might see themselves as being just that sort of thing. A womb, a belly of life.

 

As for why Lotus looks like she does, hell if I now. Why does Burning Lotus look like she does? Was it all part of the ruse? We need more information, and more Sentient character to truly come to understand.

 

I feel this is very good speculation and I'm on board with the idea.

 

\[+]/

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

-snip-

Also, why are they humanoid, but the trailer Sentients are, well, not at all humanoid?

[Morec0]

Also, why are they humanoid, but the trailer Sentients are, well, not at all humanoid?

 

Like I said: "why does she look like she does? hell if i know".

 

Best I can imagine is that it was part of the deception - make Natah (and the others, if there were any) look like someone the Tenno could trust, a human, to help with getting into their little world and turning them on the Orokin.

 

Could be they're shapeshifters. More information is needed. At the moment we don't know why, only that it is.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

Like I said: "why does she look like she does? hell if i know".

 

Best I can imagine is that it was part of the deception - make Natah (and the others, if there were any) look like someone the Tenno could trust, a human, to help with getting into their little world and turning them on the Orokin.

 

Could be they're shapeshifters. More information is needed. At the moment we don't know why, only that it is.

Somebody else said something about being an infiltration unit, or a Terminator. Specifically, like the Sam Worthington one in Salvation, dude thought he was human, but uh, wasn't.

 

I just read the Crewman lore... Were the Sentients created from starfish? Or were starfish used as the idea of them?

[Samoth95]

I believe the Burning Lotus takes that form in an attempt to directly send a message to Natah. It even says something along those lines - we can see the video feeds of Lotus/Teshin in missions, so it's entirely possible that they can see eachother. Which means they both saw the Burning Lotus, which is why he took that form. In taking a form akin to Natah, he's trying to directly communicate with her. I mean, every time he speaks it is DIRECTLY to Natah. Not one word is spoken to anyone else, not even Regor.

[Morec0]

I believe the Burning Lotus takes that form in an attempt to directly send a message to Natah. It even says something along those lines - we can see the video feeds of Lotus/Teshin in missions, so it's entirely possible that they can see eachother. Which means they both saw the Burning Lotus, which is why he took that form. In taking a form akin to Natah, he's trying to directly communicate with her. I mean, every time he speaks it is DIRECTLY to Natah. Not one word is spoken to anyone else, not even Regor.

 

Yeah, I recall that, it's a good basis. Can't really remember what it said, though, but that's a good way to see it. I do think a lot of mental links are going on in Warframe - between Lotus and us at least - but I think you're right on the money here.

[Nikodemos]

Somebody else said something about being an infiltration unit, or a Terminator. Specifically, like the Sam Worthington one in Salvation, dude thought he was human, but uh, wasn't.

 

I just read the Crewman lore... Were the Sentients created from starfish? Or were starfish used as the idea of them?

The starfish is for all intents and purposes the first Sentient, but at the moment described in the Crewman synthesis. It evolved and adapted to better suit its surroundings, and at some time later it reached a point where it developed sentient, had far surpassed its original intent, and then had become a Sentient.

 

I believe the Burning Lotus takes that form in an attempt to directly send a message to Natah. It even says something along those lines - we can see the video feeds of Lotus/Teshin in missions, so it's entirely possible that they can see eachother. Which means they both saw the Burning Lotus, which is why he took that form. In taking a form akin to Natah, he's trying to directly communicate with her. I mean, every time he speaks it is DIRECTLY to Natah. Not one word is spoken to anyone else, not even Regor.

"Natah who have you become? Does this form remind you of what you once were?"

 

By shape Natah is exactly identical to the Burning Lotus, but different texture to so speak. I don't really think him(it?) took that form specifically for Natah - it simply is what he is right now.

 

Now, in another topic, I'm left wondering. Do the Tenno have any true control over themselves? If what Morec0 is saying is true - that the Lotus infiltrated the Tenno to eventually turn them against the Orokin and eventually eradicate them, it makes us nothing more than pawns to be used by other people. Even now, all we do is done with the guidance and direction of the Lotus, she points us to a location and we go there like sheep.

