Make The Game Harder Without Impacting Players Playing 'properly': Cover Ignoring Attacks

[MJ12]

The one good thing about Scorpions, sort of, is that they have an attack that goes through cover.

 

I am of the opinion, given every preview material available of this game, that the developers have wanted to minimize player use of cover. The lack of a cover system (and the mentions that a cover system won't be coming in the FAQs), the emphasis on agile movement, and the dodge moves available imply that you should be out... well, not in the open, but not actively taped to a wall. Using terrain to block line of sight instead of hiding behind it, if you get my drift.

 

Now, the problem here is that the enemies which seek to emphasize this are all completely wrong. They stunlock, they encourage cover cheesing, they are frustrating messes.

 

I suggest that Corpus and Grineer get some common enemies with actual cover ignoring attacks. For example, a Corpus Phase Gunner who has infinite puncture on their slow-firing sniper rifle and gains bonus damage from cover. As long as you keep moving out of cover he's largely harmless. He fires maybe every 5 seconds and does relatively low damage.

 

If you hide behind something you die very fast. This encourages getting out of cover, where unless you use your abilities and dodge, you die pretty damn quickly. The Corpus also might get, I don't know, teleporting grenades that can teleport in on your position if you stay in roughly the same area for more than a few seconds.

 

Grineer could get similar railgun sniper rifles, airburst incendiary grenades (so not only do they ignore cover, they deny that piece of cover for prolonged periods), and Grineer Commanders could, instead of having Switch Teleport, could buff nearby Grineer with Puncture, thus making it so that they become a high-priority target because nobody can hide as long as a Grineer Commander is enhancing his troops with AP ammunition.

 

I strongly suspect if changes like this were implemented you would instantly see a lot of people going 'this game is too easy' completely reversing their statements. Furthermore, those people who are having fun with the current challenge level because they move around a lot and use melee will be largely unaffected. This will even the difficulty between cover-users and melee-users, thus making it easier to actually judge what the difficulty is and where it should be.

[Worira]

Hmm. I agree in theory, but in practice I suspect the puncture/railgun mechanic would result in snipers ganking you from 2 rooms away. Maybe if they could only punch through one object, and you had to be within a certain distance of that object to be hit?

[MJ12]

Hmm. I agree in theory, but in practice I suspect the puncture/railgun mechanic would result in snipers ganking you from 2 rooms away. Maybe if they could only punch through one object, and you had to be within a certain distance of that object to be hit?

 

Well sure, but I figure it'd at least be better than being stunlocked with nothing to do.

 

What I figure the Phase Sniper would do is fire an instant hit beam, but if it hits cover, when it comes out the other side, it becomes a relatively slow-moving, very high-damage projectile and each subsequent object would add to its damage. So basically, if your &#! is taped to cover or close to it, you get smacked for a ton of damage. If you're far away from it, you dodge the attack, no harm, no foul.

 

Enemies would obviously need to have some sort of activation radii and LoS bugs fixed for this to work, that is correct. You'd probably also want to limit the puncture mechanics somehow, but if it was just 'one object', you'd probably end up with people just hiding behind a box that's behind a railing instead.

 

The idea is to discourage cover use (because excessive cover usage is what is making the game easy IME), not limit the amount of available cover.

[Worira]

You have addressed my primary concern and I now agree wholeheartedly.

[LordOfTzeentch]

I got a idea, not sure if it's good or not.

 

A special Grineer type could have something like a Rhino stomp attack, only it's a medium range line of sight attack beam with penetration that'll lift you into the air, of course in this state you'll still be able to fire, just no run. When she hoists you into the air, there will be a visible line of energy linking her to you. If you hit her, or one of your team-mates hit her, you'll be dropped down.

 

It's name could Grineer telekinatette (based of Basilica model).

Edited May 26, 2013 by LordOfTzeentch

[Kyte]

This sounds like something I'd play the hell out of.

 

 

I got a idea, not sure if it's good or not.

 

A special Grineer type could have something like a Rhino stomp attack, only it's a medium range line of sight attack beam with penetration that'll lift you into the air, of course in this state you'll still be able to fire, just no run. When he hoists you into the air, there will be a visible line of energy linking him to you. If you hit him, or one of your team-mates hit hims, you'll be dropped down.

