Ash, The Conglomerated Rework.

[Magnulast]

I made some tweaks/changes to the text to correct a few things (always proofread, kids) and also make them clearer.

I honestly want to call this OverPowered, but it's not, it's hard to find a abusive area, except for smoke bomb on infested missions.

And honestly, shadow dash stike is useless for life strike users, well...kinda. And last but not least is the build diversity, should duration matter for all abilities? 

 

Suggestive useful passive-All enemies killed on stealth, turn into ASH.(Other passive, thrown is op, and secondary insisted passive makes no sense if mesa's pistols can't be use like that.)

 

It would look cool right?

Edited November 23, 2015 by Magnulast

[Tenedranox]

I honestly want to call this OverPowered, but it's not, it's hard to find a abusive area, except for smoke bomb on infested missions.

And honestly, shadow dash stike is useless for life strike users, well...kinda. And last but not least is the build diversity, should duration matter for all abilities? 

 

Suggestive useful passive-All enemies killed on stealth, turn into ASH.(Other passive, thrown is op, and secondary insisted passive makes no sense if mesa's pistols can't be use like that.)

 

It would look cool right?

Well, it is to note that actually the name of ash isnt his theme...kinda, its more like smoke

but it would be funny when they get killed and turn to smoke like they have been kidnapped into a "smoke dimension", wait thats weird....^^

but thx for remining, we forgot the passive, grievance do we want to use the passive of my old thread? the more ash gets hit the more he can actually dodge? running out after a certain time without damage taken

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

 grievance do we want to use the passive of my old thread? the more ash gets hit the more he can actually dodge? running out after a certain time without damage taken

I have added your suggestion, along with a few others.

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

Post Updated.

[Half-Hero]

Alrighty, time to add my 2 cents, since forever on an Ash thread.

 

1. Please, don't call it jutsu, i beg you :(

 

Animations are fine, maybe spice them up a bit. The extra frames for fancier throwing animation will only make it worse. It's role is a cheap damage ability that is fast and usable anytime. (option 2 can have the fancy animation though)

 

Option 1 is nice, gives you better scaling in the game with more damage/energy increasing over cast spam.

Option 2 would be a little tricky to implement i'd imagine, also requires quite an amount of work from DE.

 

Do you know that Shuriken used to have more utility? Do you know that we can make this ability much better with a quick tweak?

 

Just bring back the bloody stagger. Or, even better, cause a 100% blind/blast proc. This makes it VERY viable for disabling priority targets (bombard, capture targets) at a distance and gives a nice utility. Mid-air and about to get shot by a napalm? no problem, throw the shuriken. Also in practice during my long survival t3-4 runs, the 70% armour reduction with augment is barely noticeable, stripping armour completely would be much nicer.

 

Currently shuriken is so bad, i honestly believe Psychic Bolts are better. Especially with the augment.

 

2. I honestly do not see point in making Ash a more "team-oriented" frame. Instead of directly giving him team utility, i suggest giving him potential for teamplay. A good Ash on a team is the one that kills A LOT of enemies, especially dangerous ones. I wouldn't mind the idea of him being able to stagger enemies while jumping around slaughtering everything though.

 

- i wouldn't mind visuals, not a priority though

Making it throwable is not bad, but not not exactly that great either.

 

- Smoke bomb is just fine right now, the only issue is not being able to cast mid-air. A tweak for that could be: ash turns invisible without causing stagger if he is mid air.

 

Remember when DE promised that augments were supposed to be game changers for frames? That they would revamp the play style of the frame?

 

Well that's where the idea for clouds come in perfectly. You loose the ability to maneuver under invisibility freely (while being limited to area of the cloud), but if you get out of the cloud you get 3-4 sec invisibility and it resets if you enter the cloud. Also stealth dmg multiplier should be applicable on every attack and not removed on contact. (only in the cloud) Making this a perfect, "cloud of death" ability. (on top of say 90% inaccuracy inside for enemies or some kind of CC effect)

 

3. Teleport worst ability? Most hated? Nononono, most underused if anything. Probably has more casts on it than smoke bomb on my Ash. Always use that instead of the atrocious blade storm. It's a perfect single target assassination tool. When meleeing napalms gets hard, teleporting saves it so well.

 

That being said, I love the maniac dash idea. So much potential to synergize movement.

Or at least change the backflip to the manic crouch pose on teleport. The augments are fantastic. Although the damage needs to stay in any form. If they will be finishers, perhaps speed them up. That's the only reason why it is underused, it's too slow and doesn't blend in with movement well.

