Pay 2 Win Much?

[Agent_of_Change]

Lol you people are always Founders.

 

"...Now an element is not Pay to win if it can reasonably be gained through grind..." Reasonably. I did, lessee... about ten defence missions on Saturday, all to wave 25. One T1 key. I did another ten plus defences on Sunday, no keys. I've done several defences since then and still no keys.

 

I figure I've easily seen over 100 defence rewards since U8 and seen ONE key. 1% chance to drop one round of the current end-game, and it was only the first difficulty. There are two more difficulties. You can rant RNG all you like, it doesn't change the fact that many people are having no luck in getting to the Void.

 

As for adjusting plat prices, I invite you to look here and still tell me people aren't complaining about plat prices. And keep in mind, mr Hunter, that Founders packs are FAR cheaper than actually buying plat outright, and won't be available forever.

 

Additionally, you're dismissing this person's opinion because you assume he is new. He just said he's been playing since U8, not that he started then. And regardless, your statement boils down to "You're new so can't complain about plat prices". Hold up a sec there, if new people are getting the impression that platinum is stupidly expensive, that's actually as bad if not worse as it's discouraging new players from getting hooked, no more paying members. Duhh.

 

Several points here, first and most importantly i dismissed his crying because he was wrong and abusing terms that are already badly misunderstood and that serves no one.  i never referenced any implication that he is new that is your projection on my words, but if you want we can discuss "straw man attack" later.

 

Now an itemized list (lists are fun don't you think?):

 

1. Reasonable grind and RNG are hand in hand.  sometimes you are (un)lucky but your sample set is insignificant to the larger data set that actually matters.  sorry the game doesn't revolve around you, however you will notice that DE, when something is clearly out of whack, adjusts their numbers rapidly.  Because Beta is Beta... hmm you might be in need of a post about what Beta is i'm getting the feeling your not sure what it actually means... but i digress

 

2.  Yes the founders attack i could see how you might think that was relevant but while i could tell you that i have 198 hours logged in mission 10 warframes and 24 weapons every single one (except the excal prime) gained through grind and materials (including the vauban [still cooking] and frost prime) and I have only paid for credit/affinity boosts, some mod p[acks early on and some void keys cause hey i had platinum to spend, you wouldn't believe me and I'm to lazy to post pictures.  Point is the founders attack is just the refuge of an argument without substance, I have hoever personally picked up 6 void keys since friday through grind but then it might just be my week.

 

3. Again I didn't say no one was complaining or  you couldn't complain about Plat costs but you shouldn't cry about it.  Whining publicly just looks bad and is pretty pathetic, the truth is that the forum community is a tiny fraction of the games player base.  The point is the fact that prices haven't changed yet is indicative of two things either DE is happy with the revenue stream and all the complainers or in the minority or a change is in consideration but no decision has been made yet. What i can tell you decisively is the the disastisfied are NOT in tthe majority, and i can tell you that through the simple use of deductive logic:  If the majority were dissatisfied then the majority wouldn't be buying plat (and if they were they are dumb), if the majority isn't buying plat then DE isn't making money, If DE isn't making money they will change things so they are in a hurry, if DE is changing things we would see it.  No rapid change mean people are buying platy which means perceived value is acceptable by the majority at this time.  again the game doesn't revolve around you.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Agent_of_Change

[Ketec]

pay2win doesnt mean anymore the same it used to.. its not about winning.  It has become a term for companies who make fake F2P games with cash shop  thats out of balance.

Yes you  CAN get it ingame for free  - but the cap inbetween free and paid is too massive.

 

Everyone can get a ferrari - just that difference is 1 day vs 80 years.

 

Having stuff ingame is not enough - it would have to be balanced if you dare to call it a F2P game.

 

Right now its more like a Free to login and play demo  with limitations.

[Szak]

id pay for convenience than have monthly fees since ive got little time.

[Oranjeboom]

 

 now that the difficulty is increased

 

 

What are you even talkin about?Difficulty?

 

RNG upon RNG its a pathetic design to the problem " no idea how to keep players ocupied, so here, grind some mindless hours"

 

 

If keys had a reliable but difficult way to obtain i wouldnt complain. for example every 30 wave pluto def gives tier 3 key, standar...