 

It's name could Grineer telekinatette (based of Basilica model).

Give it a slow/flashy windup animation and it might work out. Getting stuck immobile sucks but giving the chance to kill it while you're in the air might even things out.

That said, getting stuck is death for lighter frames so it might need a bit of tweaking. Maybe it needs to "latch on", so slower, tankier classes are more likely to get snagged than the speedier classes.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Kyte

[LordOfTzeentch]

This sounds like something I'd play the hell out of.

 

 

Give it a slow/flashy windup animation and it might work out. Getting stuck immobile sucks but giving the chance to kill it while you're in the air might even things out.

I'd imagine before it does to attack it sticks it's hand out like this

While lifting up it's knee to do a stomp like the Rhino for a second or two before it sends out the beam.

 

 

That said, getting stuck is death for lighter frames so it might need a bit of tweaking. Maybe it needs to "latch on", so slower, tankier classes are more likely to get snagged than the speedier classes.

So it' should be less "laser" and more "moving snake"?

Edited May 26, 2013 by LordOfTzeentch

[Kyte]

Lasers are more of a Corpus thing anyways.

[LordOfTzeentch]

Lasers are more of a Corpus thing anyways.

Less of a laser, more of a energy whip thing....

[Xylia]

So uh.....

 

You want to punish players for playing intelligently?

 

Cover exists... well because its Cover.

 

Ducking in behind cover is kinda what you are supposed to do when taking fire.

 

You can't infinitely hide behind cover, or the enemy will flank you and then you're probably going to die when you get surrounded.

 

Having mobs that go through cover (Railgun MOAs are already very freaking annoying that you can't do anything from being stunned by these stupid things every 5 seconds) is just plain annoying.

 

And besides, they make no sense.

 

Scorpions? Just how do you throw a rope through a wall or a crate? I'd love to know just how that is physically possible. Same goes with Railgun Moas. Okay, so you can shoot through a grate, or a crate with a Railgun... but what about a solid metal wall? How do you even AIM at someone through a wall with a pinpoint weapon like a Railgun?

[LordOfTzeentch]

So uh.....

 

You want to punish players for playing intelligently?

 

Cover exists... well because its Cover.

 

Ducking in behind cover is kinda what you are supposed to do when taking fire.

 

You can't infinitely hide behind cover, or the enemy will flank you and then you're probably going to die when you get surrounded.

 

Having mobs that go through cover (Railgun MOAs are already very freaking annoying that you can't do anything from being stunned by these stupid things every 5 seconds) is just plain annoying.

 

And besides, they make no sense.

 

Scorpions? Just how do you throw a rope through a wall or a crate? I'd love to know just how that is physically possible. Same goes with Railgun Moas. Okay, so you can shoot through a grate, or a crate with a Railgun... but what about a solid metal wall? How do you even AIM at someone through a wall with a pinpoint weapon like a Railgun?

Because this isn't a cover shooter?

Look at the trailer to see how you should play, this is Free-run mc-space-ninja, not Gears of Hide Behind Cover.

Railgun Moas' are fairly easy if you stay constantly mobile like how you're supposed to.

And enemies flanking is so damn stupid, they rarely advance, and never in enough numbers to force you to leave your cover.

As for dealing with enemies firing, the dodge button is there for a reason, the enemies have terrible aim.....

Edited May 26, 2013 by LordOfTzeentch

[Xylia]

Because this isn't a cover shooter?

Look at the trailer to see how you should play, this is Free-run mc-space-ninja, not Gears of Hide Behind Cover.

Railgun Moas' are fairly easy if you stay constantly mobile like how you're supposed to.

And enemies flanking is so damn stupid, they rarely advance, and never in enough numbers to force you to leave your cover.

 

Sometimes cover is necessary when you've got 20+ Grineer/Corpus Pew-Pewing and your shields are dropping like crazy?

 

Kinda hard to go charging in like a ninja when your shields are dropping like a rock.

 

And I've had enemies flank me when I needed some shields, lol. Don't say they don't, because they do.

 

This game loves to throw mega-hordes of mobs at you and sometimes you just can't handle it all.

