Top 5 Leaderboard player: breaking down the combat, and suggestions to improve it.

[t3st]

Hi DE. HUGE fan of the combat in The Darkness, and became interested in this game when I saw that it had a similar mix of melee, gunplay, and sliced parts (more please!) - only with a stylish space ninja/samurai aesthetic. On video, it looks like Gears of War where you're fighting popamole enemies, only instead of hiding in cover yourself, you're going invisible, teleporting, and flipping out to falcon punch people to pieces. I think the combat will have serious long-term potential, once it's fleshed out.

I'm currently a top 5 leaderboard player, with a vault of rank 30 frames and weapons. I've spent a lot of time in the end-game doing solo Hades runs, farming, and relevelling new frames/gear. Here's my breakdown of the combat, and some suggestions to improve it:

MELEE COMBAT

Combat is most fun and balanced in the early game, when players are using unmodded starter weapons. Melee is king at close range, and mixing it up with gunplay is more efficient than using any one weapon alone. Combat is varied and interesting because you're using slashes, charge attacks, and guns equally.

Unfortunately, the mixed combat used to sell players on the game doesn't hold up as you progress. Melee is simply useless at high levels. I have rank 30 frames farmed out with melee damage mods, an arsenal of rank 30 melee weapons including a Furax with all charge damage upgrades, and a Fragor that one-shots Pluto mobs, which swings as fast I can click. None of them are worth the time it takes to swing sitting next to any of my guns. Guns are better at melee range and against crowds, at a distance, and single targets. They have no startup or recovery frames which leave you locked in animations, hit instantly, have far lower TTK (time to kill) values - they're just plain better at everything, all the time, such that melee weapons are only there to look cool. In close range, guns are my oh $#!^ button, not melee. In speed/farming runs any time spent meleeing is time taken from shooting and reloading guns, which have far greater DPS in every situation.

I'll explain my experiences and reasoning along with my suggestions:

Make charge damage a multiple of melee damage.

eg.

Skana current system:

25 base melee dmg.

75 charge dmg.

Skana new system:

25 base melee dmg

X3 charge multiplier (base melee x 3=75).

Plasma Sword current system:

25 melee dmg

125 charge dmg.

Plasma new system:

25 melee dmg

x5 charge multiplier (base melee 25x5=125).

Unify charge attack damage and melee damage. Instead of set individual values, all melee attacks, including charge, spin, and ground slam are multiples of base melee damage. Weapon upgrades improve the multiplier, instead of adding set damage. This way, the damage ratio stays the same throughout the game.

Convert all current charge damage mods to an AOE modifier, which increases the radius, damage, and effects (higher knockdown chance, more fire damage for the heat sword) of the AOE on the ground slam attack.

There are currently two optimal end-game melee builds. You either load up +melee dmg frame mods to the point where you can one-shot Hades mobs, or you forego melee frame mods and load up your weapon with +charge dmg/speed. With frame melee dmg mods, your regular swings do far more damage than charge attacks. For example with my Fragor, my charge attack takes about 3 seconds from start to finish and take 3 hits to down an enemy, while my regular swings are lightning fast and instant kill - it makes no sense. With charge mods, my charge is instant kill, but regular attacks barely put a dent in their HP. Either way, players are being encouraged to spam one attack, all the time, making end-game melee combat extremely repetitive and one dimensional. With a system that uses multipliers, instead of separate set base damage values, all melee attacks are always useful, even in the late-game.

Increase the damage multipliers for spin attack and direct hits on the ground slam.

Direct weapon hits with the ground slam should do the same damage as charge attack, and the spin attack slightly less than a charge attack. Using the Skana as example, the ground slam would have a base melee x3 multiplier, while the Plasma sword would have x5 multiplier. Currently, the ground slam is almost never useful, regardless of build. The spin attack is the goto attack for melee frame mod builds, but useless with charge builds. In a controlled environment with no mods, both special attacks simply do far too little damage. Do you want players to spam one attack all the time, making the game even more repetitive, or do you want to encourage players to use all tools available, depending on the situation?

