A Proposition For The Dojo Costs

[vieuxchat]

What about the idea of scaling the costs to the number of players in the clan, as broken down into a variety of ranges?

 

The obvious cheat/workaround is for a few people from a large existing clan to break off, form small clan, do the building less expensively, and then invite the rest of the larger clan to quit and join the new one.  So if this system were to be adopted, perhaps there needs to be a limit on how large a clan can be allowed to grow, once they've taken advantage of the cheaper build rates?  Or perhaps they can pay some sort of a "fee" to be allowed to add members beyond their initial range once building has commenced?

With my system there's no such problem. Costs are the same for anyone. It's just that bigger clans can speed things up (so bigger clans are better than smaller clans but letting small clans have a chance to start projects).

Small clan will have to pay with "Time". There would be no need to be small, then get big.

That's why I prefer my system over costs proportionnals to the number of members.

[vieuxchat]

i like. nothing else to say. not even anything to add to the idea xD it's already complete. 

Thank you ^___^ But it seems I should have made some flaws because noone ever discuss about it :P

 

I still wait for feedback about the waiting time.

Is 45 days of waiting to get a full dojo enough ? Not enough ?

Shoudl I keep the /5 x5 proportions ? Or should we go smaller (/3 x3) or bigger ? (/10 x10) ?

[TexasFightBunny]

This would be awesome. My clan is about sixty members strong and we're having trouble farming for the resources we need to build up our dojo. We're making good progress but only because all of us are pretty much working round the clock. I have a life. I can't be playing Warframe all the time, as much as I would like to. This would let us still be able to make a decent dojo without having to run ourselves ragged to get like 20k rubedo for every room (which is hard). 

 

This system definitely has my support.

[Loswaith]

I have mentioned this around so it may have been one of my posts the OP read (could of been others too), though the idea wasnt originally mine either (so I dont deserve any credit), but I am having trouble actually finding the post where it was first mentioned, search and post histories only get you so far.

 

Edit: I found the comment I originally found here by Viziroth.

 

I am working on an idea much the same as this but didnt go with multiplication so much, once I've got a skeleton up ill add it if you like for further weight/idea to the process.  I'm working it around the precept of 4 man teams or "squads" so see that a small guild is up to about 20 members (1-5 squads), medium is 20-60 (5-15 squads) members and a large being 60 to about 100 (15-25 squads), while anything 100+ is huge (25+ squads). 

 

I realy like this concept because it trades the grinding for time.  IE. Grinding is exchanged for time.  It doesnt favour any size of clan either, its simply the more resources you can push out the faster you get something.

 

I do think smaller guilds should get things slower (they have a smaller workforce afterall), I dont however think they should need to do more grinding however than a larger guild.

 

That said the benefit is there for those that do enjoy grinding/farming, they will get things quicker than a clan 'typically' would of their own size.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Loswaith

[Donicfani]

+1 Needs to happen.

[SirNerdsAlot5]

I doubt they're going to complicate the system like that, but it is a good notion at least.

[Sethane_]

I like this idea. I'm part of a small clan of only about 10 people and we have no intention of making it bigger. But this would mean it will talk close to a year, no joke I worked this all out, to finish all the current dojo rooms let alone any new ones that are brought out. We are constantly wanting it too be cheaper and I do hope that this idea is implimented into the game. 

Also if your goal is to get people into masive clans I think you might lose a few hundred people. about 1/3 of the people I talk to say they only want a small clan. It doesn't have too be with people you know in RL but ust a small clan works fantasticly. It means you quickly learn and play with almost everyone in the clan, you all can talk in the same clan chat and it not turn into a region chat and it means you can all group up and easily organize to help eachother in a mission. Larger clans are much more annoying as you must ask in chat and hope like hell someone takes notice of you. But small clans are now almost pointless because we can't get as much as a big clan. We are limited now to weapon choices and my clan is having trouble just building the reactor to get the dueling room (btw great idea with having the build reactors before you can get anything good. That Iove XD) but like I said it will take us way too long.

Hope the creators read this and install it in soon. I know it will make alot of people happy :)

[vieuxchat]

I doubt they're going to complicate the system like that, but it is a good notion at least.

Complicate ? O_o

They just need two things : change the actual cost and let us pay up to 5 times (and each time it reduces the waiting time).

It's something they can already do codewise : with the plat to speed up the building of weapons/warframes.

[TraumaHunter]

This is a really good idea worth considering.

I hope DE takes a peak at it... It addresses the concerns they have talked about publicly so far (blowing through content) and it addresses clan sizes and their grinding ability.

The values themselves I have not thought about in a balance sense - I will admit. But I will certainly put my 2 cents on those when I have time to really get down and open a spreadsheet :P

The more chances one has to "dump their resources" onto it - the better imo.

Maybe making it in increments of 1000 resources will knock down the time a %

This gives people a sense of accomplishment and encourages active playing.

[Loswaith]

I have a skeleton of costs and time frame put togeather based around the original concept (by Viziroth) of this;

dubed Grindless Dojo as a spreadsheet.