 

I'm not asking for Mass Effect-style gameplay, but Cover does exist in this game, and it is a viable tactic for obvious reasons, and it should stay that way. Adding mobs that makes cover impossible is only going to force everybody to go Rhino so they can regen their shields reliably.

[KageNoShini]

If the gun were to phase thru i would like it to act like the auger from resistance, where it would stick in the wall for like half a second then go through, and gains more damage per wall.

[MJ12]

So uh.....

 

You want to punish players for playing intelligently?

 

No, I want to punish players for playing in a fashion the game isn't intended to encourage, i.e. 'Gears of Warframe'. You should be playing [PROTOTYPE] Revengeance: Ninja of Gaiden, not Gears of Medal of Honor.

 

 

Cover exists... well because its Cover.

 

Ducking in behind cover is kinda what you are supposed to do when taking fire.

 

 

In a tactical shooter. This is a game where you're a super-human space ninja who can deflect bullets by swinging a hammer the size of a motorbike around like it weighed nothing. This should be about as far as being a tactical shooter as possible. Less Gears of War, more Unreal Championship 2. Here's something interesting about arena shooters, which is where DE really made its name from:

 

They discouraged cover to a massive degree. This is actually really important. There were tons of weapons which made cover almost as suicidal as standing out in the open and not moving. That's what they should go back to, their arena shooter roots.

 

 

 You can't infinitely hide behind cover, or the enemy will flank you and then you're probably going to die when you get surrounded.

 

Nope. I intentionally play in a style which minimizes cover use (I have powers to recharge my shields in combat) and not only is the game much more challenging it's way more fun, because it allows more use of melee and stuff.

 

 

Having mobs that go through cover (Railgun MOAs are already very freaking annoying that you can't do anything from being stunned by these stupid things every 5 seconds) is just plain annoying.

 

Yes, stunlock is bad. But railgun moas shooting through cover isn't a problem, it's their stagger. Mobs that go through cover existing would make cover shooting harder, which is the exact point. They make the game harder in a non-annoying fashion but don't affect people who play the game as intended, i.e. a fast paced shooter. You claim that the result will be 'everyone plays Rhino' instead of 'everyone uses powers more often and the difficulty curve can be balanced because the game isn't either 'play a cover shooter or bust' with melee largely being either for Infested or a joke'.

 

Because the game had a short period of time where it was basically a cover shooter due to enemy lethality being uptuned to lol what levels. It was about as fun as watching paint dry at that point. People want the game to be harder and every one of their suggestions is generally trying to screw people who don't play cover shooters.

 

You should be dodging, not hiding.

Edited May 26, 2013 by MJ12

[Whackhat]

That OP is clearly against stealth play. I disagree with the need to move remove one's self from cover. Cover is necessary for things like defense missions or swarms of ranged mobs. Also, no cover + constant movement = no sniping. This would in theory be a good idea if everyone used melee weapons and assault rifles/machine guns as primary weapons, but it will kill so many mechanics and weapons. overall, -1.

[MJ12]

That OP is clearly against stealth play. I disagree with the need to move remove one's self from cover. Cover is necessary for things like defense missions or swarms of ranged mobs. Also, no cover + constant movement = no sniping. This would in theory be a good idea if everyone used melee weapons and assault rifles/machine guns as primary weapons, but it will kill so many mechanics and weapons. overall, -1.

 

Stealth play? Enemies can't shoot you if they aren't aware of you, thus this doesn't break stealth play. Cover has never been necessary for defense missions or swarms of ranged mobs for all but the most underpowered Warframes. Making Electric Shield and Snowglobe nullify puncture would give basically all Warframes a method to nullify incoming ranged damage to a very large degree.

 

And sniping? You can snipe from the open. You're still 100% accurate with Latrons and Snipetrons while moving. Frankly, videogame 'sniping' (i.e. camping) is also something that's totally unsuited for Warframe. Whereas this set of changes would make real sniping (fire a few shots and change your position) viable.

 

The only mechanics it'd kill are overexaggerated lethality which makes melee nonviable for Warframes outside of Ash/Loki, and bad mechanics like cover cheesing in a fast-paced game. Cover cheesing which, notably, ruins the difficulty for everyone who wants a fast-paced game because you get cut down out of cover in half a second flat due to their insistence on Gears of Warframe.