 

4. Well, i just hate the current blade storm and could do with a non-ultimate ability. Heck that stationary cloud idea would be better than what we have now.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Half-Hero

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

Alrighty, time to add my 2 cents, since forever on an Ash thread.

 

1. Please, don't call it jutsu, i beg you :(

 

Animations are fine, maybe spice them up a bit. The extra frames for fancier throwing animation will only make it worse. It's role is a cheap damage ability that is fast and usable anytime. (option 2 can have the fancy animation though)

 

Option 1 is nice, gives you better scaling in the game with more damage/energy increasing over cast spam.

Option 2 would be a little tricky to implement i'd imagine, also requires quite an amount of work from DE.

 

Do you know that Shuriken used to have more utility? Do you know that we can make this ability much better with a quick tweak?

 

Just bring back the bloody stagger. Or, even better, cause a 100% blind/blast proc. This makes it VERY viable for disabling priority targets (bombard, capture targets) at a distance and gives a nice utility. Mid-air and about to get shot by a napalm? no problem, throw the shuriken. Also in practice during my long survival t3-4 runs, the 70% armour reduction with augment is barely noticeable, stripping armour completely would be much nicer.

 

Currently shuriken is so bad, i honestly believe Psychic Bolts are better. Especially with the augment.

 

2. I honestly do not see point in making Ash a more "team-oriented" frame. Instead of directly giving him team utility, i suggest giving him potential for teamplay. A good Ash on a team is the one that kills A LOT of enemies, especially dangerous ones. I wouldn't mind the idea of him being able to stagger enemies while jumping around slaughtering everything though.

 

- i wouldn't mind visuals, not a priority though

Making it throwable is not bad, but not not exactly that great either.

 

- Smoke bomb is just fine right now, the only issue is not being able to cast mid-air. A tweak for that could be: ash turns invisible without causing stagger if he is mid air.

 

Remember when DE promised that augments were supposed to be game changers for frames? That they would revamp the play style of the frame?

 

Well that's where the idea for clouds come in perfectly. You loose the ability to maneuver under invisibility freely (while being limited to area of the cloud), but if you get out of the cloud you get 3-4 sec invisibility and it resets if you enter the cloud. Also stealth dmg multiplier should be applicable on every attack and not removed on contact. (only in the cloud) Making this a perfect, "cloud of death" ability. (on top of say 90% inaccuracy inside for enemies or some kind of CC effect)

 

3. Teleport worst ability? Most hated? Nononono, most underused if anything. Probably has more casts on it than smoke bomb on my Ash. Always use that instead of the atrocious blade storm. It's a perfect single target assassination tool. When meleeing napalms gets hard, teleporting saves it so well.

 

That being said, I love the maniac dash idea. So much potential to synergize movement.

Or at least change the backflip to the manic crouch pose on teleport. The augments are fantastic. Although the damage needs to stay in any form. If they will be finishers, perhaps speed them up. That's the only reason why it is underused, it's too slow and doesn't blend in with movement well.

 

4. Well, i just hate the current blade storm and could do with a non-ultimate ability. Heck that stationary cloud idea would be better than what we have now.

Okay,

 

I changed the name back to Shuriken. It does work better. The initial rename was just to emphasize that Ash would now be utilizing a wide variety of different throwing blades. Moving on.

- The cost for Shuriken would decrease with every throw, not increase. I don't know if that was clear but I changed it to be more so, now.

- I added in stacking with the armor reduction from the addition of Seeking Shuriken being a default aspect of my concept.

- Bleed proc is also reapplied (not stacked) with each consecutive hit. 

- The throwing animation would look like that of Hikou Prime, which I had written a few times, to stress the point. So, DE wouldn't really have to do that much, just copy that throwing style and incorporate it into Ash's 1st ability. Basically, over hand throws with each hand, one after the other (consecutively) but launching 3 blades per cast rather than 2 (at max level, of course).

- I don't know if the ability can be utilized while in the air, currently, but I added that in as well, just in case.

- I also added a second new augment mod.

- Concerning the stagger, I have noticed that the move does not do this anymore, but on one of the DEv streams they had talked about enemies reacting better/different to how they are hit by weapons and stagger would be one of them, so I left that out.

 

With Smoke Screen...

- I added in the capability to be utilized in mid-air, but to not be giving Ash so many perks without the corresponding downsides, he does not become invisible until he enters the cloud. So you could bullet jump into an aim glide and toss a bomb and enemies would be incapacitated within the cloud, momentarily staggered outside the cloud (and blinded with the new augment) and smoke dash into the cloud (from mid-air) to gain invisibility, all while avoiding enemy fire.