 

I dont expect to get everything free or w/e you think. But putting 80% of the content on luck (or pay) is disgusting

[Dueler]

Sooner or Later people will get tired.

True pretty much for any game. I'm having fun right now, but whether you get tired of Warframe cause of the RNG system or cause something better comes out, it's gonna happen guys. Most games try to find a way to retain players, and forcing them to farm is not the way.

[LegendairyWarframe]

Bla, bla, bla

What are you talking about?

Something, something new players shut up? You had 198 hours?

Well, I started off as free player, I had almost 500 hours, I have 1 tier 1 key.

Something, something whining, crying?

How did you came up with these terms?

Something, something bad luck, shut up or pay up?

Man, if just one person's bad luck, then maybe;

But did you read how many players there are with bad luck?

Did you read Remory's thread?

[Agent_of_Change]

pay2win doesnt mean anymore the same it used to.. its not about winning.  It has become a term for companies who make fake F2P games with cash shop  thats out of balance.

Yes you  CAN get it ingame for free  - but the cap inbetween free and paid is too massive.

 

Everyone can get a ferrari - just that difference is 1 day vs 80 years.

 

Having stuff ingame is not enough - it would have to be balanced if you dare to call it a F2P game.

 

Right now its more like a Free to login and play demo  with limitations.

 

What are you talking about?

Something, something new players shut up? You had 198 hours?

Well, I started off as free player, I had almost 500 hours, I have 1 tier 1 key.

Something, something whining, crying?

How did you came up with these terms?

Something, something bad luck, shut up or pay up?

Man, if just one person's bad luck, then maybe;

But did you read how many players there are with bad luck?

Did you read Remory's thread?

 

Why does everyone think i'm saying things because i think people are new?  

 

I made no assumption I read the post and saw the fundamental misunderstanding.

 

you should actually read my earlier post, you might learn something.

 

also It's starting to look like I am going to have to explain 'Beta' to you people.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Agent_of_Change

[Pi_Masta]

Yes please define 'win' for this game.

Is it unlocking all levels, yep you can do that free.

Is it getting all Warframes, yep, you can do that free (with the exception of Excalibur Prime which isn't much different from normal excalibur)  (though RNG is involved for Banshee and Vauban).

Is it being able to contribute positively and significantly in the later levels, yep thats free.

 

I think you are confusing Free2Play with Everything4Free. There has to be items that are very rare, purchased only, etc.

[Ketec]

Dont bother with BETa - its  means nothign these days.

 

OPEN BETA is  full release. Its an excuse to back to if some major issues and bugs pop out.

Most games seem to stay in "open beta" for years.

[Pisirk]

you should read my earlier post, you might learn something.

 

also It's starting to look like I am going to have to explain 'Beta' to you people.

You do know that the devs can keep this game in "beta" as long as they like. Once they start making money and announced reset is not mandatory, the beta status means nothing but an excuse for them to use when things go wrong. Kinda like what you're doing.

[LegendairyWarframe]

you should actually read my earlier post, you might learn something.

 

also It's starting to look like I am going to have to explain 'Beta' to you people.

You should be reading and trying to understand other's view, instead of forcing your own view over them;

which is just disgusting.

Now, explain to me beta;

Before your start, these are player feedbacks already for the game.

Edited May 29, 2013 by JudgeN

[Hybridon]

What are you even talkin about?Difficulty?

 

RNG upon RNG its a pathetic design to the problem " no idea how to keep players ocupied, so here, grind some mindless hours"

 

 

If keys had a reliable but difficult way to obtain i wouldnt complain. for example every 30 wave pluto def gives tier 3 key, standar...

 

I dont expect to get everything free or w/e you think. But putting 80% of the content on luck (or pay) is disgusting

 

Quote a section of my post and then answer, great way to go on.

 

I meant the difficulty increased to obtain certain items that are the fresh new stuff.

 

When Banshee first came out there was a lot of rage over the system used, later on nobody cared anymore. Its just about how much you people like to flame over new content not being handed over on a plate.

 

Didnt like the system? Dont flame, come up with a better solution for a f2p game, that needs funding therefore new stuff is going to be hard to get for the first weeks, so people that are crazy about the new content will pay.