Allow melee attacks to be tilted up and down

Darkness 2 has the best, most intuitive controls on the console, by FAR. On the PC, the control scheme is comparable to the likes of Jedi Outcast and Mount & Blade. Holding a button and gesturing the mouse/stick to get exactly the swing direction you want provides unmatched precision and immersiveness. You can create custom combos like swiping up to launch someone in the air, and swipe them into the ground, causing an explosion. You can knock someone down, grab them off the floor when they're stunned, and use them as a shield, all while shooting, tossing body parts and debris, and generally causing hell. There are no canned combos, you're only limited by your imagination.

Here, my attacks can't even touch an enemy I've knocked down, or if they're slightly above me. There are some weapons with vertical attacks, and some with none at all. Melee oriented setups like Rhino's charge which knocks down, or his stomp which floats foes for combos, become entirely useless. What's the point of using melee, when the best way to kill a downed/launched opponent is to just shoot them? If I'm just going to shoot them I wouldn't have bothered to launch/knock down in the first place.

Since there are no precise swings and gesture controls here, let players tilt melee up and down. At the very least, increase the vertical range of melee hit-tracers, so attacks can can reach people on the floor and slightly above. Greatly increase the effectiveness of direct hits on the slam attack, so it's always more worthwhile than simply shooting downed opponents.

No reliance on frame +dmg mods to scale melee effectiveness

Melee damage should be scaled only with weapon mods. This means increasing the +dmg, crit, etc percentage ranges for melee weapon mods. Convert frame +melee dmg mods to something else. Alternatively, add +range dmg mods to frames, so you need to invest in frame mods for optimal gun damage, sacrificing survability/utility just like melee.

If you're focusing on base melee attacks and want to keep up with a rank 30 group, or not have your face wiped all over the floor solo in Pluto, then +melee dmg frame mods are a requirement. To have passable melee damage, means sacrificing extremely powerful mods such as power efficiency, and massive defensive stacks of armor/hp/shields. It makes no sense that someone who wants to focus primarily on melee, is giving up everything they need to get in close and stay there. Someone who wants to purely use guns is faster, more survivable, has less downtime, and several times the overall damage output, even up close - gun builds are far more effective, while taking much less effort to play. For example with my Volt, I can stack my power efficiency and duration mods, speed through several rooms, clearing them all in the time it takes for a melee player to set up a single approach. In groups, people trying to get a melee kill can go an entire map without ever getting the chance (I have my share of hate tells from killing everything too fast). Melee builds are risking everything to have a fraction of the effectiveness of gun builds. Even with a farmed-out melee build, it's far safer and more efficient to just shoot someone who's in your face, than it is to waste time swinging.

Melee attacks do not drain stamina.

Like Diablo 2 and Darkness, stamina should only be affected by acrobatics and sprinting. Having low stamina does not diminish your ability to shoot, because that wouldn't be fun, and wouldn't fit the spirit of the game. Having melee attacks expend stamina only slows the combat down. There are yakety sax moments where your ninja can't chase down kiting corpus on melee only runs, because swinging takes out a fat chunk of stamina. Players should be encouraged to get in close for more risky/stylish play. When stamina only affects melee combat, while having no bearing towards gunplay, combat is further skewed towards just shooting everything, all the time.

Melee Range upgrade adds an additional target.

Each range upgrade on a melee weapon adds an additional target that can be hit in melee. Melee weapons are already balanced through their animations. The Furax naturally hits less targets than the Scindo because you're punching instead of swinging a giant space axe in a wide arc. There's no need to artificially cap the targets.

As guns are ranked up, mods such as multishot and pierce pop up, making them far more efficient than melee weapons - both up close, and for crowd control. Even without multishot and pierce, guns such as the Gorgon, Hek and Burston naturally apply more DPS than melee ever hopes to achieve - at any range. They all hit instantly, have no startup or recovery frames, and don't leave you locked in animations where you can't dodge. Melee needs to scale in effectiveness along with guns, at least give them better crowd control as they rank up so they stay relevant.

More incentives to use melee, including resource gain.

Darkness 2 has amazing combat design. Guns are ridiculously powerful - you can easily get by just headshotting everyone with a standard pistol. Even so, players are encouraged to get in close to use melee attacks and combo , because it provides them with more resources. At melee range, you can grab someone and regain health, ammo, use them as a shield, or toss them as a projectile. Besides immediate benefits, you get twice the experience off melee kills, meaning your upgrades come in faster. Players are properly rewarded for taking risks and putting themselves in the line of fire.