- I have heard the cloud only invisibility ideas and Dragon and I discussed that, but in truth, I'm not a fan. Ash's invisibility is so lackluster in comparison to other versions that I thought gimping it even more was just not the way. With the lingering clouds being a default capability (not an augment) it gives Ash a tad bit of team utility without having to specifically mod for it. But if you wanted to, you could use Smoke Shadow and completely spec for a team-based play. Realistically, the lingering clouds helps Ash more than the team, but having it built in makes everybody happy. To speak to the Stealth damage multiplier and the number of contacts, that is how I would have it but that requires an overhaul to stealth in and of itself and that is on DE. However that is where my Dash Strike comes into play. Since every hit will act like a 1st contact strike, it will keep the stealth damage multiplier proccing when Smoke Screen is active (on top of the innate finisher damage).

- The ability's stagger effect is still an innate aspect.

 

On the topic of Smoke Dash/Dash Strike...

- In my version (Dash Strike with examples 1&2), there is no finisher animation, just finisher damage (or finisher plus stealth if Smoke Screen is active). That is what the MKX video signifies. It would be something akin to that. In this way, Ash could just keep the flow going (running through enemies, literally) and not be hindered by clunky cut-scene type gimmicks. I don't know if that wasn't clear but I changed it to be so, anyway. The Shinobi video shows how I would like Smoke Dash to work. The fluidity, utility and speed, (just with smoke animations) which is something Ash should have been given from the start.

 

Thanks for your critique! I hope this shines some more light on our ideas.

Edited November 29, 2015 by (PS4)GR13V4NC3

[swizzybeatzjamz]

I just don't want animation/cutscenes anymore please don't DE. Regardless of how good you do the animation it will get boring after u spam it to death. I honestly don't care what they do to his 4th aa long as it isn't a spammy press 4 to win. Ash current state is boring trash imo. His smoke screen is lokis dumb cousin teleport is decent but limited. Shuriken is OK for a 1st ability I've seen worse. And bladestorm .... Oh my jeebus its like watching a terrible 80s ninja movie with a bad camera man.

Honestly my main request for bladestorm is no cutscene it takes away all player interaction

[VojnikFrost]

Don't get me wrong,  I love some of these ideas, but...

Giving Ash the ability to drop four smoke bombs at once and having any enemy that enters it take finisher damage sounds like it would change the way he plays completely.

He would be demoted to running around spamming two in the crowds of enemies. It is totally ninja-like, with the whole "Enemies can't see S#&$ as the ninjas dash around through the smoke picking them off", but I feel that during anything difficult, he would become more CC than Bad-! Assassin.

That being said, I really like many of these ideas. I'd love for him to be able to use his hidden blades as a melee.

Edited November 30, 2015 by KoherJavenal

[Magnulast]

I would like him to be more risky to use, not more viable in a mix of missions.

After all, he is offensive stealth.

[(PSN)Xurokhan]

I like it, but the smoke cloud needs tuned down a bit. Allies should only be invisible while inside of the cloud.

[Tenedranox]

Don't get me wrong,  I love some of these ideas, but...

Giving Ash the ability to drop four smoke bombs at once and having any enemy that enters it take finisher damage sounds like it would change the way he plays completely.

He would be demoted to running around spamming two in the crowds of enemies. It is totally ninja-like, with the whole "Enemies can't see S#&$ as the ninjas dash around through the smoke picking them off", but I feel that during anything difficult, he would become more CC than Bad-! Assassin.

That being said, I really like many of these ideas. I'd love for him to be able to use his hidden blades as a melee.

I agree, the damage would be too high, but i discussed this with Grievance and we will tune is a bit around, its only a bit numbertwisting/clarification

When it gets tough it would be totally overpowered if he stay a badass assasin and killing all enemies with ease, so CC is a healthy tool for him

 

I like it, but the smoke cloud needs tuned down a bit. Allies should only be invisible while inside of the cloud.

They arent, only with the augment upon entering the cloud, enemies just cant see through the smoke, so allies behind the cloud will be hidden not invisible.

[sappinmahsentry]

 

 

 

Honestly, I just wanna see what DE does. Because I don't really see a lot of things that look fun for me.

[VojnikFrost]

I freakin' love smoke dash so much. I want it.

On an unrelated yet completely related note, how about giving Ash a passive that gives enemies a reduced chance to target him (until he gets their attention by attacking), as well as increased damage from behind? I wouldn't mind him being more assassin-y without having to rely on smoke-bomb. Then again, with Smoke Dash, he's going to be a hurricane of smoke and death.

OH! That should be a thing! Cause the smoke particles he leaves behind to last longer. In his renders, there's smoke everywhere and it looks cool, but in game... he's just... a guy who's armor is too tight in the crotch.

