De, Here Is Why Your Multishot "fix" Will Not Increase Mod Variety

[Acidulant]

Not to mention it will make multishot mods differently worded fire rate mods,

If you're going to do as you proposed, make multishot consume ammo, it's going to be still staple on most on weapons that have good ammo efficiency. Namely the Latron series, Sybaris, Lex... etc.

Since they are not going to have ammo economy problem even if your proposed "fix" hits. They'll just have to reload more often. (Which nets in lost sustain DPS still)

But all other guns that sacrifice ammo efficiency to achieve DPS will suffer pretty bad. No amount of ammo mutation will keep their ammo draining to 0 in matter of seconds.

Now please keep 'multishot is excessive DPS anyway' argument away please. If you try to solo T4 survival, heavy enemies very quickly become bullet sponges. We NEED that DPS. Not to mention the lost bullets trying to pop nullifier shields and ancients.

DE's proposal brings no mod variety in those situations since Multishot DPS is 'required'. It just worsens the life of high fire rate weapon users.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Acidulant

[AsuraKyu]

If i remember right they're trying to achieve balance, not diversity. For something to prevail something must fall is pretty much the case here

[Acidulant]

If i remember right they're trying to achieve balance, not diversity. For something to prevail something must fall is pretty much the case here

Hm, even if it were intended to achieve balance, it won't really achieve balance as there is ammo restores in game.

If using resource sinks (ammo restores) to sustain required DPS can be called balance, I guess that somewhat fits.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Acidulant

[PhoenixElite]

If i remember right they're trying to achieve balance, not diversity. For something to prevail something must fall is pretty much the case here

Then maybe they should start with one of the two main problems.

Infinite enemy scaling, and power creep. Balance and diversity can co-exist rather easily. The only thing making multishot use ammo does is give more reason to use ammo-efficient weapon, and heavily discourage the use of bullet hoses, gorgon, soma, supra, s. gammacor, pretty much EVERY full-auto weapon. Plus, that multishot is very needed, enemies get very tanky, very easily, very quickly.

[Clovis15]

All hail the new Designated Marksmen Rifle overlords...

 

Also, this new Multi-Shot idea is stupid.

[CruelCrow]

Random thought: Multishot on vanilla Vectis. What happens? Free 90% damage, no ammo cost?

[Acidulant]

Random thought: Multishot on vanilla Vectis. What happens? Free 90% damage, no ammo cost?

Easiest way to code the DE's proposal is to just have the gun shoot another round from magazine pool when the mod triggers.

So most likely it will be a wasted slot.

But we'll have to wait and see.

[AM-Bunny]

It's my guess (purely speculation) that the extra round consumed by Multishot will be drawn from your maximum ammo pool, not your magazine. Otherwise, it would be completely un-usable on something like Vectis. This would also separate Multishot from Fire Rate mods mechanically, since they wouldn't affect the time between reloads.

[ZzVinniezZ]

i can see multishot nerf will effect the continuous weapon by x2 more useless

[TheBrsrkr]

You could just, you know, use multishot on the weapons you think you can handle with it. Which was exactly the point of this.

 

 

Hm, even if it were intended to achieve balance, it won't really achieve balance as there is ammo restores in game.

Still gotta reload.

[Acidulant]

You could just, you know, use multishot on the weapons you think you can handle with it. Which was exactly the point of this.

Still gotta reload.

And trash others that cant handle multishot because they dont reach the dps threshhold to kill any 50+ level mobs in reasonable time. Bright idea. Edited September 5, 2015 by Acidulant

[TheBrsrkr]

And trash others that cant handle multishot because they dont reach the dps threshhold to kill any 50+ level mobs in reasonable time. Bright idea.

I keep hearing about these weapons that everyone says can't do anything at a higher level, and there was this video of a guy going to 40 with a MK-1 Braton that just keeps ringing in my head......

The TTK in Warframe is usually less than a second. Removing multishot, which doubled your damage, kicks that up to two seconds. Adding another damage mod, such as an elemental mod, more punch through, faster reload, bigger clip, they all affect that time in some way.Pardon me if I'm not impressed.

