Proposed Solution: Diluted Prime Gear Drop Tables

[Drachyench]

As everyone already knows, the Prime Gear Drop Tables for this game are annoyingly imbalanced at the best of times and a bloated "Rotation C 1% chance" mess at their worst. This is not helped by the presence of non-Prime rewards for Endless Mission-types, such as Uncommon Fusion Cores, Credit caches, or Neural Sensors. The removal of Prime rewards for Derelict Defense / Survival is similarly not helping to reduce table dilution.

 

Furthermore - as everyone in the community also knows - the vast majority of solutions to this problem that are in effect (Vaulting) and typically proposed by the community (Make another tier of Void Keys! Add new Void missions! Throw them in Rare Crates!) are - in a word - ineffective. Rare Crates are something many players see even less than Santa the Stalker, and adding another tier of Void Keys makes the farming of Void Keys (which must be farmed before one can move on to farm the desired parts) even more tedious and table-diluted. Worse, Vaulting makes certain pieces of equipment and content inaccessible to new players outside use of the Trading channel, and even then at exuberant prices and limited availability. 

 

As such, I'd like to propose a solution to the dilution of the Prime Tables. One that I feel avoids the issues of Vaulting (prolonged removal from in-game tables and the Platinum-gouging of new players through Trading), as well as the issues of Rare Crates stuffing (no reliable mean of farming combined with excessive rarity), another tier of Void Keys (determining what makes a Tower Level 5) or fresh Void Keys in general (further diluted Endless Mission drop tables, yet more Key Farming, potential need for new Tilesets and / or Rooms).

 

Are you ready?

 

All Void Missions have a chance to drop a second reward from a unique table.

 

Properly explaining the concept requires me being verbose, so let me start off with an example first.

 

If you run a Tower I Capture Mission today, there are five rewards you can look forward to (presuming you don't find a resource cache or the like): Odanta Prime Blueprint, Paris Prime Grip, Forma Blueprint, Ankyros Prime Gauntlet, and Lex Prime Receiver. The game checks the drop table for your reward, presents you one of the above (again, in theory), and then it's done-and-done.

 

If you run a Tower I Capture Mission tomorrow, with the new system in effect, there are still five rewards you can look forward to that are guaranteed. Depending on how DE's table shuffling works, it may even be the same five items: Odanta Prime Blueprint, Paris Prime Grip, etcetera. 

 

Now, in addition to the base table and its five rewards, let's say there's a 25% chance that you will draw from a second table. This second table is made up solely of a selection of Prime Parts confiscated from some of the more bloated mission drop tables - such as Interception Wave C - or the Vaulted Prime Item list. Let's say it has four items, and use nice numbers that divide by four for their individual Drop Rate percentages (48%, 32%, 12%, and 8% in this example). After accounting for this table only having a one-in-four chance of being called per mission, the above items have a final - adjusted - drop rate of approximately 12%, 8%, 3%, and 2%.

 

Not too different from what people can already expect from missions like Exterminate IV or Rotation C in an Endless Mission-type, is it? Or what the drop rates of the unspecified components probably look like in the current system?

 

There are a number of advantages to this system:

 

+ It does the opposite of dilute the tables. By moving these Prime Items elsewhere, you (DE) can increase the percentages of the remaining Prime Items on their old tables without having to reduce the drop rate of things such as Fusion Cores, Forma / Forma Blueprints, Credit Caches, etcetera. Heck, you can possibly even increase their drop rates even further while still increasing the overall drop rates of the remaining Prime Items.

 

+ It allows for the creation of up to forty three new tables without a need to farm additional keys or create new assets, twenty one if one table is shared per Endless Mission Key, twelve if the new tables are confined to non-Sabotage non-Endless missions (Exterminate, Mobile Defense, Capture) only, and these numbers are all even looking into Derelicts as a potential recipient as well.

 

+ All mission types stand to benefit, regardless of implementation. For example, if the tables are only applied to non-Sabotage non-Endless missions, they obtain the unique draw of having a chance at multiple Prime Components (or even Prime Components and Caches / Forma at the same time) while Sabotage and Endless missions also have their drop tables pruned (meaning increased odds for their remaining items). 

 

+ The system frees a potentially enormous amount of space for use regardless of implementation. Drop the second table's chance down to 20% chance, reduce it to only two items (75% / 25% chances), restrict it to Exterminate, Capture, and Mobile Defense, don't change the pre-existing drop table? You have still created space for twenty four components so that you might either introduce new items, cycle between Vaulted items, or even just increase the odds of finding things that right now require approximately 1,000 minutes of Survival to acquire.

