A Civil Discourse On Moderation And The Quality Of This Community

[Lumireaver]

Very recently a topic of similar ilk was locked in General Discussion. A moderator, whose name escapes me at the moment deemed that the thread was "flamebait." A fair assessment, and a good decision. This is not an attempt to continue that thread, rather this is an attempt to address the complaints the original poster was expressing in an organized, and mannerly way. A means for us to recognize the problem or problems we may be facing, or to discuss whether or not they even amount to as much. This topic is being posted with the intent to organize potential solutions rather than to direct accusations.

 

One of the larger problems I believe the community is facing is congestion. Too many posters are posting too many topics too quickly. Among the various issues this brings about I'd imagine this also makes it very difficult for DE to sort through anything worthwhile. This means we're actively making it harder for ourselves to be heard only to later complain about how DE isn't listening to us. (I would post examples, but it's rather hard to find them because of how much I'd have to sort through...) Given the size of the community, I don't believe it's enough to ask people to search for similar topics before posting. 

 

Personally, I believe that posting rights should be limited in some way. Before you cry foul, there are a number of ways this could be done. For example, the creation of new topics everywhere outside of the Introduction, Bug Report, Off Topic, and Fan Zone forums could be a restricted to users who have already posted a given number of times. Ten, twenty, or a hundred posts after joining, people could create their own topics. New users could still post their feedback in topics on the subject which already exist. Naturally, I'd expect some resistance to this idea, but I believe the benefit of not having to sort through pages of topics complaining about the same exact thing far out weigh the temporary inconvenience of not being able to immediately post a new topic.

 

Posting new topics could also rely on moderator approval, but that would probably be an awful lot of work. (Imagine if it was your job to sort through that many posts. If you think it's ridiculous, that ought to put into perspective just how much clutter DE has to sort through.) Alternatively, the creation of new topics could also be a privilege for founders of any level, but Pay-to-Post is ridiculous and I'm only mentioning it because I'm trying to be fair and include a number of possible solutions.

 

In any case, using the search feature to find discussions you want to be a part of might actually become a thing if we couldn't simply post endless reiterations of the same post.

 

Also in addition to deleting posts and threads, it would be nice if moderators merged new topics with older ones centered around the same discussion, assuming they don't do that already.

 

Love, Lumi. :)

Edited May 27, 2013 by Lumireaver

[fishworshipper]

I believe that your initial suggestion is, indeed, a most logical one.

[Azjhoolies]

One thing DE could do is to get someone (One person for each collection of threads, I forgot the term, Section?) to sort through all of the stuff, and then forward to them anything that might have potential or some kind of use for them. That way DE can focus on those things, save time, and make sure the most useful information could be filtered directly to them. My only real concern for this idea is what the people doing the sifting would consider 'useful.' As we all have differing opinions.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Azjhoolies

[TheMalachai]

I feel that putting a post count requirement on new posts isn't the right way to go. It would limit those with valid ideas who are new to the forums, and would also force people to power post, which isn't good for anyone, really.

[MusicGamer]

One thing DE could do is to get someone (One person for each collection of threads, I forgot the term, Section?) to sort through all of the stuff, and then forward to them anything that might have potential or some kind of use for them. That way DE can focus on those things, save time, and make sure the most useful information could be filtered directly to them. My only real concern for this idea is what the people doing the sifting would consider 'useful.' As we all have differing opinions.

That's actually a decent idea.  May I expand upon it?  

 

Perhaps when the someone from DE is sifting through the topics to find stuff that's useful, they could find the most common complaints/suggestions - in addition to what they personally find is useful - and forward both categories of topics to DE so they can peruse it and discuss how to go about doing something about it (or, you know...not?)?

 

Granted, there would still the problem of "What is considered useful by the person doing the sifting?", but at least some of the topics for discussion would have a common denominator.