[Acidulant]

I keep hearing about these weapons that everyone says can't do anything at a higher level, and there was this video of a guy going to 40 with a MK-1 Braton that just keeps ringing in my head......

The TTK in Warframe is usually less than a second. Removing multishot, which doubled your damage, kicks that up to two seconds. Adding another damage mod, such as an elemental mod, more punch through, faster reload, bigger clip, they all affect that time in some way.Pardon me if I'm not impressed.

*insert personal anecdote here*

If it takes .5 more seconds to deal with each enemy, due to Warframe's enemies swarming, 40 enemies make solid 20 more seconds to deal with them, which is huge.

[SicSlaver]

This change is actually a good idea. Multishot will not be the penultimate mod of choice. What they do need to do is buff the other utility mods to make them more attractive, like reload speed and magazine size mods.

 

The change can seem daunting and scary to some people, but just adapt to it and enjoy the new challenge.

Edited September 5, 2015 by SicSlaver

[CalebQuincy]

 and heavily discourage the use of bullet hoses, gorgon, soma, supra, s. gammacor, pretty much EVERY full-auto weapon. Plus, that multishot is very needed, enemies get very tanky, very easily, very quickly.

 

They're going to buff the ammo-hungry weapons in that aspect.

 

• There will be many guns that will be tweaked in response to this change - particularly ammo-hungry weapons may get ammo buffs, for instance

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?%2Ftopic%2F522962-devstream-59-overview%2F

 

Also

 

 

This change is actually a good idea. Multishot will not be the penultimate mod of choice. What they do need to do is buff the other utility mods to make them more attractive, like reload speed and magazine size mods.

 

The change can seem daunting and scary to some people, but just adapt to it and enjoy the new challenge.

 

^This, so much.

Edited September 5, 2015 by -Clazziqual

[Acidulant]

They're going to buff the ammo-hungry weapons in that aspect.

• There will be many guns that will be tweaked in response to this change - particularly ammo-hungry weapons may get ammo buffs, for instance

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?%2Ftopic%2F522962-devstream-59-overview%2F

Also

^This, so much.

If they are already so slow at tweaking weapons right now that we're sitting on a pile of obsolete weapons, rebalancing all weapons to attune to new multishot mechanism will not happen for a very, very, very long time.

[TheBrsrkr]

*insert personal anecdote here*

If it takes .5 more seconds to deal with each enemy, due to Warframe's enemies swarming, 40 enemies make solid 20 more seconds to deal with them, which is huge.

The point of that was to show that it can be done, even with a horrible weapon.

Yes, it is a lot of time.  And you won't be able to go as far as you used to. Are these inherently bad things? I'd think not. Adds a bit of challenge, makes the broken weapons less broken, people free up a mod slot for whatever they like, DE actually gets some leeway to balance with now instead of having to make enemies survive our insane DPS and somehow be engaging and non-cheesy. I'd say that's worth 20 seconds.

[Blazer-X]

This change... basically makes 100% Multishot into a 100% Fire Rate mod. Kinda redundant, to be honest. It also kinda screws over most current pistol builds and the recently dethroned SJ-Hek build. If DE is REALLY serious about bringing this monumental change, they BETTER be ready to refund us hundreds of wasted Forma to get those much needed V polarity in our weapon.

[Acidulant]

The point of that was to show that it can be done, even with a horrible weapon.

Yes, it is a lot of time. And you won't be able to go as far as you used to. Are these inherently bad things? I'd think not. Adds a bit of challenge, makes the broken weapons less broken, people free up a mod slot for whatever they like, DE actually gets some leeway to balance with now instead of having to make enemies survive our insane DPS and somehow be engaging and non-cheesy. I'd say that's worth 20 seconds.

All these problems need to be tackled all at once comprehensively. Otherwise every time they 'try' fixing, it will end up in not so pretty situations.