[Kyte]

None of MJ12's ideas would be a problem if the enemy hasn't detected you yet? Cover would still block Line of Sight, after all.

[Jamesbiff]

Hard and frustrating are two separate things.

 

Hard enemies give me a sense of accomplishment in defeating them. Frustrating enemies ruin the fun aspect. This is something most communities struggle with.

 

Good game design should not have to resort to creating enemies that are frustrating to interact with in an endeavour to make the game 'hard'. This is why people hate the roller balls. It has nothing to do with their difficulty to kill or wanting to make the game easier. Its because they are cheap and frustrating. The railgun moa barely escapes this same branding because its so damned easy to kill, the scorpion too.

 

Difficulty for difficulties sake is not good design. Unless the difficulty can be ramped up with smart enemies you shouldnt attempt to. No one likes cheap, frustrating to kill AI and they never have done.

 

PS: not liking an enemy isnt the same as wanting the experience to be easier. There are a plethora of devastatingly hard enemies in video game history that are a load of fun to fight against, that do not resort to cheap frustrating tactics. That is difficulty done right.

[Xylia]

RE:MJ12:

 

@"Use Powers More": We have this WONDERFUL thing called "ENERGY". Things like Slash Dash and Rhino Charge are nice, but they won't let you regen shields when you're in a room with bullets flying everywhere.

 

Iron Skin might, but that's 50 energy. 3 uses of that and you're out (esp since I STILL haven't seen a Flow mod).

 

#3 and #4 abilities use way too much Energy to really be useful in the means that you're talking about.

 

So basically, you want us to use powers for survival... but you can only use them two to three times then you're out, and only a few Warframes even get enough survival to Regen their shields? I'm not sure what you're on, but how much do you actually play the game? I find myself quite often encountering 20+ mobs in a large room. No Cover? Are you kidding me? Just how exactly are you supposed to survive with 20+ mobs constantly machinegunning you without taking cover now and then to let your shields regenerate?

 

And I doubt anybody is trying to turn this into Gears of War or Medal of Honor or Mass Effect, but ducking in behind some large object is kinda what you do in ANY game that features guns and enemies using guns. This has been true since NES days and it will continue to be true in nearly any other game like this.

 

You do it in games like Fallout.

Heck, I've done it in Skyrim when you encounter lots of archers or mages. What do you do? You duck in behind some large object for a few to get the right spells/weapons ready to deal with the situation.

Quake/Doom-type games? Yup. When you're facing enemies with guns, using the environment is the smartest way to go about it.

 

It is just how it is done.

 

You want people "Using Powers"  for survival? Then you're going to have to make some ability/energy tweaks then, because without multiple Energy Siphons, you're just not gonna get that done.

[Argoms]

Changing enemies to be much more precise, but have very bad tracking speeds could also encourage getting out of cover. Poking your head out when they know where you are will result in getting hit, but they can't follow you quickly enough if you run everywhere.

[Xylia]

Changing enemies to be much more precise, but have very bad tracking speeds could also encourage getting out of cover. Poking your head out when they know where you are will result in getting hit, but they can't follow you quickly enough if you run everywhere.

 

Or, you could make enemies get into cover better.

 

Right now, I can kill anybody with the glaive who's taking cover because they're STILL exposed. That's saying something, because the Glaive is not exactly the best sniper weapon around. I've even killed someone taking cover with a Bronco before, too.

 

Poor cover AI allows me to stay in cover and kill everybody in the room if I so wished. BUT, if mobs took better cover... then I'd be forced to leave my own cover to kill them.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Xylia

[Kyte]

The "not perfectly in cover" thing is probably in purpose. For one, it's not an AI thing. For another, it provides an opportunity for snipers to kill them off without waiting for them to pop off cover, ie. avoid cover shooter gameplay.

[MJ12]

RE:MJ12:

 

@"Use Powers More": We have this WONDERFUL thing called "ENERGY". Things like Slash Dash and Rhino Charge are nice, but they won't let you regen shields when you're in a room with bullets flying everywhere.