In Warframe, other than the coolness factor, there's no actual gameplay reason to use melee. It leaves you far more vulnerable, has higher TTK in all situations, and gives no rewards. For starters, charge attacks should naturally build a point energy when landing a hit. There should be a way for players to regain health and shields through melee attacks and kills, decreasing downtime. These values could be affected with mods, giving players more loot variety. Players need a reason to not just mow everything down with guns.

MOVEMENT AND ACROBATICS

Acrobatic moves are melee cancellable

-High jump/ninja flip can be instantly cancelled into a ground slam attack.

-Backflip can cancel into spin attack (at least half the backflip animation must play out)

-Roll can cancel into spin attack (at least half the roll animation must play out)

Melee needs more mobility options and control, especially with the lack of precise, on-demand swings seen in The Darkness. Aside from slide, all the great looking acrobatic moves are rarely used. Having roll, ninja flip, and backflip transition into existing special moves gives them an actual gameplay function. The Arn Etina boss fight would be far more satisfying, if you could evade his knockdown kick with a backflip, and punish with a melee attack before he has the chance to spam out another.

Acrobatic moves have short evasion windows

Games like Street Fighter, Dark Souls, Monster Hunter and DmC have moves that have invincibility frames, allowing you to dodge attacks with the right timing.

Combat would be more interesting in Warframe if dodge, roll and ninja flip had short evasion windows, allowing players to use skilled timing to escape knockdown loops, and giving more options to dodge crowds of rapid firing aimbots on Pluto, instead of just sliding and strafing around cover all day.

Backflip is activated by simply pressing dodge

I've only ever seen players backflip in elevator moments, never in combat, and clunky control requirements have a lot to do with it.

Not pressing any movement keys (neutral), and pressing dodge (default V, or pressing/quickly releasing sprint) activates backflip. No need to have ADS+back+dodge, where you're pressing three things at once. Direction + dodge does the standard forward roll in that direction.

Knockdown recovery, and Tech rolls

Knockdown loops can be gamebreaking. Prepatch, the Jackal's stomp loop could keep you infinitely knocked down. If you're melee soloing Hades for a challenge, one Moa knockdown can mean a failed mission. If Arn decides to be particularly nasty, he'll keep you on the floor with kicks until you're burned alived, with absolutely nothing you can do, even when you've been spamming Rhino's invuln the entire time. Against infested, enemies have no collision. You'll have multiple Ancients charging up to you to tentacle smashing through each other, while leapers jump through the horde clawing at you with stun attacks, all clumped up as a single entity. Being stuck in 15 second knockdown loops with no player control isn't uncommon. The problem is the getup animation, where the ninja slowly rises, then idles for a second once up - players are vulnerable to further knockdown from start to finish. Unlike bosses, players have no knockdown immunity timer.

Not having player knockdown immunity timers is fine, but at least provide a skill based option to avoid loops, and give players more ways to recover once downed.

-Tech roll. When being knocked down, at exactly the frame your body touches the floor, hitting dodge+direction does a backflip or roll recovery in the direction chosen. Hitting jump does the high jump/ninja flip. Timing must be tight and skill-based.

-Knockdown recovery. If you're grounded, holding a direction rolls/backflips in that direction, rather than playing the long standup animation with the idle time at the end. You're still vulnerable to further knockdown, you just have more control over where you recover.

Transparency slider for player model

The jump-shot and aerial gun-combat animations are amazing! Unfortunately, players rarely ever make use of air combat because the player model obscures targets and often blocks the entire screen (try jumping right and doing an aimed air shot). Add a transparency slider, which adjust your model's client-side opaqueness. The transparency only kicks in during ADS and jump shots, so you can actually see targets.

Add a side roll

Pressing left or right and dodge, instantly rolls to the left/right of your crosshair. Having your character awkwardly turn to whatever direction you press and doing a forward roll often goes into the wrong direction/angle if you press dodge too early. Having a side roll that always aligns with your crosshair/camera facing increases control responsiveness and makes acrobatics more useful in combat.

GUNPLAY

When switching between primary and secondary guns, remove the holster animation. Increase the speed of the draw animation.