 

Personally, I always wanted the Tenno to be solely responsible for turning on the Orokin. They realized that in order to maintain the balance they swore to uphold, they had to eradicate the monstrosity that started all this, and then eradicate themselves from the system in a true selfless sacrifice.

[Morec0]

 

Now, in another topic, I'm left wondering. Do the Tenno have any true control over themselves? If what Morec0 is saying is true - that the Lotus infiltrated the Tenno to eventually turn them against the Orokin and eventually eradicate them, it makes us nothing more than pawns to be used by other people. Even now, all we do is done with the guidance and direction of the Lotus, she points us to a location and we go there like sheep.

 

Personally, I always wanted the Tenno to be solely responsible for turning on the Orokin. They realized that in order to maintain the balance they swore to uphold, they had to eradicate the monstrosity that started all this, and then eradicate themselves from the system in a true selfless sacrifice.

 

 

I too wanted the Tenno to have a REAL hand in killing the Orokin. For it to have been a pure desire of them... It might still be that the Sentients simply cultivated the seeds of animosity already in them, but..

 

As for the rest, I can't possibly come up with as a satisfying answer. The Tenno have the capacity to act on their own, that much is certain, we've seen it demonstrated. They can think for themselves, choose differing paths... But ultimately? I don't know. I really don't.

 

All in all, if Lotus is mother than we ARE her children. And, like children, we can do some things on our own but for others we need a helping hand, a kind voice, a guide.

 

DE, I beg of you: one UNDENIABLY Tenno NPC that we can interact with on friendly terms. Familiar Warframe - Ash, Loki, Excalibur - and all. That's all I want. Please. Just, please.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

 

-snip-

From what I understand, the Tenno were sent to the Void at a young age, then experimented on for years, until the frames were built for them. But from childhood to weapons, with experimentation in between, I doubt Tenno learned to think for themselves too much, all that is known is war and being a lab rat.

 

If you were trapped in a lab, being experimented on throughout your childhood, into adulthood, and then used to kill thousands (millions? not sure how many Sentients there were) and you were seen as nothing more than a tool. Then a mother-figure comes along, cares for you, loves you, would you think 'screw you, I do what I want' or 'you've shown more compassion in 10 seconds than the Orokin did in X years.' You'd probably listen, right? But you're choosing to.

 

TL;DR Tenno were never given free will, so it's a foreign idea.

[-InV-igo95862]

Who controlled Chroma?

 

If sentients are burried in the tombs, what was that scull we found in Stolen Dreams?

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

 

 

All in all, if Lotus is mother than we ARE her children. 

*Thor voice* We're adopted. xD

[oinkah]

So the Sentients technically won the Old War.

It makes sense that they have managed to manipulate the Tenno via Lotus. After all, taking over enemy weapons is their M.O. 

 

Did Sentients only pretend to lose to the Tenno? Guess they chose to lock themselves in the tomb and wait it out. But Lotus glitched and we have what we have.

 

Also, how did the Stalker manage to escape Natah's control? And why is he blaming us and not Lotus?

[Coryphaus]

I still need a timeline as to when and how Natah infiltrated the Orokin or controlled the Tenno.

 

This pretty much means that the Sentients were not defeated: the Tenno and the Orokin were.

 

Going by Teshin's words, who seems familiar with her and yet not knowing her completely, saying the following:

 

""We were led astray. We forgot the Conclave, so when that new evil came, we were not prepared. This is how we failed the Orokin. You went into stasis, but not me. I searched the long path for redemption, for the kind of balance only The Conclave can create. Now I return, only to find the Tenno still herded like livestock. Horrors from beyond the Outer Terminus are coming. You must prepare. You must accept The Conclave. Let it be your teacher and I its humble guide. For true balance can only be found in the face of the ultimate enemy. Yourself.""