 

So basically, you want us to use powers for survival... but you can only use them two to three times then you're out, and only a few Warframes even get enough survival to Regen their shields? I'm not sure what you're on, but how much do you actually play the game? I find myself quite often encountering 20+ mobs in a large room. No Cover? Are you kidding me? Just how exactly are you supposed to survive with 20+ mobs constantly machinegunning you without taking cover now and then to let your shields regenerate?

 

I don't know, I do it basically all the time. Notice that all these enemies are supposed to require you to stay near cover for prolonged periods and require you to not fully break contact to deal damage, i.e. if you're doing hit and runs to regenerate shields you're fine, if you're using powers it's fine, and I'm more than happy to accept a power rework.

 

But hey, don't people want the game to be more difficult? What would make the game more difficult but having to extremely tightly manage your use of hiding behind impenetrable objects because they aren't actually impenetrable and you can get shot right through them? Meanwhile, everyone who is actually doing acrobatics and acting like a ninja instead of playing Gears of Warframe will be basically completely unaffected.

 

And I doubt anybody is trying to turn this into Gears of War or Medal of Honor or Mass Effect, but ducking in behind some large object is kinda what you do in ANY game that features guns and enemies using guns. This has been true since NES days and it will continue to be true in nearly any other game like this.

 

You do it in games like Fallout.

Heck, I've done it in Skyrim when you encounter lots of archers or mages. What do you do? You duck in behind some large object for a few to get the right spells/weapons ready to deal with the situation.

Quake/Doom-type games? Yup. When you're facing enemies with guns, using the environment is the smartest way to go about it.

 

It is just how it is done.

 

Quake/Doom-type games? Wherein enemies and other players in MP (this is important) are often given inaccurate splash damage attacks that make hiding in cover deadlier than running out in the open and dodging fire? Fallout, where 'cover' is largely something neither party uses, compared to concealment?

 

I don't think you understand the difference between 'cover' (hide behind a box to get hit less) and concealment (hide behind a wall and not get seen). One of these I don't mind because it doesn't impact gameplay for everyone else. The other I do mind because it means enemy lethality is jacked up to the point where melee becomes increasingly worthless.

 

You want people "Using Powers"  for survival? Then you're going to have to make some ability/energy tweaks then, because without multiple Energy Siphons, you're just not gonna get that done.

 

Congrats. You've figured out other systems are broken as well, not just how cover works in a game which should encourage minimal use of it. I've been in favor of completely fixing the energy system for the longest time. Cover is a thing you can't eliminate, but you can minimize. It should be something you use maybe 5% of the time in an average mission for a reasonably skilled player.

[Kerrus]

So uh.....

 

You want to punish players for playing intelligently?

 

Cover exists... well because its Cover.

 

Ducking in behind cover is kinda what you are supposed to do when taking fire.

 

You can't infinitely hide behind cover, or the enemy will flank you and then you're probably going to die when you get surrounded.

 

Having mobs that go through cover (Railgun MOAs are already very freaking annoying that you can't do anything from being stunned by these stupid things every 5 seconds) is just plain annoying.

 

And besides, they make no sense.

 

Scorpions? Just how do you throw a rope through a wall or a crate? I'd love to know just how that is physically possible. Same goes with Railgun Moas. Okay, so you can shoot through a grate, or a crate with a Railgun... but what about a solid metal wall? How do you even AIM at someone through a wall with a pinpoint weapon like a Railgun?

The point is to take out stuns, and replace them with cover-bypassing options. You can still use cover, but you can't mass effect style chest high walls sit behind a piece of cover without moving until all enemies in a room are dead- these options encourage you to be mobile in your use of cover, rather than using cover-shooter style play.

Ideally the best fix for wallhacking enemies is that they must first see you WITHOUT cover. Once they establish line of sight to you, they can maintain it for a duration- say 15 seconds.

So you run into a room and see a S#&$load of Grineer, then duck behind cover. You poke out and shoot a couple then duck back in, poke out, duck back in- and then the Grineer with the anti-material sniper rifle shoots you through the cover, having established LoS when you last poked out.

As opposed to just having omnivision and shooting through walls the moment you get into theoretical range.