 

+ As highlighted above, the system is extremely modular. Add it to Endless missions, but only rolled once at the moment of extraction. Or only during certain Rotations. During all Rotations, but from a table that does / doesn't change regardless of Rotation letter. Increase the odds to 33% and add three more items. Have the percent and potential item number vary depending on the mission type. Use the second table solely for Endless missions to transplant credit and resource caches instead of relocating Prime Items (so that, for example, there's a 33% chance every Rotation to get a Credit or Fusion Core Cache in addition to a component or blueprint). Etcetera, etcetera.

 

So long as the modularity is not implemented in an outright bizarre fashion (ex: Removing all Prime components and BPs from the main drop tables into the secondary, non-guaranteed drop tables), this sort of system would enable you to significantly increase the number of Prime Items, the drop rates of Prime Items, or even both at the same time, without having to create new mission types or archive pre-existing components. 

 

Constructive feedback, DE / Community?

[p3z1]

Yeah, looks good on paper, but...

 

Knowing how weighted drop tables are, this could also apply to your second drop table

 

Example:

Table 1 - Odonata Prime BP, Scindo Prime Handle, Lex Prime receiver, Volt Prime chassis BP, Rhino Prime helmet BP

Table 2 (following your drop percentages respectively, possibly worse due to possible weighting interference) - 5x R5 cores, 3x orokin cells, 5k credit cache, loki prime systems BP

 

So yeah, not always a good idea :)

 

But hey, that's my 2c

[Ceryk]

To be perfectly honest, it's a moot point. I know that's not constructive. But this system will cease to exist in few months when Star Chart 3.0 rolls around and the Void is de-emphasized and made into nothing more than a normal tile set rather than the only place to farm Prime parts. I just don't see them putting effort into a short term change a system they're already completely revamping and have everything already planned out.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Ceryk

[Davoodoo]

You know theres no dilution right??

 

If you dont believe then i hope you at least have proof for your theory. 

 

Cause it wont take me long to prove that dilution simply doesnt exist.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Drachyench]

Yeah, looks good on paper, but...

 

Knowing how weighted drop tables are, this could also apply to your second drop table

 

Example:

Table 1 - Odonata Prime BP, Scindo Prime Handle, Lex Prime receiver, Volt Prime chassis BP, Rhino Prime helmet BP

Table 2 (following your drop percentages respectively, possibly worse due to possible weighting interference) - 5x R5 cores, 3x orokin cells, 5k credit cache, loki prime systems BP

 

So yeah, not always a good idea :)

 

But hey, that's my 2c

Without question: Barring DE significantly breaking away from precedent within-company and without-, there would still be weighting within the drop tables.

 

The beauty of the system (or at least of my likely-incomplete thinking through of it) is that even if it leaves the system exactly as weighted as it is today, it still provides the developers with additional space to work with inside the Void without making things even worse / needing to Vault even more items.

 

 

To be perfectly honest, it's a moot point. I know that's not constructive. But this system will cease to exist in few months when Star Chart 3.0 rolls around and the Void is de-emphasized and made into nothing more than a normal tile set rather than the only place to farm Prime parts. I just don't see them putting effort into a short term change a system they're already completely revamping and have everything already planned out.

Digital Extremes semi-routinely makes temporary changes to content so as to serve as an intermediary until the final product can be rolled out. So while the change would by no means be permanent, it might at least reduce some of the grumbling by players and forum members. Furthermore, and in hindsight I probably should have proposed this subject as a change to Missions in general versus Void-specific, there's nothing preventing them from using "Chance for two rewards from one mission" elsewhere in the game for non-Prime Component things.

 

 

You know theres no dilution right??

 

If you dont believe then i hope you at least have proof for your theory. 

 

Cause it wont take me long to prove that dilution simply doesnt exist.

By any chance have you looked at the stealth-change to Drop Tables in the latest update? Specifically how several tiers of Defense no longer drop Prime Parts in addition to Derelict Defense and Survival being removed from the tables outright?

[Davoodoo]

By any chance have you looked at the stealth-change to Drop Tables in the latest update? Specifically how several tiers of Defense no longer drop Prime Parts in addition to Derelict Defense and Survival being removed from the tables outright?

