Now Is The Time To Change Damage Mods (And Scaling)

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Some mandatory mods are a good thing. They allow for progression and prevent Modframe:  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/523934-modframe-and-why-ordinary-nerfs-to-mandatory-mods-wont-increase-mod-variety/

So the aura slot? Except even here, there is choice between mods. Mandatory mods aren't a good thing. They're pointless. Might as well just have a skill tree.

 

If elemental mods fit (newly-introduced) utility slots, your idea would be good for crit rifles -- which have 7 mandatory mods choices.  All other weapons have 6 or fewer.

In this system utility slots aren't necessary, because the progression-oriented mods have already been isolated. There's no need for a utility slot in this scenario. For more on crits, my next point.

 

Crits are a good thing, in this game at least.  They allow weapon diversity and levelling weapons is an optional lategame element some players like.

This shows no distinction between having crits and headshot multipliers (which would also allow for weapon diversity). The difference is one depends on luck, while the other is based on player action. As for leveling weapons, I'm not really sure what your point is. My suggested system didn't remove that, but only made it easier to get right back into the action for those who desire to.

 

Mods changing UI function is a programming nightmare, particularly where they involve new buttons/keys to press.

This really shouldn't be a "nightmare" at all, especially if mods affecting UI will become a common occurrence.

Overall feedback:  think about what you're really trying to achieve.  Be specific.  Then, regarding your solution, ask "who's going to be hurt by then?" and "why might DE object to it?"

I have thought about what I'm trying to achieve: a mod system that allows for variety in all eight slots without destroying progression. I think I've been fairly specific already, although perhaps with further edits I can clarify whatever I haven't been specific about.

Who's going to be hurt by my solution? I'm struggling to think of a person or group that would. Why would DE object? Because it doesn't immediately lend itself to monetization, but then neither did parkour 2.0.

[Fifield]

So the aura slot? Except even here, there is choice between mods. Mandatory mods aren't a good thing. They're pointless. Might as well just have a skill tree.

 

They allow for progression as I said.

 

If this was a single player game, it would have 4 slots else it would get complaints and bad reviews for being overfussy  The only reason it has 8 slots it because it has hundreds of mods to fit in them.  Why does it have 100s?  Because it's vastly easier to introduce a new mod than genuine content.

 

A game doesn't need 8 mod slots and we definitely don't want ModFrame so having 4-6 mandatory mods is fine.

 

This shows no distinction between having crits and headshot multipliers (which would also allow for weapon diversity). The difference is one depends on luck, while the other is based on player action.

 

Headshot multipliers seems like a nice addition.

There are what, ~80(?) weapons in this game.  This time next year, there'll be another 30-70.  They all have to be different.

 

But in a game like this where mods & guns substitute for content, crits are good.

 

This really shouldn't be a "nightmare" at all, especially if mods affecting UI will become a common occurrence.

 

Obviously, you have no experience in software engineering.  Think of all the clipping issues capes have.  This is because you're trying to fit together two flexible systems.

 

If you want something that doesn't break every time you change something, don't introduce dependencies.

 

Also, I think DE don't have many coders.

 

I have thought about what I'm trying to achieve: a mod system that allows for variety in all eight slots without destroying progression.

 

Exactly how many mods are you wanting to force the player to hunt down in their collection through that interface before every mission?

 

Who's going to be hurt by my solution?

 

With your inconsitent UI suggestion, DE.  With your Modframe suggestion, the players.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Fifield

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

They allow for progression as I said.

 

If this was a single player game, it would have 4 slots else it would get complaints and bad reviews for being overfussy  The only reason it has 8 slots it because it has hundreds of mods to fit in them.  Why does it have 100s?  Because it's vastly easier to introduce a new mod than genuine content.

 

A game doesn't need 8 mod slots and we definitely don't want ModFrame so having 4-6 mandatory mods is fine.

 

If you're arguing that we don't need as many slots, I could agree. But then saying "so fill them up with a pointless, counterintuitive system" makes little sense.

 

Headshot multipliers seems like a nice addition.

There are what, ~80(?) weapons in this game.  This time next year, there'll be another 30-70.  They all have to be different.