[DE] HEAR OUR PLEAS, AND COME FORTH!

Edited December 2, 2015 by KoherJavenal

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

Post updated again to clarify issues with Smoke Screen, Smoke Dash/Dash Strike.

[(XBOX)DASHENG WUKONG]

Ash is fine i wish people would stop taking the fun out out os ash watching him own multiple people is awsome even helps out if you want take a bite of a sandwich or someting just make the animations cooler like him not multipying but instead moving that fast to kill everyone with an occassioal slow Matrix like kill to every other kill where multiplyers or mods would proc at at.

his smoke screen should be like Wukong Visually where you can move in the smokeand enemies hilighted by energy color to stealth kill even in alert mode. this mode should include a frontal stealth kill as well.  

[HunterFenrir]

As a Ash lover I found these ideas really nice. As cool as many of them are not all of them will make it as some of them makes him a tad bit OP since he's getting nearly the best of many worlds. Honestly I find Teleport fine the way it is now, only changes I'd go for is allow teleportation freely and stagger nearby units. I really like the shuriken and smokescreen idea because the smoke has been nothing but cosmetic in a way. His passives seem quite alot for one frame however... Other than that I enjoyed this, I hope to see these changes come to life some day! :D

[Tenedranox]

As a Ash lover I found these ideas really nice. As cool as many of them are not all of them will make it as some of them makes him a tad bit OP since he's getting nearly the best of many worlds. Honestly I find Teleport fine the way it is now, only changes I'd go for is allow teleportation freely and stagger nearby units. I really like the shuriken and smokescreen idea because the smoke has been nothing but cosmetic in a way. His passives seem quite alot for one frame however... Other than that I enjoyed this, I hope to see these changes come to life some day! :D

too say smth is op nowadays is a bit hard, because there are some mechanics out there that are really really strong, but i also think that DE would change some facets and will be inspired by other topics.

Freeaim teleport is a good thing, but i shouldnt be instant, otherwise he will become the fastes frame ingame by just spamming 3, u may have a look at my own topic, there is another suggestion for his third ability, i remind ya this is a conglomerated rework with all aspects we liked the most of our own threads.

The passives are only possibilites, he wont have all of them.

 

thx for ur feedback

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

 enemies hilighted by energy color to stealth kill even in alert mode. this mode should include a frontal stealth kill as well.  

Those are overall stealth mechanics of the game that DE would have to change. What we are proposing are changes/fixes to Ash within the current version of the game. Maybe with Stealth 3.0 they could be a thing and I would happily accept them.

 

I also found the video at the end (located under Blades Storm topic) in another thread. I think if you watch it for long enough, you will see something that sounds similar to what you are saying regarding the removing the splitting into clones in favor of fast, multi-hitting attacks. Check it out.

Edited December 12, 2015 by (PS4)GR13V4NC3

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

As a Ash lover I found these ideas really nice. As cool as many of them are not all of them will make it as some of them makes him a tad bit OP since he's getting nearly the best of many worlds. Honestly I find Teleport fine the way it is now, only changes I'd go for is allow teleportation freely and stagger nearby units. I really like the shuriken and smokescreen idea because the smoke has been nothing but cosmetic in a way. His passives seem quite alot for one frame however... Other than that I enjoyed this, I hope to see these changes come to life some day! :D

Where I can see your point on the OP-ness of some of the concepts, I have to remind you that it's the idea that is important here. Most of the values or anything here are merely place holders put in to give a better idea of how the abilities will work. As I said many times, DE has the overall say and will fine-tune everything to be balanced.

 

As far as some specifics on you comments:

- Both Smoke Dash & Dash Strike have built-in stagger and are free to aim, but it is very short range. Maybe its different for you cause you're on PC, but I find Teleport to be to difficult to activate in a split second and its animations are very lack luster and doesn't fit the smoke theme of Ash.

- To reiterate Dragon's comment, the listed passives are just that, a list. Only 1 would be chosen, if at all, but those are our ideas, just laid out.

 

Other than that, thanks for your input and support! :D

Edited December 12, 2015 by (PS4)GR13V4NC3

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

Post updated with additions and more clarifications.

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

Don't get me wrong,  I love some of these ideas, but...

Giving Ash the ability to drop four smoke bombs at once and having any enemy that enters it take finisher damage sounds like it would change the way he plays completely.

He would be demoted to running around spamming two in the crowds of enemies. It is totally ninja-like, with the whole "Enemies can't see S#&$ as the ninjas dash around through the smoke picking them off", but I feel that during anything difficult, he would become more CC than Bad-! Assassin.