And link you provided proves that theres no dilution as these drop tables with only 1 prime part in them actually dont drop it that often.

 

Also theres no odd on the list yet it drops 2 new parts.

[PhoenixAlmighty]

By any chance have you looked at the stealth-change to Drop Tables in the latest update? Specifically how several tiers of Defense no longer drop Prime Parts in addition to Derelict Defense and Survival being removed from the tables outright?

ODD still drops Prime parts. That's where I got my Trin Prime blueprint. I haven't done an ODS mission since the update, but I would be very surprised (and extremely angry with DE) if they removed Prime parts from there, since it would mean that the Nova Prime systems would no longer drop from anywhere. Why those two missions no longer show up on the location list, I don't know, but I know they still drop stuff.

 

As for the "several tiers of Defense no longer drop Prime Parts" bit... the only endless mission rotations on that list that don't drop Prime parts are T1D rotations A and B and T1 Survival rotation B. I don't think the B rotations in those missions dropped anything before this update. T1D's rotation A did, I believe, but I've seen somewhere that the Dual Kamas Prime handles drop in rotation A of ODD, where previously, no Prime parts were, so DE might just have moved stuff around.

 

While I think your solution has some merit, my personal opinion is that drop table dilution would be better reduced by moving certain Prime parts out of the drop tables where they currently reside and into ones that are underpopulated or not used at all (for example, the three endless mission rotations I mentioned above, rotations A and B of ODD and ODS, and/or the other Orokin Derelict missions).

 

Edit:

 

And link you provided proves that theres no dilution as these drop tables with only 1 prime part in them actually dont drop it that often.

 

I fail to see how that proves there's no dilution. If a drop table with only one Prime part in it doesn't drop that part very often... then how is dilution not the problem?

Edited October 7, 2015 by PhoenixAlmighty

[p3z1]

Without question: Barring DE significantly breaking away from precedent within-company and without-, there would still be weighting within the drop tables.

 

The beauty of the system (or at least of my likely-incomplete thinking through of it) is that even if it leaves the system exactly as weighted as it is today, it still provides the developers with additional space to work with inside the Void without making things even worse / needing to Vault even more items.

 

So DE has more reasons to add trash in the drop tables. Now that I thought about it, imagine if this happened:

 

So your idea gets implemented.

Now DE does this to a rotation C reward table (assume T4Su)

Forma BP, Volt prime somthing, Rhino P something, Nova prime something, R5 cores, 3x orokin cells

Alt reward (your suggestion)

Forma, R5 cores, credit cache, Trinity prime something

 

So, not really that good TBH

[Davoodoo]

I fail to see how that proves there's no dilution. If a drop table with only one Prime part in it doesn't drop that part very often... then how is dilution not the problem?

Simply.

 

To dilute x% drop chance you would need to add until theres (x^-1)+1 items in drop table.

So for 8 items to dilute drop table.

Lowest drop chance would need to be 1/7 which would mean that at average players would need to run t3s rot c 7 times to get ash systems.

 

So for everyone like me who ran it 100 and got jack S#&$ there would need to be 15 guys who got it at 1st try to conclude that dilution caused me to miss the drop.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Drachyench]

Also theres no odd on the list yet it drops 2 new parts.

 

 

ODD still drops Prime parts. That's where I got my Trin Prime blueprint. I haven't done an ODS mission since the update, but I would be very surprised (and extremely angry with DE) if they removed Prime parts from there, since it would mean that the Nova Prime systems would no longer drop from anywhere. Why those two missions no longer show up on the location list, I don't know, but I know they still drop stuff.

Ah, I was unaware that there had been an issue with the official Void Drop table. Apologies in that regard for citing it as one of my examples. 

 

 

While I think your solution has some merit, my personal opinion is that drop table dilution would be better reduced by moving certain Prime parts out of the drop tables where they currently reside and into ones that are underpopulated or not used at all (for example, the three endless mission rotations I mentioned above, rotations A and B of ODD and ODS, and/or the other Orokin Derelict missions).