 

I remember many threads over the alert system being used for Vauban and the price for him, etc. Ends up I saw hundreds of Vaubans before the 3 parts came out on alerts, therefore a vast majority decided to pay, so the point behind complaints only affects who isnt willing to pay and isnt patient enough to wait.

 

I myself managed to only get Systems, I missed on the other alerts and Im patiently waiting to get my Vauban, even though I have more than enough plat to get him if I wanted.

[LegendairyWarframe]

I remember many threads over the alert system being used for Vauban and the price for him, etc. Ends up I saw hundreds of Vaubans before the 3 parts came out on alerts, therefore a vast majority decided to pay, so the point behind complaints only affects who isnt willing to pay and isnt patient enough to wait.

I am going to quote a section of your post, just to proof, this is is aimed at pay to play.

Now, hundreds of out over a million account registered, 29K peak player is classified majority, I don't know what is minority.

[Oranjeboom]

Quote a section of my post and then answer, great way to go on.

 

I meant the difficulty increased to obtain certain items that are the fresh new stuff.

 

When Banshee first came out there was a lot of rage over the system used, later on nobody cared anymore. Its just about how much you people like to flame over new content not being handed over on a plate.

 

Didnt like the system? Dont flame, come up with a better solution for a f2p game, that needs funding therefore new stuff is going to be hard to get for the first weeks, so people that are crazy about the new content will pay.

 

I remember many threads over the alert system being used for Vauban and the price for him, etc. Ends up I saw hundreds of Vaubans before the 3 parts came out on alerts, therefore a vast majority decided to pay, so the point behind complaints only affects who isnt willing to pay and isnt patient enough to wait.

 

I myself managed to only get Systems, I missed on the other alerts and Im patiently waiting to get my Vauban, even though I have more than enough plat to get him if I wanted.

 

 

Banshee, single frame

compared to new mods, weapons, frame, item that allows polarize and its essential to dojo buildings/weapons, new maps

 

i gave my solution, make keys reliable to obtain.

RNG furstates ppl to no end makes em quit

Edited May 29, 2013 by Oranjeboom

[Venus-Venera]

Cant understand the people who disagree with OP

Tier 3 keyes droprate is close to non existant

Tier 3 has the good loot

Tier 3 guaranteed in plat packs.

 

I feel forced to pay so i can enjoy the new items

This is terrible free to play game design.

what is hard to understand? nearly all people don't use brain at all. nothing new. 

just read some post in this topic... oh dear. in some years they will search in google for their toilet location.

 

and now back to topic: "This is terrible free to play game design.".

yes that is and we must repeat this information every day. i am sure they change this "f2p" scam to real f2p in future.

[Agent_of_Change]

You should be reading and trying to understand other's view, instead of forcing your own view over them;

which is just disgusting.

Now, explain to me beta;

Before your start, these are player feedbacks already for the game.

 

You are now advocating for a fairness bias?  Lol

 

Lets keep this simple there are not two sides to every story, I am not obligated to, in the interest of everyones feelings, waste my time and yours trying 'understand' a clearly wrong concept.  When someone is mistaken you point out the reality of the situation and move on.

 

we can get our kumbaya on and let everyone say their wrong opinion and pretend that everyone has a valid point.... or we can cut to the heart of the matter, define our terms, and understand the nature of what we are dealing with.

 

If you have complaints fine, voice them.  Suggestions? Great put'em down.

 

but start doign things like naming your thread 

"PAY 2 WIN MUCH?"

or using button pushing emotional approaches you lose legitimacy.

 

State your case cleanly and clearly and have a discussion, but it's clear this thread is becoming a whining echo chamber, so as i have stated my case, I'll be moving on.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Agent_of_Change

[Hybridon]

I am going to quote a section of your post, just to proof, this is is aimed at pay to play.

Now, hundreds of out over a million account registered, 29K peak player is classified majority, I don't know what is minority.

 

Again, I never stated pay to play, its pay for convenience.

 

Want Vauban faster? pay for it.

 

Want him for free? Wait for it.

 

Thing is you are all just not patient enough and want everything handed out.

 

This is my last post, its an endless discussion where there will be no understanding. Some think its right, others think its wrong, and so it continues endlessly. You cant get everybody happy, you cant get everybody to agree.