Edited May 28, 2013 by MusicGamer

[Drakontis]

I would not be opposed to the idea of new topic creation being limited by rank. Somebody coming on as rank 0/1 with little to no experience with the game crying about something being OP would be prevented by rank locking the privilege. Now, I'm not saying it's necessarily the only or best option, but it is one. People should have a little experience with the game before making a thread, especially inflammatory ones that result in something becoming near useless. *cough* Rhino *cough* 

[Ced23Ric]

As long as users have the option to post Bugs, regardless of rank, there is some merit to this. *rubs chin*

[Tulzscha]

I think the community/playerbase has rocketed upwards to a point where the existing mods can't handle everything in a reasonable timeframe perhaps? Consequently the thread quality plummets because of one duplicate thread after another being created, often with inane/pointless content in the initial post the effectively kills any chances of progressive discussion.

 

Case in point, this thread on the first page of General Discussion, designated as "hot":

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/53408-blades-recievers-and-f-prime-systems-such-a-joke/

 

Just by clicking on that link and reading the one-liner OP I think I killed a few thousand brain cells. That sort of thread shouldn't be allowed to go on any further and needs to be locked/deleted/merged on sight because it's rehashing a rant that's been made ad nauseam since U8. As mentioned above, garbage threads like this only make it harder for the devs to get to the worthwhile ones, and for the players, makes it harder and harder to search what they're specifically looking for.

 

I support the idea of having a set of mods, prolly 4-5, for each of the forum sections (news and info, community, improving warframe, etc)? I realize this is most likely too much to ask though. 

Edited May 28, 2013 by Tulzscha

[ORPHIEL]

Hiya Lumi Hiya Peeps : )

 

i believe this to be a very sensible solution as to be honest i would imagine the mods are players also one thing i remember for being a mod for my Guild in previous game ( Shaiya ) is that its a right pain in the buttox and markedly detracts from the joy of playing not to metion robs you of a huge chunk of playing time so therefore i appreciate and repect an individuals choice to become a moderator  in fact a think that it is most laudable that they commit there time and effort to do so

as for me it will be a cold day in hades before i become a mod again

so dont flame the mods show em some love and realise they do not control everyhting and cant solve everything

so lets all endeavor to make this a vibrant acitve and  fun community

 

lots of respect to the Devs and all those who make this game and community what it is

 

Respects

 

Orp : )

Edited May 28, 2013 by ORPHIEL

[CheeseHasLeafs]

What if those without posting privileges then start flooding the Bug Reports, Off Topic and Fan Zone forums? It would in effect more of a redistribution of traffic, rather than a prevention.

[Lumireaver]

I believe that your initial suggestion is, indeed, a most logical one.

 

Thanks. :)

 

@Azjhoolies, and MusicGamer, 

 

With regards to establishing a system of "Community Ambassadors," as a kind-of/sort-of intermediary between us and DE... that's kind of what the moderators already do... and as nifty as that sounds, I feel that the best systems are the ones that accomplish the most while requiring the least effort, however if it sounds like a good idea to current moderators and DE, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it. The "relevancy" of what needs to be reported could be objectively evaluated by the number of up-votes.

 

Really though, I don't think we're so massive that we need to add another layer just yet.

 

I feel that putting a post count requirement on new posts isn't the right way to go. It would limit those with valid ideas who are new to the forums, and would also force people to power post, which isn't good for anyone, really.

 

This would only affect the posting of new topics. We're almost two hundred and fifty thousand-strong, and at times, there have been over six thousand of us on at the same time. Not only that, but as it stands, very valid ideas have been drowned by a slurry of endless repeat-complaints. (...Which, looking at this data is rather bizarre considering there is an average of two posts for every member. ...Weird.) Further, if a person really had a game changing idea which had never been posted before, they could always PM a moderator and ask them to post it for them. How would they know to do this? Perhaps a pinned thread in the feedback forums explaining post limitations, alongside a detailed tutorial on how to use search feature, and so on.