That being said, I really like many of these ideas. I'd love for him to be able to use his hidden blades as a melee.

 

I do see your points, but I don't think that would happen. It is all about how you want to play. Ash is primarily a selfish frame and I wanted to keep him that way as much as possible all the while giving him a bit of team use so as to keep the nay sayers from complaining "Oh yay, we have an Ash in our group." The CC of the clouds does just that. If I'm not mistaken, there still isn't a highly melee oriented frame in the the game like Ash. You miss the point of combining all oh his skills for the sole purpose of dramatically increasing his own damage output.

 

i.e. Drop smoke clouds, trap enemies, shuriken their armor away, and dash through them all leaving just body parts as the smoke clears (and of course Ash smugly standing in the corner, arms folded). 

 

Ash is supposed to be a melee killer. Destroyer of small groups. Deadly, elusive and fast. And to me, those are the qualities that I have given him.

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

After watching the way some of the new revamps (Saryn and Rhino) have turned out, some of my ideas, don't seem so far-fetched. Especially in the case of the new frame, Ivara, with her 2-pronged 1st ability where a single press will rotate the type of arrow and a 2 second hold will fire the arrow. In this respect, having Ash throw a smoke bomb away from him with a hold press, doesn't seem so impossible. Also, giving Ash a toggle drain invisibility does not feel right to me. I know some have suggested this, but it would be better used with Loki (due to his high energy pool and the fact that his version is not smoke derived). That is why I feel that Ash's duration should be increased to the max duration of Loki's current skill and have Loki's changed to toggle drain. It just makes more sense.

In terms of Teleport, again, the dual function is completely viable due to the enhanced mechanics brought to the game by Ivara. That is why having the 2 sides of Smoke Dash would work and very well. So people complaining that Ash will be OP or have a kit larger than any other frame, is false. I mean, I never even mentioned Equinox. He/she technically has 7 abilities (8 if you count the different effects of metamorphosis on each form and its moves).

As this game progresses, it appears that all frames are becoming more complex and each of their abilities are becoming multi-faceted (having multiple effects innately and also combining with other abilities in the kit to enhance or create some thing new).

Edited December 29, 2015 by (PS4)GR13V4NC3

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

Thread has been further updated.

[(PSN)MrDemigod81]

May I add a passive to be added for ash my thing with him he not ninja enough I played so many stealth games and ash is our ninja and my favorite frame, but right now I feel ivara out shine him in the stealth and even stealth utility

These passives I would love to see ash have.

Passive 1 lurk: when ash is kneeling and rolling visibility reduced by LARGE margin. after performing a stealth kill or a finisher when other enemies are in range ash can kneel or roll to the next target.

Unseen (this is actually mechanic in the Tenchu stealth series, when ever the ninja kneeled low visibility was largely reduced and you could roll to reduce sound reduction) ash need more of a stealth kit then just a cheesy invisible.

Passives 2 shadow latch: ash can latch longer into walls by a large margin then other warframes

As ash is Ivara (God I hate to say it) is the better stealth frame. I would love to see ash with a stealth superior to ivara and ivara actually has ninja tactics that's in Tenchu that I wish ash had.

Edited February 1, 2016 by (PS4)BIGHEBREW

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

May I add a passive to be added for ash my thing with him he not ninja enough I played so many stealth games and ash is our ninja and my favorite frame, but right now I feel ivara out shine him in the stealth and even stealth utility

These passives I would love to see ash have.

Passive 1 lurk: when ash is kneeling and rolling visibility reduced by LARGE margin. after performing a stealth kill or a finisher when other enemies are in range ash can kneel or roll to the next target.

Unseen (this is actually mechanic in the Tenchu stealth series, when ever the ninja kneeled low visibility was largely reduced and you could roll to reduce sound reduction) ash need more of a stealth kit then just a cheesy invisible.

Passives 2 shadow latch: ash can latch longer into walls by a large margin then other warframes

As ash is Ivara (God I hate to say it) is the better stealth frame. I would love to see ash with a stealth superior to ivara and ivara actually has ninja tactics that's in Tenchu that I wish ash had.

I tend to agree with you. The newer frames, especially the stealth oriented ones, are definitely starting to outshine/outclass the older models.

While Ash does do a decently heavy damage load, he is still lacking in many areas, particularly mobility, team synergy and utility.

 

As far as your passive ideas...

I like the "Lurk" idea and I do remember the Tenchu games. I would actually just combine your two passives into one and call it "Shadow Games/Tactics."

 

I will add this suggestion to the Passives List.

 

Thank you for your ideas and support!