 

But in a game like this where mods & guns substitute for content, crits are good.

Again, a stat like headshot multiplier that depends on player action is better.

 

Obviously, you have no experience in software engineering.  Think of all the clipping issues capes have.  This is because you're trying to fit together two flexible systems. If you want something that doesn't break every time you change something, don't introduce dependencies.

 

You're wrong, and clipping is an entirely different issue. All DE would need to do is introduce a UI stat for specialty rounds, and not display anything if the number of rounds was zero. Thus the UI wouldn't be "dependent" on anything. Besides, look at a mod like berserker. Guess what that does? Clearly it's within DE's capacity already.

 

Also, I think DE don't have many coders.

This shouldn't take many coders.

 

 

Exactly how many mods are you wanting to force the player to hunt down in their collection through that interface before every mission?

Why would players be redoing their entire builds between every mission? But, to answer, around 6 more than now. So not really as catastrophic as you seem to think.

 

 

With your inconsitent UI suggestion, DE.  With your Modframe suggestion, the players.

I already mentioned DE. You didn't back your second sentence up with anything.

[Fifield]

 

If you're arguing that we don't need as many slots, I could agree. But then saying "so fill them up with a pointless, counterintuitive system" makes little sense.

 

If we were redesigning this from scratch then maybe.  I already explained to you twice why mandatory mods are not pointless.

 

 

Again, a stat like headshot multiplier that depends on player action is better.

 

Both would be better.

 

 

You're wrong, and clipping is an entirely different issue. All DE would need to do is introduce a UI stat for specialty rounds, and not display anything if the number of rounds was zero. Thus the UI wouldn't be "dependent" on anything. Besides, look at a mod like berserker. Guess what that does? Clearly it's within DE's capacity already.

 

As I said, you have no software engineering experience.  One dependency you've created is that nothing else can now use that space where the number of rounds goes.

 

Another dependency is that you've called for an extra key to be used, but only when a mod is fitted.

That's two entire new subsystems to be created that will have to be checked for compatibility with every future change in the game.

 

 Why would players be redoing their entire builds between every mission? But, to answer, around 6 more than now. So not really as catastrophic as you seem to think.

 

You want to force players to have to hunt for 7-8 mods with that UI between every mission?

 

Yep, that's Modframe.

[Burnthesteak87]

Dudes, you both have nice ideas, we are looking for good alternatives to actual ingame problems, which is way better than flaming DE like 90% of the community are doing...
Let's be comprensive and not so harsh between us.

Details like UI probably are a minor thing which we can't deal with. Who cares about them.

Also it's not even 100% sure these concepts will make it to DE, there's no need to getting it to a personal level.

Also @Fifield, you use your term "Modframe" too much freely, it's not a part of a public language, people need to understand what's its meaning. Please be more clear.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment]

I would like to note that multi shot post nerf won't technically double the damage anymore it will double the fire rate

I like a lot of the ideas especially the serration and thunderbolt ideas

[Fifield]

Let's be comprensive and not so harsh between us.

 

That might be a fair comment.  OP asked for feedback, his suggestions are a lot better than most and he's been a sport about replying.

 

Also @Fifield, you use your term "Modframe" too much freely, it's not a part of a public language, people need to understand what's its meaning. Please be more clear.

 

It'll catch on. *wink*.  Plus I link to this thread every time: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/523934-modframe-and-why-ordinary-nerfs-to-mandatory-mods-wont-increase-mod-variety/

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

That might be a fair comment.  OP asked for feedback, his suggestions are a lot better than most and he's been a sport about replying.

 

 

It'll catch on. *wink*.  Plus I link to this thread every time: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/523934-modframe-and-why-ordinary-nerfs-to-mandatory-mods-wont-increase-mod-variety/

Likewise. I stopped arguing long enough to actually pay attention to your post; your main problem is that you see people needing to spend lots of time modding with this suggestion? And that's what you mean by "modframe"?

[Jamescell]

Agree with the first point. Not the second.

 

As for the third, all RNG is unnecessary. There are other systems that do everything RNG does besides make unlucky players frustrated.