 

The gold shaded costs are the current costs and build times.

 

The end goal is to make Dojos viable for all sizes of clans, without excessive grind needed for anyone.

 

Short infomation:

 - The essence is it takes more time to build with less invested resources, though still some investment needs to be made.

 - The resources are what I'd consider ammounts you can get for just playing the game, without realy any additional grinding/farming.

 - Credit's dont change from time to time (the exception is a faster build, you pay for speed). The credit amounts are quite low and shouldnt be too hard for 1 or 2 members to accumuilate anyway.

 - Rather than investing more resourses to speed up the time progressivly, it would be selected from the outset, leaving only rushing via platinum to complete rooms once resources are commited to the build.

 

Detailed Information:

The balance is based around a rough estimate of small clans being up to 20 members medium clans being around 20-60 members, large being around 60-100 members and 100+ members being huge clans.  While not how I'd break it down for other games, given Warframes 4 man squads it is generally better to have it lower.

 

Basically the concept uses the basis of time to reduce resources (thus reduce grinding), while keeping an incentive to actually still use more and build faster.  So the basic premis of the Warframe econemy; time vs cost.

 

The base costs and build time is what I'd exect a large clan to be using, they typically have a good number of members to draw on with likely a core active group.  The faster build time I'd realy only expect the huge clans to even consider, but maybe not even use unless they have to have it now.

Medium clans I can see being more usefor the moderate build times and costs, so basically a balance of time and costs for them, while smaller clans would obviously be more inclined to use the lower resources at the expence of the largest build times.

That said clans that like to farm (ie. enjoy the grind) or have a good constant playerbase can push up into larger clan block thus getting faster build times.

 

While the system is more complex than the current one I think its worth it to make the Dojo more fair, thusly making it a viable option for all clans reguardless of their size.  Letting people be part of the size clan they want.

Larger clans will obviously have it easier as the average resource share for each member is lower than that for smaller clans, however the current system is still much worse.

 

I dont thik it will impact DE's bottom line too much either (looking more appealing to them as well) as it works on their pay for convinence model, in that the less you pay the longer you have to wait while not making the wait time excessive.   Given rush costs currently (750 plat for a hallway), longer build times rushed will net more for them than the loss from less forma.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Loswaith

[vieuxchat]

Your idea is well thought.

But I still prefer the simple way of thinking of "only one price to rule them all you can pay several times".

[TaTooKa]

+1,

but as someone said "waiting is easy" or "cheap way out", the waiting times should be greater AND you shouldn't be able to queue rooms behind one another (so you have to wait like a week to get that hallway and THEN you get to pick what goes next).

[zagibu]

What you propose is a drastic cost reduction. Trading 12 forma for 4 days longer build time will never be accepted by the devs. Do you know how long it currently takes for a 10 man clan to farm 12 forma? Much longer than 4 days, that's for sure (livestream forma obviously doesn't count). It's also an incentive for large clans to play less. Why should they spend 12 forma that can be used in weapon polarization for the dojo, when all they have to do is wait for four days?

 

No, the ONLY thing that could work is if investment in the dojo itself would scale with player count. Like in the real world, where you have to build rooms for everyone to sleep in and storage for all the equipment. Research should be balanced so that the lowest tier items can be researched by a 10 man clan in approximately two weeks of regular play time. Second tier items should take an additional month and third tier items two. So if you decided to stay in a 10 man clan, it would take approximately half a year to build all dojo rooms and research everything.

 

Now, in order to accelerate this process, you would have to build barracks and generators to give additional players access to the dojo in order to help with construction and research costs. Building these barracks would slow down the large clans, but they would eventually still have an advantage in numbers and be much faster with construction and research, so that a 100 man clan could be done with everything in a month.

 

All values are just propositions of course and subject for debate. The main idea is that to gain advantage in numbers, you must gradually invest in the dojo, slowly accelerating the speed in which you can get things done, even if you are a bazillion members strong.

Edited May 30, 2013 by zagibu

[Loswaith]

Actually your concept of extra bits to build for supply was mentioned a number of times, weeks before the dojo was even released as a balancing option.  Given it wasnt implemened we can only figure that DE decided not to use that method.

 

What you are forgetting is that farming a warframe is exactly the same cost reduction (more in some cases).  You can farm a warframe easily in under 12 hours and then it takes only 48 hours to build it, and some of them you are looking at a good 300+ platinum loss as opposed to the 12 forma being only 240 platinum loss.  So DE has already shown the precidence that those kind of time frames are acceptable, for a loss of up to 375 platinum. 

Also keep in mind, even though it is a reduction of 12 forma you still need a good 12+ for something like the great hall that most small clans wont need to build anyway.  The other side is that given it costs 750 platinum to rush a hall section thats a 12 hour build, more wealthy small clans that dont have the resource limits (that only farming provides), cant rush builds so DE is loosing out more effective income with the current system.  Rushing that 4 days will net far more income that could possibly be lost on 12 forma.

 

You also cant now disclude that because of the livestream forma alert (a 12 hour one), any large clan has all the forma they will ever need to build their dojos, futhering the gap between the small/medium clans and the large ones.

