Zephyr Qol Rework For Parkour 2.0

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

I agree to this but I still think tail wind needs some small adjustments. The way it is right now it's purely a movement ability, which is fine, but you don't have a lot of time in between tail wind casts to actually do something in the air... sure you can take down 1 enemy at a low level but actually taking your time and aiming just wont happen before hitting the ground. Like I suggested in my own topic (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/531678-zephyr-a-more-active-ability-approach-for-tail-wind/) I'd like to suggest making the ability a toggle like equinox his/her first ability and then letting the jumping do the current tail wind animations while doing nothing with the ability active will let you hover or at least slow your falling to a point where you can aim and shoot. combined with the recast delay removal this would be a lot better in my opinion.

But that's where Aim Glide improvement change comes in. You cast Tail Wind, use Aim Glide and you no longer falling (just descending very slowly, much slower than the current aim glide), which gives you around 8-10 seconds to shoot enemies from the air, then you can Dive Bomb on enemies or Tail Wind to another spot and use Aim Glide again for another 8-10 seconds.

 

Sure it would take some practice and skill to be good at that, but flying shouldn't be easy IMO, especially since Infested would be literally helpless against Zephyr if she had easy flying mode, she would be out of hook and tar reach and they have no other ranged units.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

UPDATE: After messing around with Zephyr yesterday, I realised some flaws in my suggestions:

- Tail Wind doesn't need to cancel all of your momentum. Important part of current Zephyr's playstyle is controling your Tail Wind by adding some extra momentum actions to improve your Tail Wind speed when needed. So it only need to cancel the opposite and downwards momentum, alternatively it could "store" any momentum you have on cast (regardless of direction) then cancel your momentum and use the stored one to improve you Tail Wind speed.

 

- Dive Bomb activating only at 3 meters or higher was a bad idea as well, I noticed myself activating Dive Bomb after Tail Winding along the ground quite often, and this change would be pretty annoying. So now it's just Dive Bomb activates while mid-air, regardless of your height (would be easier to code anyway, I think)

 

- Another thing I'm not completely sure about is whether Dive Bomb need to kill all your momentum and just send you straight downwards or retain some of your momentum until you land. It still need to cancel ALL your momentum as soon as you land, because it doesn't make any sense at the moment. But as for the flying momentum I noticed that it might be more intuitive to actually retain some momentum as you go down, but I'm not completely sure about that.

 

Also added a section about why I think Flying ability wouldn't be very good, both for Zephyr and game balance.

Edited September 22, 2015 by (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

UPDATE: After messing around with Zephyr yesterday, I realised some flaws in my suggestions:

- Tail Wind doesn't need to cancel all of your momentum. Important part of current Zephyr's playstyle is controling your Tail Wind by adding some extra momentum actions to improve your Tail Wind speed when needed. So it only need to cancel the opposite and downwards momentum

 

I feel that it should cancel not just vertical and opposite momentum, but also side to side momentum. I often find that if I bullet jump and then turn 90 degrees to the side and use Tail Wind, I often miss my target. I have to aim slightly behind where I want to go to compensate for the momentum. If Tail Wind cancelled all momentum in every direction except the one you're Tail Winding in, you would still be able to augment Tail Wind's speed through the use of Parkour 2.0, but wouldn't have the issue of your momentum screwing you up when Tail Winding sideways.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

I feel that it should cancel not just vertical and opposite momentum, but also side to side momentum. I often find that if I bullet jump and then turn 90 degrees to the side and use Tail Wind, I often miss my target. I have to aim slightly behind where I want to go to compensate for the momentum. If Tail Wind cancelled all momentum in every direction except the one you're Tail Winding in, you would still be able to augment Tail Wind's speed through the use of Parkour 2.0, but wouldn't have the issue of your momentum screwing you up when Tail Winding sideways.

Fair point, so it should cancel all momentum except the direction you're Tail Winding in.

 

I think it would also be interesting if casting Tail Wind just converted all your momentum (regardless of direction) into more Tail Wind speed. This would basically be the same as it is right now when using Tail Wind with the ongoing momentum, but also would boost you just the same even if your momentum is opposite or sideways. Basically it just adds your current speed to Tail Wind speed and sends you flying in that direction overwriting momentum. Not sure If I explain it clear enough. I think this one will be a little bit easier to implement, since it doesn't need to analyze the direction of your momentum and decide if it should cancel it or not.

