Melee weapons that ignore armor need balance

[herflik]

Currently there is few "blunt" type weapons in game that ignore armor of enemy (if stated correctly by players), and ignoring armor of enemy (completly) is way to overpowered in any dmg calculation you can possiblity do.

In example if you take 50 damage with ignore armor and without it, you hit 80% dmg reduction heavy-armored enemy.

The ignore armor weapon become 5 TIMES better than the other weapon, so clearly to big adventage.

Other people state that bladed weapons are better vs infested, where blunt weapons are better vs corpus and grineer, so we stick to factions rather than any actualy damage reduction stat in this case.

Putting boost vs one faction, that is already the weakest one and can be one shoot without the boost VERSUS boost to two stronger factions is completly unbalanced, uncomparable.

Its like we put 1 on one side and then 2+2 on other side. It become obvious that something need to be done in this matter.

So let the suggestions flow, since balance of game is actualy wery important aspect, unless you want everybody to run with the same weapon and same frame in your game.

Starting with few suggestions from me:

1) Since nobody really care about bonuses to infected, let bladed weapon be good vs grineer and blunt vs corpus, where neither of them is specialized in infected. It would be enemy faction bonus not ignore armor in this case. Also infected dont really need anyone to have even bigger advantage versus them, we are already mopping floor with them.

2)There are 2 defensive stats in game, armor and shield. If one weapon ignore armor, the other should ignore shield.

3) Remove the ignore armor bonus, since it make armor stat obsolate at enemy with is just waste of developer work.

Then add something like: bladed weapons +50% effect of electric and fire mods, blunt weapons +50% effect of freeze and armor piercing mods.

4)Similary as suggestion no.3, remove the ignore armor, but instead add some cool effects to the weapons.

Like bladed weapon can cause bleed, so damage over time, where blunt weapons infict bonus crush damage on each hit thta can cripple enemy limbs by chance. Blunt weapons could have great aoe on ground slam, while bladed weapons great aoe on slide attacks. Many, many more possiblities here.

[Namacyst]

1. Blunt is very effective vs grinneer... blunt and swords are similar effective vs. corpus... swords are very effective vs. infested so whats the problem?

2. I agree that swords should have a bonus vs. shields or even shield ignore

3. Just no. Melee weapons are not diverse enough right now and the devs will look into it but to remove armor ignore is the wrong approach... also there is always armor piercing mods which is very effective.

4. as is said before: devs look into melee diversity, removal of ignore armor is wrong approach

[UkyoSonoda]

My Cronus seems to do the same damage to infested and corpus when I actually look at damage numbers. Infested fodder just seems to have less health unless it's proc'ing hidden bonus numbers that I havent been noticing. The targets that reduce the damage from it from my experience are grineer however lining up the vertical slash with my cronus results in a "head shot" on them where their armor doesn't seem to apply. However since charge attacks with a sword are horizontal at about waist level the charge attacks aren't likely to ever score this headshot.

[CrystalRibbon]

i agree with the unbalance here,.the way the things are, blunt is already powerful by adding ignore armor and very few drawbacks as light armored enemies such as infested can easily be taken down by any type of weapon.. even bladed weapons having problem taking down ancients fast. And yes bladed weapon only being only good against infested and few corpus while blunt is good againt Two very difficult factions as both of them have armor, wheres the balance? x.x

But dont want the idea of removing the armor mechanics, it adds a variety to the game,aside from that, those are nice ideas :3, but adding elemental effects only to the types of weapons, nope .. well maybe for some special weapons such as the Plasma sword and Heat Sword, a little boost to element damge, thus separating plasma with the dark sword for sharing the same stats :3

Balancing melee weapons around those will do good i think, the game need variety to survive :3

Edited January 20, 2013 by CrystalRibbon

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I'd like it if blades ignored shields.

[UkyoSonoda]

Also keep in mind they're working on new tile sets for levels and new environments. Could also lead to new enemy types possibly a new one that is highly resistant to blunt damage?

[Tetsmeha]

I don't think armor ignore should be removed. It's fine as is, and should have the other non armor pierce weapons be up to par in terms of damage and niche effects.

