Fix Sniper Ammo Double Dip.

[Pridesfury]

If i use a sniper ammo weapon for both mainhand and offhand its logical that they share ammo pool there are two ways this can be accomplished.

 

two straws two cups

two straws one cup

 

either way every shot you fire consumes 1 ammo reducing your total remaining ammo.

 

with two straws two cups the other weapon retains its 30 ammo supply while the fired weapon is down to 29 ammo pick ups will split ammo 5/5 across weapons (excess for one is either wasted or filled into the other cup developer choice on this really)

 

with two straws one cup either weapon reduces the pool from 60 to 59 when it fires and when you switch weapons you will still only have that 59 ammo.

 

what warframe has done is two magical straws two cups each weapon has 30 ammo and each shot consumes ammo from both cups. this causes sniper ammo to be used at a rate of 2 per shot instead of 1 per shot.

 

it makes sense that two snipers would drain your sniper ammo twice as fast but you are in actuality draining your ammo 4x as fast due to double use on double consumption.

 

Now as it is now this needs to be fixed and it should have been a priority a long time ago. but this will be much more noticeable with the multishot nerf bringing ammo consumption back into perspective. this could cause a single shot from sancti castanas to consume as much as 10% of your entire sniper ammo.

[Bobtm]

I rather enjoy the current functionality of using both a Primary and Secondary which share the same ammunition pool entirely.

 

Reason being, having Ammo Mutation on either the Primary or Secondary weapon equipped in this instance allows you to replensish ammo easily for both weapons.  Allowing you to save a mod slot on one of those weapons and have effectively endless ammunition for both of them.  This allows one to rock a fully decked out Angstrum build for instance, without sacrificing any mod slots on that weapon nor losing out on the glorious full burst of rockets.  Just a brief weapon swap and a few pickups later and you're topped off without issue.

 

Beyond my own opinion on the matter, it's not nearly as illogical or "magical" as you're making it out to be.  One has 30 rounds, either the Primary or Secondary can consume from that same 30.  Either one doing so causes the 30 to decrease at the expected rate.  Since both indeed share the same 30, running dry with either weapon is running dry with both.

 

Of course if it gets changed it gets changed, but I really do prefer the current setup as opposed to something else.

[Pridesfury]

Beyond my own opinion on the matter, it's not nearly as illogical or "magical" as you're making it out to be.  One has 30 rounds, either the Primary or Secondary can consume from that same 30.  Either one doing so causes the 30 to decrease at the expected rate.  Since both indeed share the same 30, running dry with either weapon is running dry with both.

standard sniper pool with one weapon is 62 i believe but if one was to say equip castanas suddenly dread only has 30 ammo 32 ammo vanishes completely gone. this would suggest the second cup has come into play but drinking from that cup still draws ammo from dreads cup which is where the double dip happens.

[Bobtm]

standard sniper pool with one weapon is 62 i believe but if one was to say equip castanas suddenly dread only has 30 ammo 32 ammo vanishes completely gone. this would suggest the second cup has come into play but drinking from that cup still draws ammo from dreads cup which is where the double dip happens.

 

Or, we could toss the cup analogy out the window entirely and go with something much less indirect, actually addressing the situation with the actual words that apply to the mechanics.  Bow weapons are allowed to have 72 max ammo count, they utilize the "Sniper" ammo pool.  The Castanas also use the same "Sniper" ammo pool.  They however are allowed to have 30 max ammo.

 

Since an allotted max is the measurement limiter in place, the lower limit takes precedence.  Ergo we end up defaulting to the lower capacity held by the Castanas.  In other words, entirely logical.

 

Now of course I'm not saying it's "right" or that it should or has to stay this way, having this changed for the sake of balance or for the sake of things on a mechanical level is fully sound reasoning.  But it's not anything about magically quadrupling ammo drain or any other such nonsense.  It's about defaulting to the lowest maximum capacity because that's how the mechanics currently work.

[Pridesfury]

Or, we could toss the cup analogy out the window entirely and go with something much less indirect, actually addressing the situation with the actual words that apply to the mechanics.  Bow weapons are allowed to have 72 max ammo count, they utilize the "Sniper" ammo pool.  The Castanas also use the same "Sniper" ammo pool.  They however are allowed to have 30 max ammo.

 

Since an allotted max is the measurement limiter in place, the lower limit takes precedence.  Ergo we end up defaulting to the lower capacity held by the Castanas.  In other words, entirely logical.