[Dobermann92]

What can kill a lvl 200 corrupted heavy gunner easily? I tell you what: tonkor. There is nothing else what you should use, except maybe some newly released shotguns....so where is the power creep?

 

Oh you never played t3-t4 survival for 2-3 hours, sorry...

 

DE should add the serration mod to the weapon's stats and leave multishot alone....(tonkor would be viable anyway).

Edited September 8, 2015 by Dobermann92

[Fifield]

Likewise. I stopped arguing long enough to actually pay attention to your post; your main problem is that you see people needing to spend lots of time modding with this suggestion? And that's what you mean by "modframe"?

 

Yes.

 

If it's one click to immediately go to a pre-optimised build then great.  That's the kind of variety I want.

 

We only have 3 builds per weapon.  We need 2 just for the corrosive/viral builds (and only DE know what Sentients will need).  If this multishot/ammo nerf goes through, we'll need another 2 for corrosive+ammo mutation/viral+ammo mutation.

 

If we had more than 5 it could get unwieldy.

 

I made the suggestion of partial configurations.  The save mechanism would give you the option of not saving some slots and asks you for a short name for the button.

 

So let's say you want to swap a 3rd damage mod for Rifle Ammo Mutation.  You simply press the "Ammo" button you set up.  Rifle Ammo Mutation replaces whatever mod you have in the slot you specified.  The button, being smart, then says "Revert" whilst you have Rifle Ammo Mutation in there and if you press it again, puts the original mod back.

 

Here's how it gets better than what we have now:

 

1. Instead of needing 4 tabs for Corrosive/Viral/Corrosive with Rifle Ammo Mutation and Viral with Rifle Ammo Mutation, you just need 3 buttons.  The disparity increase the more complicated build-diversity becomes.

 

Instead of taking 10s to find the Rifle Ammo Mutation mod and slotting it then forgetting about it and accidentally taking it to eg Draco before taking another 10s to revert it...

You just press a button to include it and learn to notice whether any buttons are saying Revert after that mission.  It could be in a different colour for that reason.

 

2. If you mess with your build for a single mission, you can get it back in a couple of mouse clicks.

3. You never have to copy a build over to a new blank tab.

 

4. Your configurations are never reset if you forma/move polarity.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Agree with the first point. Not the second.

 

As for the third, all RNG is unnecessary. There are other systems that do everything RNG does besides make unlucky players frustrated.

Why don't you like the second point?

[Viedra_Lavinova]

Remove all damage modifying mods, adding them to gear progression, and fix enemy scaling then you're fine. Damage mods are the toxin that ruins/ kills the game.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Yes.

 

If it's one click to immediately go to a pre-optimised build then great.  That's the kind of variety I want.

 

We only have 3 builds per weapon.  We need 2 just for the corrosive/viral builds (and only DE know what Sentients will need).  If this multishot/ammo nerf goes through, we'll need another 2 for corrosive+ammo mutation/viral+ammo mutation.

 

If we had more than 5 it could get unwieldy.

 

I made the suggestion of partial configurations.  The save mechanism would give you the option of not saving some slots and asks you for a short name for the button.

 

So let's say you want to swap a 3rd damage mod for Rifle Ammo Mutation.  You simply press the "Ammo" button you set up.  Rifle Ammo Mutation replaces whatever mod you have in the slot you specified.  The button, being smart, then says "Revert" whilst you have Rifle Ammo Mutation in there and if you press it again, puts the original mod back.

 

Here's how it gets better than what we have now:

 

1. Instead of needing 4 tabs for Corrosive/Viral/Corrosive with Rifle Ammo Mutation and Viral with Rifle Ammo Mutation, you just need 3 buttons.  The disparity increase the more complicated build-diversity becomes.

 

Instead of taking 10s to find the Rifle Ammo Mutation mod and slotting it then forgetting about it and accidentally taking it to eg Draco before taking another 10s to revert it...

You just press a button to include it and learn to notice whether any buttons are saying Revert after that mission.  It could be in a different colour for that reason.