[BlueThingy]

I agree that Zephyr needs some fairly heavy ajustments with the new parkour system.  Though I think we need Divebomb removed or incorporated into Tailwind.  Keep the changes you propose for Tailwind and divebomb and just make it so Divebomb only activates when Tailwind when you point the view down.

 

This is a pretty common suggestion really.  It seems like a lot of us feel the two powers are just not that strong on their own or at least not worth a powerslot on their own.

 

I'm not sure what would be a good replacement though.  A damage power? A buff? Maybe a debuff? *shrug*

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

I agree that Zephyr needs some fairly heavy ajustments with the new parkour system.  Though I think we need Divebomb removed or incorporated into Tailwind.  Keep the changes you propose for Tailwind and divebomb and just make it so Divebomb only activates when Tailwind when you point the view down.

 

This is a pretty common suggestion really.  It seems like a lot of us feel the two powers are just not that strong on their own or at least not worth a powerslot on their own.

 

I'm not sure what would be a good replacement though.  A damage power? A buff? Maybe a debuff? *shrug*

I've seen that suggestion quite a few times, but personally I don't like it that much for multiple reasons:

1) I'm afraid that it will be too unstable, so you'll end up doing Dive Bomb when trying to Tail Wind or vice versa. This happens with directional melee and ground slam at times, so it might happen here as well. Overall it would need to be very well thought and perfectly programmed to work good.

 

2) It will remove some of the quick cast benefits of Dive Bomb, it's especially important for me as a console player, since quickly looking down is not something we can always do very smoothly. Quick succession of Tail Wind->Dive Bomb would be really hard to do on controller, and I enjoy doing that a lot!

 

3) I haven't seen any ability suggestion that I really liked to replace Power #2 .

 

4) We don't really need to move Dive Bomb since we can just make skill that activates by using your Power #2 on the ground with slightly different effects (like I suggest in the topic). I suggest just a variation of Dive Bomb (with ragdoll instead of just knockdown, Slash proc, less damage, but larger area of effect), but it could actually be just about any power.

Edited September 22, 2015 by (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame

[Ngozi98]

I don't see a problem with Zephyr having wings. As an ability, of course. Get rid of the tornado that don't deal much damage and just stall gameplay. If Zephyr doesn't fly first, Wukong will.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I don't see a problem with Zephyr having wings. As an ability, of course. Get rid of the tornado that don't deal much damage and just stall gameplay. If Zephyr doesn't fly first, Wukong will.

 

The problem with a free flight mode for Zephyr is that even if the tilesets were high enough for flight to be at all practical, it would harm her mobility far more than help it. Much of Zephyr's mobility strength comes from her ability to essentially use Tail Wind like a mega bullet jump, as more of a parkour move than a traditional ability. The tilesets are much too enclosed for flight to be viable, so a free flight mode would replace Zephyr's unique and skillful mobility system with a much clunkier one that the tilesets would be unable to support. A free flight mode would cage Zephyr even more, ironically.

 

Wukong's flight has absolutely zero mobility use whatsoever, so you can't really compare it to Zephyr's mobility tools.

Edited September 23, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

I don't see a problem with Zephyr having wings. As an ability, of course. Get rid of the tornado that don't deal much damage and just stall gameplay. If Zephyr doesn't fly first, Wukong will.

The problem is the game wasn't designed with flying in mind. Introducing one frame that's able to fly like an Archwing would require TON of reworks for enemies, starting with infested. Those reworks might hit other frames negatively as well.

 

Wukong's so called "flying" is the last thing I want for Zephyr. If anything it's an upgraded Undertow, but it has literally nothing to do with flying since it would take like 10 seconds to reach the height of Zephyr's bullet jump.

 

Edit: Zephyr'd

Edited September 23, 2015 by (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame

[Buzkyl]

The problem is the game wasn't designed with flying in mind. Introducing one frame that's able to fly like an Archwing would require TON of reworks for enemies, starting with infested. Those reworks might hit other frames negatively as well.

 

Wukong's so called "flying" is the last thing I want for Zephyr. If anything it's an upgraded Undertow, but it has literally nothing to do with flying since it would take like 10 seconds to reach the height of Zephyr's bullet jump.

 

Edit: Zephyr'd

 

Also taking into consideration that Wukong is heavily slowed down during flight vs Zephyr's very quick jumps.