 

Now of course I'm not saying it's "right" or that it should or has to stay this way, having this changed for the sake of balance or for the sake of things on a mechanical level is fully sound reasoning.  But it's not anything about magically quadrupling ammo drain or any other such nonsense.  It's about defaulting to the lowest maximum capacity because that's how the mechanics currently work.

so what your saying is my ability to only hold one rock in each hand and my ability to hole 500 coins in a purse means that if im holding those two rocks in my hands i can only have 2 coins in my purse and if i throw one of those rocks a coin also flies out of my purse?  ok thats nice i suppose i have no need for the rocks then i might as well come empty handed would much rather have the 500 coins.

[Bobtm]

so what your saying is my ability to only hold one rock in each hand and my ability to hole 500 coins in a purse means that if im holding those two rocks in my hands i can only have 2 coins in my purse and if i throw one of those rocks a coin also flies out of my purse?  ok thats nice i suppose i have no need for the rocks then i might as well come empty handed would much rather have the 500 coins.

 

You need to stop needlessly complicating the mechanics of things by stacking analogies atop what's going on.  Look directly at what exactly is happening, and only at what is happening.

 

Currently speaking we're limited to the lowest max cap of a given ammunition's pool when two guns which are equipped utilize the same pool.  Trying to apply real world analogies to this won't ever cause a lick of sense, since real world doesn't have game rule logic.  To make it fit what you're trying so oddly to tie it to, we'd need to apply an arbitrary rule to the scenario.

 

Also, addressing the part underlined within your quote;  It's not and never has been a loss of two "shots" by firing one shot.  That hasn't ever been a thing.  This part of your example is entirely nonsensical.  The ammo you're pretending to lose doesn't exist.  The game prevents you from even bringning it with you, so it's not able to be pointed to and then claim you're losing additional rounds per shot.

_____________________

 

The endgoal you want, desiring the split of ammo functionality amongst Primaries and Secondaries which currently share the sniper pool, isn't a bad notion.  I personally don't agree with it, but as noted that doens't make me right.  We're at an impass there, and each argument has merit.  I won't try and bash your views on that matter, as your opinion is entirely justified.

 

However, your example is still coplete nonsense.  Drop the analogies and obscure meaningless examples.

[_Absolom_]

Or, we could toss the cup analogy out the window entirely and go with something much less indirect, actually addressing the situation with the actual words that apply to the mechanics.  Bow weapons are allowed to have 72 max ammo count, they utilize the "Sniper" ammo pool.  The Castanas also use the same "Sniper" ammo pool.  They however are allowed to have 30 max ammo.

 

Since an allotted max is the measurement limiter in place, the lower limit takes precedence.  Ergo we end up defaulting to the lower capacity held by the Castanas.  In other words, entirely logical.

 

Now of course I'm not saying it's "right" or that it should or has to stay this way, having this changed for the sake of balance or for the sake of things on a mechanical level is fully sound reasoning.  But it's not anything about magically quadrupling ammo drain or any other such nonsense.  It's about defaulting to the lowest maximum capacity because that's how the mechanics currently work.

You are defending a completely flawed decision here, and your explanation makes no sense.

If you take, say, a liter of water, split it between two glasses, then proceed to drink one glass completely empty, why would the second glass be empty as well? This is a huge design flaw. Secondary launchers need to use secondary ammo again, but with a reduced capacity. We KNOW they can tinker with the amount of reserve ammo, as they did it with the Twin Grakatas, for example.

Then again...every time a thread like this pops up, I cannot help but think:

"You see Ivan, when load rockets into bow..."

Edited September 26, 2015 by Soulswipe

[LifeNine]

Currently speaking we're limited to the lowest max cap of a given ammunition's pool when two guns which are equipped utilize the same pool.  Trying to apply real world analogies to this won't ever cause a lick of sense, since real world doesn't have game rule logic.  To make it fit what you're trying so oddly to tie it to, we'd need to apply an arbitrary rule to the scenario.

Actually, I did some testing, and from what I found, it's not limited to the lowest max cap of either weapon. It seems to be capped to the secondary's maximum ammo cap, which for the ones using special ammo: the Kulstar, the Castanas, and the Angstrum, are all 30.

 

In other words, using a bow with a maximum ammo of 72 and a special ammo secondary with a maximum ammo of 30 with only grant you 30 ammo for the mission. However, if you use the Penta, which has a maximum ammo of 20 and a special ammo secondary with a maximum ammo of 30, then you will have 30 ammo for the mission.