 

I'm also guessing you havent read the 100s of posts about people complaining about weapon and warframe build times, the glaive/ Vauban being put on alters, and countless other complaints about having to wait.

 

The bottom line is people dont want to wait (many clans have a full dojo already, so they spent platinum on rushing them. Not actions for those willing to wait is it?).  Thats why Steve mentioned in the live stream that he was very supprised at people wanting the instant gratification.

 

Sure some may take up the option but then those people are playing the game longer too because of it, and are more invested in the game at the end of it.  So more likely to spend money down the road.

 

The current Dojo costs are basiaclly smaller guilds likely wont bother with them, thus are locked out of content so are more likely to leave the game because they are being effectivly denied the option to play with their small clans or worse they may just mooch the gear off larger clans then take all that gear back to a smaller guild and never pay for a single platinum.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Loswaith

[Ronin666]

the thing is, waiting is easy

Agreed. Patience works out in the long run for games/features in alpha or beta.

The only easy  (not necessarily best) way DE can implement their Clan tiers based on member limits is to refund any and all resources/plat, and then wipe all clans.

That's the least painful from their end, with "alpha" being a legit reason for the wipe. 

Any other method of a phased migration into the tiered clan sizes that DE Steve sort of sketched out would require a LOT of work/data migration.

Basically, it's a Catch 22 with the current situation due to player base demand.

 

[Loswaith]

I doubt they actually will do a wipe, they have generally been reluctant to wipe peoples progress.  This may be an exception however.

 

While it is true that waiting is easy, few people are actually willing to wait for things as the glaive release showed in the masses of complaints on having to wait out the alert system (as well as allot of other things). 

If waiting is so easy as mentioned we would have no complaints about the alert system and build times, and no one rushing builds.  Given these things happen, clearly it isnt as easy as sugested for some people.

 

At the end of the day grinding is waiting, but forcing you to do something you may or maynot want to do with your time.  I'd prefer to simply play another game than bother with the excessive grind and I'd be supprised if im alone in that theory.

 

At the end of the day if waiting is easy for you, isnt it a bonus for you to wait then, while those that obviously cant wait are hindered.  Though i doubt anyone is willing to wait 6+ months for a Dojo to get to a point they can start researcing.

 

 

+1,

but as someone said "waiting is easy" or "cheap way out", the waiting times should be greater AND you shouldn't be able to queue rooms behind one another (so you have to wait like a week to get that hallway and THEN you get to pick what goes next).

The nature of needing to build off pieces you are already building means there will naturally be limits to how much you can queue up.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Loswaith

[zagibu]

I have to agree with many of your points, but I think the problem with the alert system is not necessarily the wait, but that the wait might be futile, because you miss the alert.

[vieuxchat]

Waiting is an "easy" thing to do, but some people want things fast. I don't want things fast. I even think the 45 days I proposed for on eof each room is too fast.

I want to "earn" my dojo.

But I don't want to wait a whole year before starting research.

 

And I would buy forma if it had a lower price (at least half of it) or if the forma price for rooms was lower.

 

I know I have a lot of platinum to spend, but I also know that mor ean dmore content will be added that will need plat. And There's one thing I absolutely want : being able to create my own levels/enemies/etc.

And I'm fairly sure they will add forma as a cost for it. SO I don't want to spend mindlessly my plat (my GM package has eaten all my games budget of the year -__- That game is just so awesome I couldn't not buy it :P)

[Loswaith]

Thats one of the things with a cost vs time scalling with a good selection of options is it lets people choose whether they want to wait or 'work' for things.

 

Prehaps you feel that farming for twice the resources feels like you earned it more, thats then an option for you to take, the benefit you get is it means it will build faster too when you come to build it.

 

Others dont realy want to farm and prefer finding resources while playing, then just waiting longer for the build to happen.  Thats an option for them too.

 

Others love the farming, can go that path too, and as a bonus dont have to wait as long (once the build is started) as either of the previous two options.

 

With various options you make more groups happy, than just one group as they can tailor their choices to their play desires or capabilities.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Loswaith

[dukelego]

This along w/ mods to increase amount per drop and an artifact to boost resource drop rate would be nice

Edited June 4, 2013 by dukelego

[vieuxchat]

Thats one of the things with a cost vs time scalling with a good selection of options is it lets people choose whether they want to wait or 'work' for things.

 

Prehaps you feel that farming for twice the resources feels like you earned it more, thats then an option for you to take, the benefit you get is it means it will build faster too when you come to build it.

 

Others dont realy want to farm and prefer finding resources while playing, then just waiting longer for the build to happen.  Thats an option for them too.

 

Others love the farming, can go that path too, and as a bonus dont have to wait as long (once the build is started) as either of the previous two options.

 

With various options you make more groups happy, than just one group as they can tailor their choices to their play desires or capabilities.

That's why I think it's better than a tier system for clans. A tier system will lead to different prices but won't give as much flexibility as the system I proposed.

With my system you have "choice". And meaningful choice is a great thing in games.