[LegendairyWarframe]

fuffi2milka, on 30 May 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

and now back to topic: "This is terrible free to play game design.".

yes that is and we must repeat this information every day. i am sure they change this "f2p" scam to real f2p in future.

I actually agree with this sentence.

People, DE have made up their mind already, else they wouldn't roll out such update and patch;

They not going change their mind because we talk on the forum, if there is anything you can do to catch their attention, is to take two week break from this game, then they will see that their decision is truly losing players.

[Nod_Off]

pay2win doesnt mean anymore the same it used to.. its not about winning.  It has become a term for companies who make fake F2P games with cash shop  thats out of balance.

Yes you  CAN get it ingame for free  - but the cap inbetween free and paid is too massive.

 

Everyone can get a ferrari - just that difference is 1 day vs 80 years.

 

Having stuff ingame is not enough - it would have to be balanced if you dare to call it a F2P game.

 

Right now its more like a Free to login and play demo  with limitations.

 Pay2win is still pay 2 win, you may want to interpret it differently to suit your frustrations, but that does not make you right in trying to change the definition of something.

 

Several points here, first and most importantly i dismissed his crying because he was wrong and abusing terms that are already badly misunderstood and that serves no one.  i never referenced any implication that he is new that is your projection on my words, but if you want we can discuss "straw man attack" later.

 

Now an itemized list (lists are fun don't you think?):

 

1. Reasonable grind and RNG are hand in hand.  sometimes you are (un)lucky but your sample set is insignificant to the larger data set that actually matters.  sorry the game doesn't revolve around you, however you will notice that DE, when something is clearly out of whack, adjusts their numbers rapidly.  Because Beta is Beta... hmm you might be in need of a post about what Beta is i'm getting the feeling your not sure what it actually means... but i digress

 

2.  Yes the founders attack i could see how you might think that was relevant but while i could tell you that i have 198 hours logged in mission 10 warframes and 24 weapons every single one (except the excal prime) gained through grind and materials (including the vauban [still cooking] and frost prime) and I have only paid for credit/affinity boosts, some mod p[acks early on and some void keys cause hey i had platinum to spend, you wouldn't believe me and I'm to lazy to post pictures.  Point is the founders attack is just the refuge of an argument without substance, I have hoever personally picked up 6 void keys since friday through grind but then it might just be my week.

 

3. Again I didn't say no one was complaining or  you couldn't complain about Plat costs but you shouldn't cry about it.  Whining publicly just looks bad and is pretty pathetic, the truth is that the forum community is a tiny fraction of the games player base.  The point is the fact that prices haven't changed yet is indicative of two things either DE is happy with the revenue stream and all the complainers or in the minority or a change is in consideration but no decision has been made yet. What i can tell you decisively is the the disastisfied are NOT in tthe majority, and i can tell you that through the simple use of deductive logic:  If the majority were dissatisfied then the majority wouldn't be buying plat (and if they were they are dumb), if the majority isn't buying plat then DE isn't making money, If DE isn't making money they will change things so they are in a hurry, if DE is changing things we would see it.  No rapid change mean people are buying platy which means perceived value is acceptable by the majority at this time.  again the game doesn't revolve around you.

 Again, very well put. We should be friends, because you just make sense.

 

Yes please define 'win' for this game.

Is it unlocking all levels, yep you can do that free.

Is it getting all Warframes, yep, you can do that free (with the exception of Excalibur Prime which isn't much different from normal excalibur)  (though RNG is involved for Banshee and Vauban).

Is it being able to contribute positively and significantly in the later levels, yep thats free.

 

I think you are confusing Free2Play with Everything4Free. There has to be items that are very rare, purchased only, etc.

AMEN BROTHER! You hit the nail on the head!! =D

Although some people refuse to understand facts.

[LegendairyWarframe]

Agent_of_Change, on 30 May 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

You are now advocating for a fairness bias? Lol

Lets keep this simple there are not two sides to every story, I am not obligated to, in the interest of everyones feelings, waste my time and yours trying 'understand' a clearly wrong concept. When someone is mistaken you point out the reality of the situation and move on.

we can get our kumbaya on and let everyone say their wrong opinion and pretend that everyone has a valid point.... or we can cut to the heart of the matter, define our terms, and understand the nature of what we are dealing with.