With rank 30 gear, I'm using my primary gun all the time. There's never, ever a reason to switch to my secondary (and I have nearly all the guns). It takes as long to switch to my secondary, as it does to reload. I have to watch my ninja leisurely put his primary on his back, then slowly pull out his secondary. Why should I ever use my secondary, when I can just reload and not gimp myself out of killing speed?

Having combat where it's optimal to use one weapon, all the time, is extremely bad in a game with as much repetition as this. Cutting down and speeding up weapon switch animations will allow players to combo between gun attacks, so they can catch a glimpse of the free-form insanity you offered in The Darkness and UT.

Reload speed mod increases draw animation speed.

Reload speed is largely useless compared to the other mods you receive through end-game farming. Have reload mods further affect the draw animation would at least allow players to pull off interesting combos, such as hitting an enemy with a Snipetron, then quickswitching to finish with a pistol.

ENERGY SYSTEM AND FRAME DIVERSITY

More skills need to break away from the 25, 50, 75, 100 mold.

Lowering Ash's smoke bomb to 35, and teleport to 25 was a great start. With rank 30 gear, his shuriken isn't worth the time it takes to throw, and feels like a 5 energy skill, if even. Frames are more distinct if you have multiple low cost skills that are more accessible, where you're using a variety of abilities more often instead of only saving up for the big one. Not every frame has to have something on par with Volt's Overload.

Skills should always stay relevant - players should be frequently making use of all of them, even in the end-game at rank 30.

More stable ways to gain energy.

Energy orbs as the only source of energy gain (besides Trinity and Energy Siphon), is unreliable, and unbalanced for teamplay. In pubs, a sniper could never see an orb, while an Excalibur or Volt dashes around the map collecting everything. In solo play, players never know when they might need energy, or when they'll receive it, so they tend to save up for their oh $%+ or I win buttons - this means most skills aren't being used, which makes all frames play the same.

Introduce more ways to gain energy in combat, especially through melee. Reward risky/stylish play with resource gains. Headshot challenges, sliding kill challenges are already tracked. Why not take this further, and have X headshot damage done, or X weapon damage done while sliding, or in the air, provide a chunk of energy? This gives players a reliable source of energy gain in all situations, from boss fights to infested stomping, something that doesn't involve sitting in a corner waiting for their energy to recharge.

Give Frames statistical differences, and altered movesets

When players buy a new frame, ultimately they're looking for a new playstyle, something that's inventive and handles uniquely. At the current prices, it's a hard sell when picking frames comes down to choosing which "I win" button you want to be using 90% of the time. I have half the frames, and feel little desire to acquire the rest, because I know they won't really offer a new game experience.

Start by giving several statistic advantages that fit the theme of the frame, make these differences visible to purchasing players. Eg. Excalibur gets +10% inherent melee base damage, Rhino has higher natural armor, Volt has +25 energy, Trinity has natural health regneration, and so on.

Most importantly, unique or altered movesets would provide the greatest source of diversity. Each frame has unique sprint acceleration values, so they actually feel different when moving (eg. Rhino starts off running slow, but burns less stamina). Many things could be altered to give frames their own distinct experience: Jump/ninja-flip height, fall speed (giving some frames more air time for aerial gunplay), roll speed, backflip speed, knockdown recover speed, invincibility/evasion windows on acrobatic moves and melee attacks.

Edited January 19, 2013 by t3st

[Sohberson]

That's a great feedback, nice. I hope devs implement anything of it

[Trancemaster]

Hello there this is a well writen post and hats off to you for puting this one up. I would never have found the time to type this wall of feedback =)

Anyhow i am a higher ranked player aswell and enjoy the game but it could see some improvments here and there to sharpen the gameplay and make a few things feel more uniq.

And i kinda like your view on things that we should keep the game as it basicly is but it needs a few tweeks to bring it to the next level. so it wont follow the other games out there. For example some people are asking for mounts and stuff and that just does not make any sense what so ever in my eyes.

But again cheers for this good post and lets hope some of the devs drops by for a read.

[Zakalwe]

Some of the best feedback I've read on the forum. Takes what we have already and suggests simple, realistic ways to make it better.

Kudos. I hope the devs read this post.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Zakalwe

[Stratos4Kamikaze]

I hope the devs read this, i agree with most of it.