[Cathulhu]

Well, the weapons that do ignore armor have their downsides as well.

Fragor is slow and tends to miss targets that are very, very close.

Furax while being fast needs you to be very close to the target, you also need to aim better due to small hit cone.

Bolto (only non-melee weapon that does ignore armor) fires slow projectiles and cannot do critical damage.

Haven't used Bo, but it looks like a bad Fragor on paper.

[Vashramire]

Armor piercing isn't overpowered. It excels at helping eliminate 1 faction type, Grineer. So far there are only 3 weapons with it also. Bo, Furax, and Fragor. Pretty much no one uses the Bo, I see some people with Furax but they rarely seem to melee, and I see way more Scindo than Fragor. 2 of them you can straight up purchase and build mats for Scindo and Fragor are the same. If something was OP or clearly superior (like Gorgon and Hek) wouldn't everyone be using them? It's risky getting up close to Grineer to melee them and if you choose to specialize in dealing with them in melee then you should be rewarded by feeling like you do damage to them. My Cronus is a more effective weapon than my Fragor. It deals with Corpus and Infected very well, but I like being able to actually damage Grineer even though it's not very good at Infected or shielded Corpus.

[Namacyst]

I use 2 melee weapons. Fragor for obvious reasons (huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge hammer!!!!) and the Bo. But why i use Bo is my secret. Whoever tries it with a specific mod type... knows :D

[Tykero]

I use 2 melee weapons. Fragor for obvious reasons (huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge hammer!!!!) and the Bo. But why i use Bo is my secret. Whoever tries it with a specific mod type... knows :D

This is a beta, there's no need to be coy.

[Kyuzo]

do they both ignore full armor? the hammer and the axe? so putting armor pen mods on them would be pointless right?

[antimab-EGT-]

In my opinion Sharp weapons needs a buff against heavy infested ....a big buff against them (2-5 Charged hits for one heavy Infested ...is just to much)

Armor ignore should be more something like 75% armor ignore

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Bolto (only non-melee weapon that does ignore armor) fires slow projectiles and cannot do critical damage.

Haven't used Bo, but it looks like a bad Fragor on paper.

Then how do you explain the crit damage mod I just got for a bolto?

I know Bo is multitarget. Is the Fragor?

[Namacyst]

Okay.. don't be coy you say. Here is it then.. the ugly truth about the Bo:

Bo Hits up to 3 Targets normal hit or charged (like dual skana, only Scindo and Fragor hit more)

Bo ignores Armor (like Furax and Fragor)

Bo is fast as a Sword or Furax (charge attack is very fast unlike Fragor)

Bo staggers normal mobs always (except moa, shielded enemys and the likes)

Bo jump attack knocks down (works on bosses, Elites, normal mobs)

Bo has highest reach (besides Fragor)

compare that to other melee weapons and you see that the only downside may be the 25 normal / 75 charge damage

I love the Bo and would not trade it agains all the Swords in the world.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Namacyst

[Mockeryangel]

I want a new staff that's like Cronus compared to Skana, but Bo seems balanced to me I don't know about the fists and hammer though.

[t3st]

Okay.. don't be coy you say. Here is it then.. the ugly truth about the Bo:

Bo Hits up to 3 Targets normal hit or charged (like dual skana, only Scindo and Fragor hit more)

Bo ignores Armor (like Furax and Fragor)

Bo is fast as a Sword or Furax (charge attack is very fast unlike Fragor)

Bo staggers normal mobs always (except moa, shielded enemys and the likes)

Bo jump attack knocks down (works on bosses, Elites, normal mobs)

Bo has highest reach (besides Fragor)

compare that to other melee weapons and you see that the only downside may be the 25 normal / 75 charge damage

I love the Bo and would not trade it agains all the Swords in the world.

Bo doesn't stagger anything except for regular mobs, and if you're not oneshotting Pluto mobs with regular attacks, why even bother swinging? Rank 30 guns kill in a fraction of the time melee weapons do, at any range including melee.

With end-game melee being as weak as it is compared to gunplay, I don't see how nerfing them in any way is an option.