[SicSlaver]

If they are already so slow at tweaking weapons right now that we're sitting on a pile of obsolete weapons, rebalancing all weapons to attune to new multishot mechanism will not happen for a very, very, very long time.

Then you get to enjoy your current multi-shot for a very very very long time because they'll probably not do the changes to multishot until they've tweaked the ammo of every weapon.

 

As it is, fast fire-rate weapons already have so much more of an advantage over slower ones due to massive amounts of enemies that die to one shot and nullifier's bubble shield of stupidity.

This change... basically makes 100% Multishot into a 100% Fire Rate mod. Kinda redundant, to be honest. It also kinda screws over most current pistol builds and the recently dethroned SJ-Hek build. If DE is REALLY serious about bringing this monumental change, they BETTER be ready to refund us hundreds of wasted Forma to get those much needed V polarity in our weapon.

Lol, they're not going to refund you for this. It's like me asking for a refund on Simulor because they released Synoid Simulor. God damn Sanctuary Syndicate weapon.... You're supposed to have been a unique syndicate weapon Simulor!

[Acidulant]

Then you get to enjoy your current multi-shot for a very very very long time because they'll probably not do the changes to multishot until they've tweaked the ammo of every weapon.

As it is, fast fire-rate weapons already have so much more of an advantage over slower ones due to massive amounts of enemies that die to one shot and nullifier's bubble shield of stupidity.

Again, we're making assumptions. Nobody knows when DE will drop the bomb. We just hope for the best that they're actually prepared to retuning massive amount of equipments in the game.

I can make a fairly educated guess that DE will take years trying to balance stuff out.

[TheBrsrkr]

All these problems need to be tackled all at once comprehensively. Otherwise every time they 'try' fixing, it will end up in not so pretty situations.

That is something DE simply cannot do, because ALL the systems have to be overhauled at the same time so as to not leave gaping holes everywhere in the game. For example, abilities and energy. You have to make them competitive with gunplay and accessible enough, but not so good as to be the absolute best choice in every aspect. Energy has to find a midpoint between the two. Efficiency will have to change. Restores and EV will have to be reworked. And that's going to require a lot of nerfs. 

 

You know how the word "nerf" goes down in the forums these days.

[Blazer-X]

Lol, they're not going to refund you for this. It's like me asking for a refund on Simulor because they released Synoid Simulor. God damn Sanctuary Syndicate weapon.... You're supposed to have been a unique syndicate weapon Simulor!

 

Then DE could effectively say goodbye to a good number of their players. Its one thing to screw over someone over 1 weapon every month with a newer shinier copy. Its an ENTIRELY different ballpark game when you screw majority of your established players' weapon-builds in one fell swoop. You think the guys who had to forma 2 slots on every weapon that he likes to fit in a multishot mod is going to be happy when multishot is nerfed and no longer fit half his weapons?

 

I'm not saying DE should or should not commit to this change. But if they do, they better be damn prepared to tweak everything properly or face the consequences. Unfortunately, the history of this game's update seems to indicate that DE is not particularly good at catching all the gaping holes immediately following a big change. What generally follows is weeks of rebalancing and fixes to patch up the gaping holes. While I admire DE's dedication to fix things up ASAP, the truth of matter is if they don't tweak things enough and leave enough players unsatisfied, they will have lost a lot of players before they get around patching every hole to their change.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Blazer-X

[Suzaku4489]

Acidulant and Blazer-X are right.  With the change they're planning, it will make multishot mods fire more rounds in the same amount of time;  This is the definition of fire rate mods...

 

Such a change can only be labeled as a nerf;  not balance, not variety, not a good idea.  Unless the change makes all multishot mods also come with a hefty reload speed boost and ammo gather boost, all it will be doing it increasing burst dps (rather, it would keep it where it currently is), but cripple sustained dps, and ammo efficiency will sink like a rock, especially on stronger weapons where a single shot would get the job done, but you're forced to spend ammo to fire two.

[(XBOX)SlyTYRANT]

Can't even imagine doing t4 with this change .