 

However I think Tailwind can fit into new parkour 2.0 with a neat additon

 

After every tailwind, Zephyr gains an additional double/bullet jump to use. In addition her AimGlide is partly recharged. This doesn't allow Zephyr for free flight, but it would allow Zephyr to remain airborne considerably longer. If combined with new parkour mods Zephyr is going to remain airbone for most of the game.

 

Divebomb could be changed to increase in damage and radius based on the time Zephyr is airbone not height.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

After every tailwind, Zephyr gains an additional double/bullet jump to use. In addition her AimGlide is partly recharged. This doesn't allow Zephyr for free flight, but it would allow Zephyr to remain airborne considerably longer. If combined with new parkour mods Zephyr is going to remain airbone for most of the game.

 

Divebomb could be changed to increase in damage and radius based on the time Zephyr is airbone not height.

 

Tail Wind recharging Aim Glide and possibly renewing your double jump and bullet jump was already in my original topic ;)

 

As for Dive Bomb gaining more damage and radius based on time spent in the air, that's actually a very interesting idea. I'll consider adding it to the topic as an alternative suggestion, if you don't mind.

[Buzkyl]

Tail Wind recharging Aim Glide and possibly renewing your double jump and bullet jump was already in my original topic ;)

 

As for Dive Bomb gaining more damage and radius based on time spent in the air, that's actually a very interesting idea. I'll consider adding it to the topic as an alternative suggestion, if you don't mind.

 

Not a problem, feel free to use it as you see fit.

[IceColdas]

I think Tailwind could a bit of tweaking, mostly the momentum is an issue. 

 

Perhaps give Zephyr three doublejumps in midair, instead of one. That's probably the best and easiest way to give her more air mobility.

Edited September 24, 2015 by IceColdas

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

Update:

Added a suggestion for Dive Bomb, so it gains extra damage based on time you've spent in the air

Added a special mark for most important changes.

[Knightmare047]

Finally a Zephyr change suggestion that doesn't involve flying like Wukong. +1

 

Seriously, though. Zephyr's design looks more towards zipping through the air at high speeds and gliding rather than hovering around.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

Finally a Zephyr change suggestion that doesn't involve flying like Wukong. +1

 

Seriously, though. Zephyr's design looks more towards zipping through the air at high speeds and gliding rather than hovering around.

Yeah, I'm kinda tired of seeing all those posts about Wukong's "flying" killing Zephyr and turn Zephyr into archwing stuff. If anything it's more of a contender for Hydroid's Undertow, since it's quite similar survival skill, but with an ability to move. Although Hydroid traps enemies in his puddle so that's a bit of advantage over Cloudwalk.

[DameDameNingen]

I'd like it if tornado trapped enemies in the center of the funnel, rather than dragging them all over the ceiling and making them hard to hit.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

I'd like it if tornado trapped enemies in the center of the funnel, rather than dragging them all over the ceiling and making them hard to hit.

- Now traps enemies for 10 seconds (affected by duration) before they get a chance to escape (total duration is still 20 seconds)

 

- Shooting Tornado deals weapon's damage to every enemy trapped in Tornado (damage is equally spread between all enemies) Additionally enemy bullets get sucked into Tornado and deal damage as well.

 

I think these changes should help it quite a bit since you can just shoot the Tornado instead, to damage enemies inside. Although it would be helpful if trapping part would actually lock them in the center of funnel like you suggest, similar to vortex or something. Would help to easier understand who's still in Tornado and who's not.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

From Update notes: Zephyr's Tailwind will no longer have a 'power in use' error between casts.

 

Yay, that's something to start with! So does it actually makes Tail Wind quickly recastable and be able to interupt your previous cast?

Edited October 2, 2015 by (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

From Update notes: Zephyr's Tailwind will no longer have a 'power in use' error between casts.

 

Yay, that's something to start with! So does it actually makes Tail Wind quickly recastable and be able to interupt your previous cast?

 

From what I can tell, you can use Tail Wind again immediately after the effect of the previous one ends. You can't cancel the effect with another Tail Wind, though.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

So I forma'd my Zephyr yesterday, to be able to fit any mod into Exilus Slot and discovered a horrible flaw in Tail Wind's ranking. Right now unranked Tail Wind barely beats the height of double jump, and compared to Bullet Jump it just looks like a joke ability at low ranks.

 

So I added a new suggestion to make Tail Wind jump height (fly distance) not scale from ability ranks and instead have a current maxed rank distance at unranked level. (similar to recent Rhino's Roar duration change)