[Redler]

Very great thread :)

[Enfo]

You have very similar thoughts about some of the things as i do myself. Very great thread indeed.

Hope the devs agree!

[Klenne]

Great post with some excellent suggestions which I overall agree with but just some thoughts of my own that have been buzzing around my head for a while now:

Will mostly be quoting the main topic headers to condense my reply a bit, hoping this doesn't butcher the formatting.

Allow melee attacks to be tilted up and down

If I recall correctly it was possible to hit enemies that were knocked down by crouching and then attacking with melee, but it seems that is no longer possible.

Only one capable of doing so right now is the Hades boss and that just leads to the player getting stun locked.

But as you mentioned a melee system like in Jedi Knight: Outcast would be the best solution for many of the melee hiccups in this game, as you could either slash at the ground or perform an execution on a downed enemy.

No reliance on frame +dmg mods to scale melee effectiveness

Just thinking out loud here, but what if they removed the +dmg, crit, speed, etc mods completely and have the weapons and perhaps warframes increase gradually stats wise through usage indicated with their own sort of “mastery meter”.

Keep the elemental, multi/piercing mods to specialize your weapons for certain tasks.

Melee attacks do not drain stamina.

Also going to reference the later JK (Jedi Knight) games again here since it is a great example of excellent third person melee combat.

Maybe not all melee attacks, but what if they were to introduced new attack moves which are either gap closers like the current spin, but also evaside in nature; JK's yellow stance jump attack.

Backflip is activated by simply pressing dodge

That might be a problem in certain cases, if there is like a lowered ceiling you might flip into it when a dodge roll could have given you more distance.

The Witcher 1/2 uses a similar sort of movement system, except when double tapping a direction allowed you to dodge roll in said direction, so why not implement both; shift to dodge roll and double tap to flip.

Knockdown recovery, and Tech rolls

Biggest gripe and lack off gameplay mechanic in this game.

Doesn't help either that after “recovery” animations are done you're still stuck for another second or 2 depending on where the knockback hit you (front or back).

The Tech roll and Knockdown recovery would be great additions.

Add to that a dash mechanic like that in Vindictus, where timing is of the essence to avoid attacks in a situation where a roll or a flip would not be quick enough.

Transparency slider for player model

I wouldn't mind seeing the camera pulled back a bit and given the option to have the cross-hair put in the center, that way there is less chance of obstruction and still up to the player to decide on which side the reticule is.

The game to me that had the perfect mix of transparency depending on situation with minimal model obstruction to the cross-hair, was a mod for Half-Life; The Specialists.

A game where you had tons of third person acrobatic gunplay, be it dodging, flips, dives.

All in all, this game could benefit from "copying" working features from different games to make this one of the best in its genre I've played in years.

I mean we probably wouldn't be playing this if no one had decided to do so with Doom and build upon it, but these is just my thoughts about this.

[neKroMancer]

It's a great post, best combat feedback thus far.

I agree with most of thsese points.

[ttv_Typical_Tilly]

I agree fully with the initial poster. Some of the other points mentioned from others are good as well.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Absolutely fantastic read and I fully agree with you good sir.

[Aire]

Please, someone sticky this.

Such good feedback.

[Babalenong]

Fantastic read, I want to add that class specific weapon should increase the weapon ability not the weapon type ability

e.g burston mod : reduce burst delay, increase bullet per burst, etc

[0bit]

Some great feedback here. Mad props to you OP.

[[DE]Steve]

I hope devs read this too. :)

Great notes. A lot of this is going in, in chunks, so I hope you can be patient. The energy problem has been addressed (shared now). Item specific mods are on the way and stamina changes as well. There are mods in the queue for increasin draw speed which might address some of your secondary concerns, though I think a buff on some of the secondaries is needed as well.

Some of the melee precision stuff is tricky, though totally agree with direct hits and cancels. When we were trying more precise stuff the sacrifice in speed was tough to love. We're on the same page though, and improving melee is huge for us.

[FanZeroEx]

Great post! Should be pinned.

[Sealgaire]

This man spews gold from every orifice. You probably know, but you're not just top 5, you're #2 if you exclude the cheaters, and you'll dethrone me soon enough.