 

I would not be opposed to the idea of new topic creation being limited by rank. Somebody coming on as rank 0/1 with little to no experience with the game crying about something being OP would be prevented by rank locking the privilege. Now, I'm not saying it's necessarily the only or best option, but it is one. People should have a little experience with the game before making a thread, especially inflammatory ones that result in something becoming near useless. *cough* Rhino *cough* 

 

As long as Introductions, the Fan Zone, and the Off Topic sub-forums remain accessible, it should be fine. They simply shouldn't be held to the same degree of moderation as the other sections, since they're more about the community than they are about beta feedback. (Also it's not like they wouldn't be able to post their feedback, it's just that all their feedback would be better organized.) All of the Bug Report sub-forums also absolutely need to be accessible to first time posters for the plain and simple reason that bugs are icky creatures which deserve nothing less than a swift and painful swatting.

 

As long as users have the option to post Bugs, regardless of rank, there is some merit to this. *rubs chin*

 

Hey, if it ends up making your job easier, it'll consequently make our experience better. :P

 

Glad I've struck an interest. 

 

I think the community/playerbase has rocketed upwards to a point where the existing mods can't handle everything in a reasonable timeframe perhaps?

 

- polite, space saving snip -

 

One thing I've noticed is that a lot of people will read a few of the "hot" threads, and effectively respond to them in their own topic, as opposed to keeping the discussion where it started. (Maybe they just didn't know the original topic existed?) I could understand if they wanted to focus on something specific and the original topic was very broad, but I feel this behavior exists for another, more attention-seeking reason... and I don't mean that in an inherently negative way either. If I'm right, all it means is that some users feel they won't be heard unless they're one of the first posters to post in a given topic. 

 

This kind of circles around and creates a vicious cycle where old topics are buried by new, redundant topics posted by users who feel that they aren't being heard, and the process repeats itself. Putting a leash on thread creation would force people to talk their time to develop their ideas so that their posts are more likely to be considered seriously and up-voted. (Assuming DE actually looks at up-votes.) If it's not to labor intensive, huge threads could have their first post mod-edited with a "table of contents" of sorts linking to highly rated posts which started new discussions. This could only apply in huge, twenty page+ monster threads, and would be for DERebecca's/DE's benefit.

 

...Or, mods could just split threads if they evolve into multiple completely separate discussions, assuming the forum software we're using can do that. (It's 2013, it really ought to be able to do that...)

 

Hiya Lumi Hiya Peeps : )

 

- polite, space saving snip - 

 

Yeah, I'd imagine it could get to be a lot of work. It seems as though transition to Open Beta probably would have come as a bit of a shock for anyone on the team without a lot of experience. Sincerely, as a part of this community which has been organized by such wonder development team, I really feel guilty when I see such... downright malicious accusations and insults being thrown without a shred of consideration. As though it reflected poorly on me, personally. In any case, I know there are sound people out there, but as Tulzscha pointed we're just totally drowned out. Hopefully something can be done.

 

What if those without posting privileges then start flooding the Bug Reports, Off Topic and Fan Zone forums? It would in effect more of a redistribution of traffic, rather than a prevention.

 

It would be a clear violation of the rules and therefore grounds for a slap on the wrist. If, in fact, all this accomplished was the redistribution of less-than-desirable traffic into a single location it would still help with organization. 

Edited May 28, 2013 by Lumireaver

[Ced23Ric]

IP Board can split, merge, move, hide, delete and edit topics, no problem. Nevertheless, it would require the 5 ComMods to read every topic and every post, to stay on top of a given topics progress and split when needed. I will be as bold as to say that that's too much to ask.

[Lumireaver]

Yeah, it kind of seemed like it would be, to be honest. I was just throwing that out there as I figured it might not be as incredibly daunting if threads weren't spawning so rapidly in general. I could be vastly underestimating the posting power of the community, however.

[Ced23Ric]

Between 9:30am and 6:30pm, I had dealt with 28 reports, read 60++ topics, handed out 7 warnings and interacted with 40ish threads. That's just me.

[Bennyworld]

Well, the locking all topics except for intros would be simply asking for spam ...

But I kind of agree on the whole 'congestion' point.