 

2. If you mess with your build for a single mission, you can get it back in a couple of mouse clicks.

3. You never have to copy a build over to a new blank tab.

 

4. Your configurations are never reset if you forma/move polarity.

How about being able to swap loadouts outside the mod screen? So you could click "swap loadout" to make the prospect of four or five loadouts sane? Maybe this could even happen during the beginning cutscene segment, but that might be a pain and not worth it.

The good thing about this modding suggestion is that I don't think people will need their perfect loadout; they'll notice differences, but those won't be catastrophic problems.

[Liminal]

We could also get more loadout slots and the ability to rename them ...

That could give MR another use.

[croxeye]

to the OP, looks like DE is actually paying attention to the community feedback regarding weapon and enemy scaling issues:

 

https://twitter.com/GooseDE/status/641274057464389632?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

 

if you notice the first question asked is if serration/armor scaling/damage will be changed as well, he says "Nuclear bomb"

 

 

Also Fifeild, the more you plug your own post the less likely people who haven't read it will actually read it (like myself)

Edited September 9, 2015 by croxeye

[Fifield]

How about being able to swap loadouts outside the mod screen? So you could click "swap loadout" to make the prospect of four or five loadouts sane? Maybe this could even happen during the beginning cutscene segment, but that might be a pain and not worth it.

The good thing about this modding suggestion is that I don't think people will need their perfect loadout; they'll notice differences, but those won't be catastrophic problems.

 

How about being able to swap loadouts outside the mod screen? So you could click "swap loadout" to make the prospect of four or five loadouts sane? Maybe this could even happen during the beginning cutscene segment, but that might be a pain and not worth it.

 

No idea what you mean here.

Also, not all weapons are loaded -- to do so would take significantly more time & memory.

 

Also Fifeild, the more you plug your own post the less likely people who haven't read it will actually read it (like myself)

 

Can't please all the contrarians.  Thanks for the Twitter link.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Fifield

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

to the OP, looks like DE is actually paying attention to the community feedback regarding weapon and enemy scaling issues:

 

https://twitter.com/GooseDE/status/641274057464389632?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

 

if you notice the first question asked is if serration/armor scaling/damage will be changed as well, he says "Nuclear bomb"

This is good to hear, and I really hope DE doesn't forget elemental mods. I can't recall any discussions of moving damage mods to auras happening, but do you know if DE's ever weighed in on this?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

No idea what you mean here.

Also, not all weapons are loaded -- to do so would take significantly more time & memory.

I meant more like how PVP does it, where you can quickly change predesigned loadouts (but for the individual weapons and not just the whole package), rather than flipping through 12 buttons or running to the arsenal.

[Idiocy]

It seems everyone is incredibly keen on massive changes that have the potential to leave a bad taste in the mouth of a huge amount of players.

If you wipe out the high amount of time spent grinding for a lot of players, you'll shrink the playerbase.

Depending on the changes DE comes up with, adequate compensation is a requirement.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Idiocy

[Burnthesteak87]

It seems everyone is incredibly keen on massive changes that have the potential to leave a bad taste in the mouth of a huge amount of players.

If you wipe out the high amount of time spent grinding for a lot of players, you'll shrink the playerbase.

Depending on the changes DE comes up with, adequate compensation is a requirement.

If it's for the good of the game, only ignorant people will keep it up with their offended attitude.

Smart ones will understand and behave with it.

[Fifield]

Yes, the game has only got better and better since update 12.  I do wonder if we didn't spend time countering all these Chicken Littles and haters, whether DE might actually take them seriously.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

It seems everyone is incredibly keen on massive changes that have the potential to leave a bad taste in the mouth of a huge amount of players.

If you wipe out the high amount of time spent grinding for a lot of players, you'll shrink the playerbase.

Depending on the changes DE comes up with, adequate compensation is a requirement.

I'm not even sure what you're referring to relates to this suggestion. All high-ranking mods exist, Formas exist (I would allow them to be stacked, but that's for another discussion) and are easier than ever to change. Compensation for crit mods? I imagine those would just get the stamina mod treatment (as if crit mods were such a big investment in the first place).

I'm really not sure what you're talking about.