I can sort-of understand them not being in Rotations A and B of ODD / ODS, since their keys arguably require even less farming than Void Keys. But if DE was desperate enough for space, they could probably add 1-2 Prime Parts to Rotation C of Corpus and Grineer Survival / Interception / Defense (though I'm still confused as to the thematic explanation for multiple rewards for Defense). We know they have access to Void Towers (Void Sabotage, official cutscenes / promotional videos), sell Orokin swag under the table (The Sergeant's assassination contract background), are picking through Orokin Derelicts for anything of value (Mars description), and are otherwise equally interested in Prime stuff in general. Each faction, between Survival / Defense / Interception, could easily fit the three to four components for one Prime Item per "tier" (so six items altogether, eight if we include Nightmare as its own tier). It wouldn't be much, but it'd be enough to delay Vaulting for a cycle or three / cycle back some of the oldest Vaulted items.

 

 

So DE has more reasons to add trash in the drop tables. Now that I thought about it, imagine if this happened:

 

So your idea gets implemented.

Now DE does this to a rotation C reward table (assume T4Su)

Forma BP, Volt prime somthing, Rhino P something, Nova prime something, R5 cores, 3x orokin cells

Alt reward (your suggestion)

Forma, R5 cores, credit cache, Trinity prime something

 

So, not really that good TBH

As I said in the OP, if DE chose to implement the idea in an outright bizarre / counterproductive fashion (create a second drop table specifically to dilute the tables even further) then yes it could-and-would be problematic. But in order for that to happen (the tables to be diluted even further), someone in the office would either need to drop the ball hard enough to cause an extinction-level event, or the DE Game Design Council would have to take what could only be interpreted as hostile-action.

 

As for your second example? I… don't see any particular problem with it, without knowing the percentages? If the final - adjusted - drop rate for Trinity Prime something came out to somewhere around 2% or 3% in your example, then barring a worst-case scenario otherwise (see: Table A had the drop chance of its Prime Components dropped even further for some reason) then the worst you could expect from this solution is that you  have to farm… just as much as you do now. Only now you're getting even more Fusion Cores, Credits, and so-on (possibly even including Prime Parts) for the same amount of time farming. At least unless your example was meant to be interpreted as "Trinity Prime component was transplanted to Table 2, the majority / entirety of the space her part use to occupy was given to Cache fodder, and her new drop rate is lower than her old one", in which case we goes back to the "DE Game Designers take what could only be interpreted as hostile action towards the community" comment.

 

 

Simply.

 

To dilute x% drop chance you would need to add until theres (x^-1)+1 items in drop table.

So for 8 items to dilute drop table.

Lowest drop chance would need to be 1/7 which would mean that at average players would need to run t3s rot c 7 times to get ash systems.

 

So for everyone like me who ran it 100 and got jack S#&$ there would need to be 15 guys who got it at 1st try to conclude that dilution caused me to miss the drop.

Disregarding for a moment that your example does not account for weighting:

1) If there are eight items on the drop table, and the lowest chance for an item to drop is 1/7, then at least one of the eight items needs to be dropped either in combination with another item (a paired reward, in other words) or there's some sort of multiple-reward system already in effect as 114% > 100%.

2) I do not think dilute means what you think it does. If you dilute something, you make it thinner or weaker most typically through the addition of something. In regard to Video Games, a diluted drop table is often accomplished by actions such as increasing the number of objects competing for the same space (see: Increasing the potential drops on a table), weighting the tables so as to be favorable towards certain rewards (ex: Caches), or making aspects of the table conditional (something DE hasn't done yet, thankfully). When you're describing diluted your example seems more suited for something like "balanced" or "equalized" (which in a lot of Prime Components' cases would mean a more concentrated table).

Edited October 7, 2015 by Drachyench

[Davoodoo]

Disregarding for a moment that your example does not account for weighting:

1) If there are eight items on the drop table, and the lowest chance for an item to drop is 1/7, then at least one of the eight items needs to be dropped either in combination with another item (a paired reward, in other words) or there's some sort of multiple-reward system already in effect as 114% > 100%.

2) I do not think dilute means what you think it does. If you dilute something, you make it thinner or weaker most typically through the addition of something. In regard to Video Games, a diluted drop table is often accomplished by actions such as increasing the number of objects competing for the same space (see: Increasing the potential drops on a table), weighting the tables so as to be favorable towards certain rewards (ex: Caches), or making aspects of the table conditional (something DE hasn't done yet, thankfully). When you're describing diluted your example seems more suited for something like "balanced" or "equalized" (which in a lot of Prime Components' cases would mean a more concentrated table).

What i presented was actually proof for weighting.

 

Weighting itself becomes problem which outshines dilution.

So yeah until chances for drop are even dilution is secondary problem.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Davoodoo