 

"The Lotus seduced the Tenno. Led them on a complacent path like oxen. I failed the Orokin but I will preserve their legacy. The Tenno. Now is the time for action. Cast off your harness and become a pupil of The Conclave. Through trial combat, I will prepare you for the evils beyond the Outer Terminus. A warrior only grows if they face the ultimate enemy. Themselves."

 

I wonder if the Lotus and perhaps other Sentients were sent to infiltrate the Orokin long before the main Sentient forces themselves made an appearance.

 

If so, this begs the question of whether the Sentients knew of the Tenno before that war and foresaw their eventual defeat, thereby necessitating faking a complete defeat in order to complete a ruse that would allow them to use the Tenno themselves to destroy the Orokin, before eliminating all the Tenno via Natah.

 

I haven't managed to play the mission yet because the damned Occulyst never appears so I can't have a look what's inside the missions, e.g. where the orokin ship was found, where the tomb was and what was inside it.

[Coryphaus]

So the Sentients technically won the Old War.

It makes sense that they have managed to manipulate the Tenno via Lotus. After all, taking over enemy weapons is their M.O. 

 

Did Sentients only pretend to lose to the Tenno? Guess they chose to lock themselves in the tomb and wait it out. But Lotus glitched and we have what we have.

 

Also, how did the Stalker manage to escape Natah's control? And why is he blaming us and not Lotus?

 

There seem to be indications that they awakened the Grineer as well, but we'll have to await completion from our explorers and lorists charting out the oddities.

[Coryphaus]

I too wanted the Tenno to have a REAL hand in killing the Orokin. For it to have been a pure desire of them... It might still be that the Sentients simply cultivated the seeds of animosity already in them, but..

 

As for the rest, I can't possibly come up with as a satisfying answer. The Tenno have the capacity to act on their own, that much is certain, we've seen it demonstrated. They can think for themselves, choose differing paths... But ultimately? I don't know. I really don't.

 

All in all, if Lotus is mother than we ARE her children. And, like children, we can do some things on our own but for others we need a helping hand, a kind voice, a guide.

 

DE, I beg of you: one UNDENIABLY Tenno NPC that we can interact with on friendly terms. Familiar Warframe - Ash, Loki, Excalibur - and all. That's all I want. Please. Just, please.

 

If DE gives you that Tenno, then they are demonstrating that Tenno have free will and agency. What if the Tenno don't?

 

What if by now, they are 80 year old autistic battle savants who are utterly and completely lost without a guiding figure?

Edited August 1, 2015 by Coryphaus

[Morec0]

So the Sentients technically won the Old War.

It makes sense that they have managed to manipulate the Tenno via Lotus. After all, taking over enemy weapons is their M.O. 

 

Did Sentients only pretend to lose to the Tenno? Guess they chose to lock themselves in the tomb and wait it out. But Lotus glitched and we have what we have.

 

Also, how did the Stalker manage to escape Natah's control? And why is he blaming us and not Lotus?

 

Stalker was never a Tenno, rather he was a low Guardian.

 

And yes, the Sentients seemingly pretended to lose - even actually sacrificing their own to make the charde truly believable.

 

 

Who controlled Chroma?

 

If sentients are burried in the tombs, what was that scull we found in Stolen Dreams?

 

There are likely many still in Tau, and if they've started to be awakened by the Grineer and others who dig too deeply than they. So either we may have them finding a way back with the likes of Chroma in-tow or 

 

The derelict may yet have been another tomb - another prison - a place where the defeated and truly-killed Sentients were sent for study.

 

 

There seem to be indications that they awakened the Grineer as well, but we'll have to await completion from our explorers and lorists charting out the oddities.

 

Well the oddities have nothing to do with the Sentients from what I've seen, it's all gloriously about the Twin Queens.

If DE gives you that Tenno, then they are demonstrating that Tenno have free will and agency. What if the Tenno don't?

 

What if by now, they are 80 year old autistic battle savants who are utterly and completely lost without a guiding figure?

 

But we know we have some free will and agency. Battle pay, Grustrag attacks, events like Gradivus, all of that determines we have the capacity to choose our own path.