If anything, bladed weapons need to be buffed with partial armor piercing damage. Plasma sword should have a godly slam attack on direct hits that ignores armore, and should partially melt through armor on regular swings, for example.

Have more interesting game effects to make melee weapons viable when unmodded. Eg. Swords have more defensive ability than large two-handers. You get a parry/reflect move that has recovery frames, so you can actually block an incoming attack. Add short invinciblity frame windows to sword attacks, so it acts as a riposte where you're defending a hit and cutting at the same time. Or simply boost player armor during certain frames and attacks (eg. last slash in a combo has player armor, and armor piercing properties).

Edited January 21, 2013 by t3st

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Just gonna point out that if you could deflect incoming shots by timing and aiming (would have to be added) your swings with your sword, I think that could alone be sufficient.

[Tykero]

Unreal Championship 2 had a reflect ability on the melee weapons, and it absolutely ruled.

Reflecting a sniper rifle's bullet into a headshot was awesome. Reflecting a rocket into your opponent's face was awesome.

Reflecting is awesome.

[BastyTHz]

need buff for slaing weapons it cant hit the weak point and bosses get new annoyed ability, still gonna nerf weapons ? mods are on luck

what is needed balance is mob rate per player

ho yeah melee xp now is damn low so .. its hard to leveling them

Edited January 21, 2013 by BastyTHz

[MuffinMonster]

Armor ignore is compleatly broken. Compare Fragor and Scindo. Same stats except Fragor ignores armor. Downside? None. If you got Fragor you are set against all 3 factions. If you get Scindo... Well, go farm Themisto then. And people who say Scindo is good against infested... All big infested like Anciept corruptors and healers are armored targets. Plus if you are going melee you will 1shot normal infested anyway, so there is no real penalty for having Fragor (did i mention it also hits multiple enemys ?) They really need to reconsider armor ignore since it's more OP then multishot mods. Giving something like 25% or 50 % is huge in itself but 100% ? thats just BS.

[ZephyrFlow]

Removing "Armor Ignore" mod is like wielding a kitchen knife that looks like a sword, you can cut through something but not everything.

And besides, isn't the purpose of swords here is to ignore armor and cut through flesh like butter? Plus, some of the swords look like a katana! Have you ever seen a katana that can't cut through something?

[KGeddon]

Removing "Armor Ignore" mod is like wielding a kitchen knife that looks like a sword, you can cut through something but not everything.

And besides, isn't the purpose of swords here is to ignore armor and cut through flesh like butter? Plus, some of the swords look like a katana! Have you ever seen a katana that can't cut through something?

Katana don't slice through metal armor. They actually don't slice through flesh as easily as you would think(mostly to do with those bone things inside the meatbags).

It's very hard to aim a melee strike currently. You can hit a specific mob, but you can't hit him in the face/foot easily. This makes Grineer in general(All grineer except melee are armored. Heck, even their heads are armored, but their heads have no flat reduction like their bodies), and ancients(who have a MASSIVE flat reduction on their bodies) hard to fight with non-armor ignoring melee.

I just run a bo staff, but I feel like the Star Wars kid. I hit the floow, the ceiling, doors, enemies, everything. I hit reinforced glass(Hmmm, where's the nearest control terminal) often. I hear hits going off like crazy, and most of them aren't enemies

[muvoxi]

NO GODDAMNIT. Stop attacking armor ignore and blunt weapons. Dont just think about it stat-wise, think how blunt weapons weapons would really work. Since they tend to be extremely heavy, hitting the persons armor slams the whole armor towards the wearer. Its only logical that weapons like furax and fragor ignore armor. Besides, even if they ignore amor, they're pretty mutch S#&$ againt bosses, since they tend to have imba-regenerating-shields. And i think that since swords and scindo get a great bonus towards infected, it in pretty good balance.

[Kyuzo]

i used the axe last night and found i wasn't killing noob mobs any easier than using the basic sword.. the jump E doesn't do much damage and kinda feels like it takes just as long as a sword with just mashing E to kill them instead of charge up attack should i of chose the hammer instead?