 

I haven't tried it with the other launchers (Ogris, Tonkor, and Torid) that has an odd number (not 72 or 30) maximum ammo cap, but I assume it will work the same way and use the secondaries maximum ammo cap. I'm currently building these weapons and I will update this when I tried it out.

 

Edit:

I checked the maximum ammo for the Ogris, Tonkor, and Torid. With a special ammo secondary equipped, they all go down to 30 maximum ammo. With the secondary, the Ogris has a maximum ammo of 20, Tonkor has a maximum ammo of 40, and the Torid has a maximum ammo of 60.

 

I.e. you might consider using a special ammo secondary if you are using the Ogris or the regular Penta. You can also equipped Trick Mag on you secondary to get 57 ammo for your gun.

Edited September 28, 2015 by LifeNine

[Pridesfury]

Actually, I did some testing, and from what I found, it's not limited to the lowest max cap of either weapon. It seems to be capped to the secondary's maximum ammo cap, which for the ones using special ammo: the Kulstar, the Castanas, and the Angstrum, are all 30.

 

In other words, using a bow with a maximum ammo of 72 and a special ammo secondary with a maximum ammo of 30 with only grant you 30 ammo for the mission. However, if you use the Penta, which has a maximum ammo of 20 and a special ammo secondary with a maximum ammo of 30, then you will have 30 ammo for the mission.

 

I haven't tried it with the other launchers (Ogris, Tonkor, and Torid) that has an odd number (not 72 or 30) maximum ammo cap, but I assume it will work the same way and use the secondaries maximum ammo cap. I'm currently building these weapons and I will update this when I tried it out.

the source of the issue is interesting and this gives some validity to the theory that this is a bug as opposed to intentional. what it doesnt explain is why it has not been addressed. as far as im concerned torpedos and arrows shouldnt mix kinda like that picture above. im all for two reserves where each one has its own ammo limit while ammo pick ups are split 50/50 between the two even if that means half of each drop is wasted if one reserve is full.

[Bobtm]

Actually, I did some testing, and from what I found, it's not limited to the lowest max cap of either weapon. It seems to be capped to the secondary's maximum ammo cap, which for the ones using special ammo: the Kulstar, the Castanas, and the Angstrum, are all 30.

 

In other words, using a bow with a maximum ammo of 72 and a special ammo secondary with a maximum ammo of 30 with only grant you 30 ammo for the mission. However, if you use the Penta, which has a maximum ammo of 20 and a special ammo secondary with a maximum ammo of 30, then you will have 30 ammo for the mission.

 

I haven't tried it with the other launchers (Ogris, Tonkor, and Torid) that has an odd number (not 72 or 30) maximum ammo cap, but I assume it will work the same way and use the secondaries maximum ammo cap. I'm currently building these weapons and I will update this when I tried it out.

 

That's interesting to know, also thanks for the correction.  I hadn't utilized this type of setup with the Penta or other explosive Primaries up to this point, so that's my bad for not having done more extensive testing up till this point.

 

Going by what you've stated it instead must make an active ammo pool check on mission load.  Since the Primary weapon is "first" it's checked and its pool is set accordingly.  Then the Secondary weapon's ammo pool is checked and, since they share the same pool, its value overwrites the initial value.

 

1. You are defending a completely flawed decision here, and your explanation makes no sense.

If you take, say, a liter of water, split it between two glasses, then proceed to drink one glass completely empty, why would the second glass be empty as well? This is a huge design flaw. Secondary launchers need to use secondary ammo again, but with a reduced capacity. We KNOW they can tinker with the amount of reserve ammo, as they did it with the Twin Grakatas, for example.

Then again...every time a thread like this pops up, I cannot help but think:

"You see Ivan, when load rockets into bow..."

 

First off, to note the point above in your quote I placed a 1. before;  Don't mistake what my stance is here, as I made clear in my initial post I only like things the way they currently are because of the following which I stated already.

 

"Reason being, having Ammo Mutation on either the Primary or Secondary weapon equipped in this instance allows you to replensish ammo easily for both weapons.  Allowing you to save a mod slot on one of those weapons and have effectively endless ammunition for both of them."