I think the only issue I take is removing the ability to specialize in melee, it would be more satisfying if gun users had to focus on gunplay to be as effective as someone who's dedicated to melee. Aside from that, I think any of this that can be implemented could only improve the game.

The idea of skill based energy gathering in particular is one thing that's been thrown around and is one of my favorite ideas. You could call it focus or something and award it based on the difficulty of an action. Examples for shooting could be getting headshots, followed by sliding headshots, followed by jump headshots, with each one giving more energy than the last. This would provide a more reliable source of energy and incentivise people to play more like the badass space ninjas they are.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Sealgaire

[t3st]

Some of the melee precision stuff is tricky, though totally agree with direct hits and cancels. When we were trying more precise stuff the sacrifice in speed was tough to love. We're on the same page though, and improving melee is huge for us.

Ideally players could just look down a bit to hit enemies on the floor, but another system I've seen that offers both control speed and swing precision, is having one button for vertical combo chains, and another for horizontals. Games like Soul Calibur, Chivalry: Medieval Warfare, and Monster Hunter employ this method You can mix and match swings in a chain to adjust for the enemy's positioning. Verticals also tend to do more damage, while horizontals are easier to land.

You already have lots of vertical vs horizontal animations, too - they're all just all lumped together into one inconvenient chain ;)

The idea of skill based energy gathering in particular is one thing that's been thrown around and is one of my favorite ideas. You could call it focus or something and award it based on the difficulty of an action. Examples for shooting could be getting headshots, followed by sliding headshots, followed by jump headshots, with each one giving more energy than the last. This would provide a more reliable source of energy and incentivise people to play more like the badass space ninjas they are.

I don't know about you, but I'm no longer really playing for loot. SHMUPs are linear and repetitive, but they have rabid players that stick with a game for years, trying to get a higher score. Given the limited environment and enemies, a scoring system of some sort (along with expanded scoreboard) would help with replayability. Say you pull off an aerial Snipetron headshot after a ninja flip, the game knows and gives you a multiplied score for the kill (on top of resource gain), encouraging more fancy play. Having the game recognize cool stuff you do, and seeing score explosions is just addictive.

[Sealgaire]

I don't know about you, but I'm no longer really playing for loot. SHMUPs are linear and repetitive, but they have rabid players that stick with a game for years, trying to get a higher score. Given the limited environment and enemies, a scoring system of some sort (along with expanded scoreboard) would help with replayability. Say you pull off an aerial Snipetron headshot after a ninja flip, the game knows and gives you a multiplied score for the kill (on top of resource gain), encouraging more fancy play. Having the game recognize cool stuff you do, and seeing score explosions is just addictive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS4mTqZY25k

Oh I love me some loot, but the fact that the actual gameplay is inherently fun makes acquiring it even more satisfying. I just wish there was more to encourage the moves and combos that exist already (and hopefully those to come) to be used more frequently, either through increased difficulty or energy rewards, and ideally both. Having a more compelling way to rank players than by kill count would be great too, and hopefully is what the "skill" statistic in your profile will reflect eventually. Factoring in the difficulty of the moves and combos you perform would be good step towards that I think.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Sealgaire

[Tykero]

Entirely fantastic post. Very sound throughout.

[Tykero]

Bump.

[Neverus]

...just wow O_O this is quite amazing, my hat's down to you.

[Automatia]

I Thoroughly approve.

[DrPhill]

I cannot find a single point that I disagree with in the original post, especially the parts about melle combat changes and specialized stats for different frames.

[Zinn]

This is great stuff and I think one solution to melee precision is to make it a proper weapon. That is, you hit V or something to actually take out and use your melee weapon and then you can have horizontal swings on LB and vertical on RB, allowing combos and a greater variety of special moves (like horizontal/vertical charge attacks - horizontal for hitting groups with range upgrades, vertical for headshots that deal extra damage, for instance). I know the animations are at least halfway there already, since it can bug out and have you running around with melee in both hands.

Also, I'm a big fan of a double-tap rolls in general. Drop Shift+W and just let us double-tap W, A, S and D to roll in each direction, with holding Shift giving you a roll range and speed buff in the forwards direction. Currently, dodging is extremely difficult and I believe a double-tap solution for short rolls in the 4 basic directions could solve a lot of those problems, along with a short invincibility window á la Dark Souls.