[SymphNo9]

I noticed shortly after U8 was released, a surge of new forumers appeared. Players that usually don't circulate the forums (or at least make posts), but nevertheless went on to create their own thread to get the rage off their chest, despite that many similar threads were already created.

 

So, perhaps with this proposal, future big updates where people are exposed to flaws and changes, it can be prevented by having a requirement of post counter.

[Lumireaver]

Between 9:30am and 6:30pm, I had dealt with 28 reports, read 60++ topics, handed out 7 warnings and interacted with 40ish threads. That's just me.

 

...Sweet merciful Lotus. That's nuts. Yeah, like I said earlier, the best systems are the ones that accomplish the most while requiring the least possible effort. In this case, it would be enough to just slow down traffic. 

 

Youch.

[corpseshock]

As this community grew larger and larger, the quality of it dropped. Suggestions became demands and horrible, horrible decisions were made because of that. I was pretty active in giving feedback through forums in closed beta. Now i mostly browse "Offtopic" because i have the feeling that quality threads dont get the attention they deserve because of all that spam that is caused by the shorttempered masses.

[SFkenny]

I don't think blocking posts or new threads based on post count is a very good idea. If an idea is a popular one, it will get upvoted and commented on. If it's a super critical thing like the Stealth mechanics thread, admins can sticky the most important ones.

[Uyie]

I like the suggestion of having x amount of posts before you can post in whichever section. But that may increase the number of meaningless posts, things like '+1', without adding anything extra onto the point.

 

But the popularity of the forum isn't bad. Of course it's hard for anyone or a group of people to sort through dozens of threads a day if not more, but it just proves how interested we are in the game and how we want the game to evolve. So any cap on threads or the flat out* disability to post would be bad.

 

*flat out, meaning no ability to post whatsoever, even with x amount of posts, being a founder etc

[NotaCobra]

Merging old topics and a post cap before posting new threads would be marvelous.

 

The unfathomable number of times I have seen players with a single post creating a thread (Which is that single post) to say the exact same thing that is already being said 2 threads down is just... well unfathomable.

 

And merging threads would be a good way to keep interesting debates going in identical threads without culling one.

Also having big "Farming super thread" and "Improve drop rate super thread" would clear out so much of the congestion it boggles the mind.

[LxLawliet]

-snip-

But that may increase the number of meaningless posts, things like '+1', without adding anything extra onto the point.

 

 

This could easily be prevented by activating the function for mininum characters allowed per post. Though I've seen some idjits posting 83 smilies...

 

What one could do too is to gradually unlock the forum and its sections - as in, Off-Topic being available for everyone, but General Discussion only after X amount of posts. This can be done by accumulating points (for instance, getting an upvote equals one point), and after having X points/likes, you can access more "content". I'm not saying everything has to be based on likes, but that's one of the safest ways to ensure people won't just post crap - because no one's going to upvote crap.

 

Be it as it might be, people will powerpost with such restrictions anyway.

Edited June 7, 2013 by InfinitexL

[Tulzscha]

I'm not saying everything has to be based on likes, but that's one of the safest ways to ensure people won't just post crap - because no one's going to upvote crap.

 

Um, I'd disagree. Just take a look at the hotfix threads in the Updates and Build notes section, every time a new one is released. In the first page you're guaranteed to see one-liner posts such as eloquent as "first", "second" get upvotes. It's a vicious cycle of inanity. :D

[NotaCobra]

Not to necro, but this thread is still very much relevant and the ideas presented are still ones that could, and were there more moderators, should, be implemented.

[NoShoes]

If something is to be done, it's sooner rather than later.

 

Just look at what happened to the Dota 2 Dev forums, back in 2011 it was a place where suggestions were listened to and bugs were reported with the devs interacting with the community and feedback. Fastforward to 2013 and there are literally no more dev posts outside of announcements and 9/10 topics are complaints about the most stupid things (mutes/bad teammates/russian players etc.) with the most hostile and vitriolic posters flooding the forums.

 

I'd rather this not happen to the warframe dev forum