 

That's purely it, I won't claim to have any other reasoning at all for the current mechanics to remain as they are now.  Because I simply do not.  I just appreciate the unique way in which the current trait allows certain weapon mods to interact, since they share the same ammo pool.  As above I also stated that, were things to change, I'd be entirely okay with the change to the current way it works.  I simply like the current setup, but I'm not "defending it".

 

As for the actual explanation side, my logic isn't wrong.  By approaching this with the baseless assumption that there are automatically "two pools" to draw from is precisely where you and Pridesfury are going off the rails.  There aren't two pools, there's simply one and that's it.  A correct comparison if we need to make one would be the following;

• By choosing loadout set X, a player is now limited to one ammo pool between two weapons.
• The Primary weapon will be represented by the player's right hand.
• The Secondary weapon will be represented by the player's left hand.
• The pool will be represented by a bowl filled with 30 stones.

Now, given the above, if the player decides to use their Primary weapon they'll reach into the bowl and pull out one stone, then proceed to throw it.  The player then decides to utilize their Secondary weapon, so they reach into the bowl and pull out one stone, then they again throw it.  Two ammo has been pulled from the shared ammunition pool, leaving the player with with 28 remaining stones in their bowl.  This is a direct representation of what is currently happening in the game.

 

There isn't some backwards "two cups" doubled ammo consumption made up broken logic at all.  Again, while I do enjoy the current way these traits interact, I'm also okay if it changes to how standard Primary/Secondary weaponry interacts, like with any change I'll simply adjust my builds accordingly, adapt to the new norm and move along.  What I'm pointing out is how horribly misrepresented the issue is by these completely baseless and nonsensical comparisons.  Your stance of wanting the change in and of itself is entirely fine and valid enough, there's no reason to try and apply broken fake logic to the issue.

[vomder]

Just undo the launcher nerf, problem solved and everyone wins

[(XBOX)JAMEEL32]

Just undo the launcher nerf, problem solved and everyone wins

Personally I'd much rather see launchers get reduced self damage and more usability rather than just reverting back to the ridiculous 540 ammo cap. The ogris would still be bugged, worthless, and obsolete if it had a million ammo. It needs a fix.

Imo the best way to handle the issue of using two weapons drawing from the sniper ammo pool is to just keep primary and secondary sniper ammo pools separate and then only allow pickups to affect the equipped weapons ammo reserve. That way there is still a tradeoff but you never end up with halved ammo capacity on a primary.

Edited September 27, 2015 by (XB1)JAMEEL32

[(PSN)Cerata_]

Just keep the ammo pools seperate and keep their normal max capacities, but split ammo pickups between them. Problem solved.

Edited September 28, 2015 by (PS4)spider59234

[ArbitUHM]

As for the actual explanation side, my logic isn't wrong.  By approaching this with the baseless assumption that there are automatically "two pools" to draw from is precisely where you and Pridesfury are going off the rails.  There aren't two pools, there's simply one and that's it.  A correct comparison if we need to make one would be the following;

 

• By choosing loadout set X, a player is now limited to one ammo pool between two weapons.
• The Primary weapon will be represented by the player's right hand.
• The Secondary weapon will be represented by the player's left hand.
• The pool will be represented by a bowl filled with 30 stones.

I think it is a logical assumption that you would have two pools of sniper ammo to draw from if you have two sniper ammo using weapons. I think it would be generally agreed that how much ammo we can carry in this game is, roughly speaking, limited due to some sort of carrying capacity of your warframe. You get 540 primary ammo and 210 secondary ammo. If you swap out your secondary for something that uses sniper ammo, you lose your 210 secondary ammo and get 30 sniper ammo. Similarly, if you swap out your primary for a Secura Penta for example (but keep a "normal" secondary like a Lex Prime or something), you lose your 540 primary ammo and gain 30 sniper ammo. It's inconsistent that, if you swap out both, you just arbitrarily lose 30 sniper ammo.

 

To look at it another way, if I'm using a Secura Penta and Sancti Castanas, and I decide to switch my Penta to a Boltor, I'm carrying just as much sniper ammo as before but now I'm also carrying 540 primary ammo. Why do I all of a sudden have so much more capacity to carry ammo? Why couldn't that carrying capacity be used to carry another 30 sniper ammo?

 

I know this strays a bit close to a "realism" argument in a game that has space ninjas (and bow weapons drawing from the same ammo pool as a hand-thrown explosive...) but I think something basic like your ability to carry ammunition should be implemented in a manner that is at least consistent and vaguely meets your expectations of how a bag with stuff in it should work.