Ideally, the Grineer Sniper guy would have a gun with a charge up time of say five seconds, infinite piercing, and have to establish LoS to you anywhere between 5 to 20 seconds before he fires. The round would do high damage, and push you back- but it wouldn't apply a knockdown, because knockdowns are almost as bad as stunlocks.

Corpus, on the other hand, should have some sort of techie solution to cover shooter-ing, like say a flying drone that upgrades nearby troops with a piercing attack.

Infested on the gripper hand, would either have a new enemy type or upgrade an existing one with a grenade power that creates toxic smoke at the point of impact. So they throw it towards you when you're in cover, and the toxic smoke gives you a choice of ducking out of cover to avoid taking damage, or waiting the smoke out if you're huge and have huge guts. Like toxic smoke in general, it doesn't stun, and it doesn't knockdown.

[Whackhat]

Stealth play? Enemies can't shoot you if they aren't aware of you, thus this doesn't break stealth play. Cover has never been necessary for defense missions or swarms of ranged mobs for all but the most underpowered Warframes. Making Electric Shield and Snowglobe nullify puncture would give basically all Warframes a method to nullify incoming ranged damage to a very large degree.

 

And sniping? You can snipe from the open. You're still 100% accurate with Latrons and Snipetrons while moving. Frankly, videogame 'sniping' (i.e. camping) is also something that's totally unsuited for Warframe. Whereas this set of changes would make real sniping (fire a few shots and change your position) viable.

 

The only mechanics it'd kill are overexaggerated lethality which makes melee nonviable for Warframes outside of Ash/Loki, and bad mechanics like cover cheesing in a fast-paced game. Cover cheesing which, notably, ruins the difficulty for everyone who wants a fast-paced game because you get cut down out of cover in half a second flat due to their insistence on Gears of Warframe.

Not everyone is a fully modded level 30 rhino or frost. Some of us, well all of us actually, had a level 1-29 warframe with minimal mods and low survivability. This may be applicable for the end-game ub3r player, but not everyone can take an infinite amount of hits. Lets take a frame mostly used for sniping, banshee for example. Have you ever played as a banshee outside of cover? probably not. if you did, you died. She has low defense, average mobility, and few ways to increase survivability. while cover isn't necessary if you have 800+ shields, even while moving you will be hit.

 

I recently built and leveled an ash, and attempted to do what is suggested in this thread. I had on only movement increasing mods and skill mods. I died. Epically. I wound up rushing because i could not survive an encounter with constant wall runs, jumps, somersaults, etc, and i'd argue that i'm a pretty good shot.

 

I was a tribes (and legions, global agenda, beta'd for firefall, and the game most like this one: Genesis A.D. [Check videos, similar gameplay]) player for a long time. I understand the importance of movement. However, all of those games still use cover prominently. In some, cover was much larger, like an entire building or fortress, others had normal old rocks and crates. But all of them had cover.

 

Think of if you, as a tenno, had x-ray vision and a gun that shoots through walls. The first letters out of anyone's mouth would be "OP."

 

This idea is terrible because it takes any tactics out of this game. It would just be a whole bunch of people running around chaotically spraying in every which direction.

 

Now, yes, snipers are accurate while moving. But i enjoy my skill shots. like a Grineer leg through a gap in the staircase on the opposite side of the room. I know, i know, "Go back to COD you f*g."... but there is a place for it in this game.

 

Let me ask you this:

 

What do we do if we are almost dead?

we have no cover, enemies can shoot at us through walls, our only option is to attempt to run faster.

So I die.

 

My teammate sees me down, attempts to revive me. HE HAS TO REMAIN STATIONARY TO REVIVE ME.

Dead.

 

So two of us are down, i bleed out, dead.

 

Movement is necessary as it stands. if you stay in the same place, enemies move to shoot you. But it is balanced at the moment, between movement and cover.

 

You take hits, you hide to let your shields regen. Enemies move to try to kill you again, you move.

 

I like the meta as it is (stealth needs help), and so do many other people.

 

If you still insist it is a good idea, try it. I dare you.

 

Run up to every enemy, don't ever go behind a wall or cover, and try to eliminate all the enemies.

 

This is not Gears of Warframe, but it also isnt Warframe : Ascend.