If you have complaints fine, voice them. Suggestions? Great put'em down.

but start doign things like naming your thread

"PAY 2 WIN MUCH?"

or using button pushing emotional approaches you lose legitimacy.

State your case cleanly and clearly and have a discussion, but it's clear this thread is becoming a whining echo chamber, so as i have stated my case, I'll be moving on.

What? you called new player shouldn't complain, now you saying my concept is wrong?

What concept?

How do I stating my case cleanly and clearly, when I have no idea where you came up with random stuff?

[LegendairyWarframe]

Hybridon, on 30 May 2013 - 12:37 AM, said:

Again, I never stated pay to play, its pay for convenience.

Want Vauban faster? pay for it.

Want him for free? Wait for it.

Thing is you are all just not patient enough and want everything handed out.

This is my last post, its an endless discussion where there will be no understanding. Some think its right, others think its wrong, and so it continues endlessly. You cant get everybody happy, you cant get everybody to agree.

I never said you stated this game is pay to play, I simply said the game is aimed at pay to play.

Steve said himself, free to play is the only way to push this game out to the world, because they don't have a publisher.

Pay or wait, I have not problem, I am not the one that can't afford it, nor am I the one losing players for making a decision pissing them off.

As for your impatience statement, I have 8500+ platinum sitting on my account, I can purchase almost anything if I am not patient.

So, next time, when you make a statement, get facts an proof first.

[Hybridon]

bla bla bla

 :)

[Scanation]

 For all those F2P people. You know what I do when I can't pay platinum ( SLOTS ). I sell my old stuff and replace it with new ones. There, you get to use the new items, without paying. :)  

And I do agree with the ''Pay for convenience''', because every contents of the game are free, except for cosmetic stuff.

[TheTenthDoc]

Quote a section of my post and then answer, great way to go on.

 

I meant the difficulty increased to obtain certain items that are the fresh new stuff.

 

When Banshee first came out there was a lot of rage over the system used, later on nobody cared anymore. Its just about how much you people like to flame over new content not being handed over on a plate.

 

Didnt like the system? Dont flame, come up with a better solution for a f2p game, that needs funding therefore new stuff is going to be hard to get for the first weeks, so people that are crazy about the new content will pay.

 

I remember many threads over the alert system being used for Vauban and the price for him, etc. Ends up I saw hundreds of Vaubans before the 3 parts came out on alerts, therefore a vast majority decided to pay, so the point behind complaints only affects who isnt willing to pay and isnt patient enough to wait.

 

I myself managed to only get Systems, I missed on the other alerts and Im patiently waiting to get my Vauban, even though I have more than enough plat to get him if I wanted.

There's an alternative explanation for "they got over it," people might have just left. You know, like reasonable people would. I mean, why do you think complaining about the third mission being unbeatable 90% of the time stopped before it was fixed?

Because people just stopped playing.

[IspanoLFW1]

You are now advocating for a fairness bias?  Lol

 

Lets keep this simple there are not two sides to every story, I am not obligated to, in the interest of everyones feelings, waste my time and yours trying 'understand' a clearly wrong concept.  When someone is mistaken you point out the reality of the situation and move on.

 

we can get our kumbaya on and let everyone say their wrong opinion and pretend that everyone has a valid point.... or we can cut to the heart of the matter, define our terms, and understand the nature of what we are dealing with.

 

If you have complaints fine, voice them.  Suggestions? Great put'em down.

 

but start doign things like naming your thread 

"PAY 2 WIN MUCH?"

or using button pushing emotional approaches you lose legitimacy.

 

State your case cleanly and clearly and have a discussion, but it's clear this thread is becoming a whining echo chamber, so as i have stated my case, I'll be moving on.

 

Firstly, there should be no time wasted "trying" to understand another's viewpoint. You either understand and accept their view, refuse to understand and accept their view or you prove it factually wrong. In other words, saying you cannot understand or won't even "try" to understand, when it's rather simple to do so, doesn't help your credibility much.

 

EDIT: When I say accept, I don't mean you agree with it. You just accept that they have a view that may differ from yours and if not able to be voided with facts, a valid one at that.

Edited May 29, 2013 by IspanoLFW1