Datamined Mission Rewards Are Bad. If True, Please Change Them.

[Kyrkitao]

Edit: Post from the general forums I got this from: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/56949-void-drop-rates-void-keys-drop-rates-void-key-pack-drop-rates/

First: All credit to whomever did this. Link provided the data here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1fic8o/mission_rewards_drop_tables/

"How to get keys:

- Capture missions (any)

- Raid missions (any)

- Defense missions (any) - depends on wave level

- Shop

The way defense missions work is that rewards are bassed on mobs' level in 5/10/15/... waves. Depending on level it assigns it a tier. I don't know what the thresholds are at the moment.

Below is a list of all the rewards you can get depending on mission type. Note that capture, raid and intel (spy?) missions aren't based on level.

Duplicate entries aren't a mistake on my part.

Drop tables:"

CAPTURE & RAID

Ammo Drum: 7.37%

Banshee Chassis Blueprint: 7.37%

Fast Deflection: 8.43%

Fast Deflection: 8.43%

Fast Hands: 8.43%

Large Health Restore: 8.43%

Magazine Warp: 8.43%

Molten Impact: 0.17%

North Wind: 0.17%

Omni Ammo Restore: 0.17%

Orokin Tier 1 Extermination Key: 0.17%

Orokin Tier 1 Raid Key: 0.17%

Orokin Tier 2 Extermination Key: 0.17%

Orokin Tier 2 Raid Key: 0.17%

Orokin Tier 3 Extermination Key: 0.17%

Pressure Point: 0.17%

Quick Rest: 8.43%

Quickdraw: 8.43%

Rush: 7.37%

Shocking Touch: 0.17%

Stretch: 0.17%

Trick Mag: 8.43%

Vitality: 0.17%

Vitality: 8.43%

INTEL

Ammo Drum: 7.37%

Banshee Systems Blueprint: 7.37%

Fast Deflection: 8.43%

Fast Deflection: 8.43%

Fast Hands: 8.43%

Large Health Restore: 8.43%

Magazine Warp: 8.43%

Molten Impact: 0.17%

North Wind: 0.17%

Omni Ammo Restore: 0.17%

Orokin Tier 1 Extermination Key: 0.17%

Orokin Tier 1 Raid Key: 0.17%

Orokin Tier 2 Extermination Key: 0.17%

Orokin Tier 2 Raid Key: 0.17%

Orokin Tier 3 Extermination Key: 0.17%

Pressure Point: 0.17%

Quick Rest: 8.43%

Quickdraw: 8.43%

Rush: 7.37%

Shocking Touch: 0.17%

Stretch: 0.17%

Trick Mag: 8.43%

Vitality: 0.17%

Vitality: 8.43%

DEFENSE

Tier 1:

Ammo Drum: 4.42%

Cipher: 6.32%

Fast Deflection: 6.32%

Fast Deflection: 6.32%

Fast Hands: 4.42%

Large Health Restore: 6.32%

Magazine Warp: 6.32%

Omni Ammo Restore: 1.01%

Orokin Tier 1 Extermination Key: 4.42%

Orokin Tier 1 Raid Key: 4.42%

Pistol Ammo Restore: 6.32%

Pressure Point: 1.01%

Quick Rest: 6.32%

Rifle Ammo Restore: 6.32%

Rush: 4.42%

Shotgun Ammo Restore: 6.32%

Sniper Ammo Restore: 6.32%

Trick Mag: 6.32%

Vitality: 6.32%

Tier 2:

Banshee Systems Blueprint: 1.01%

Blunderbuss: 8.43%

Fast Hands: 2.46%

Fury: 1.01%

Hornet Strike: 2.46%

Metal Auger: 2.46%

No Return: 8.43%

Orokin Tier 2 Extermination Key: 2.46%

Orokin Tier 2 Raid Key: 2.46%

Piercing Hit: 2.46%

Pistol Gambit: 8.43%

Point Blank: 2.46%

Point Strike: 8.43%

Pressure Point: 8.43%

Ravage: 8.43%

Reflex Coil: 2.46%

Serration: 2.46%

Speed Trigger: 8.43%

Target Cracker: 8.43%

Vital Sense: 8.43%

Tier 3:

Banshee Chassis Blueprint: 0.15%

Banshee Helmet Blueprint: 3.16%

Banshee Systems Blueprint: 3.16%

Barrel Diffusion: 0.15%

Convulsion: 3.16%

Cryo Rounds: 0.15%

Deep Freeze: 0.15%

Enemy Sense: 0.15%

Enemy Sense: 3.16%

Focus: 3.16%

Heated Charge: 18.97%

Hell's Chamber: 0.15%

Hellfire: 18.97%

Hellfire: 18.97%

North Wind: 0.15%

North Wind: 0.15%

Orokin Tier 3 Extermination Key: 0.15%

Redirection: 3.16%

Rush: 0.15%

Shocking Touch: 0.15%

Split Chamber: 0.15%

Stormbringer: 3.16%

Streamline: 18.97%

Stretch: 0.15%

OROKIN

Tier 1:

Forma Blueprint: 0.67%

Latron Prime Barrel: 11%

Latron Prime Blueprint: 25.3%

Latron Prime Receiver: 0.67%

Latron Prime Stock: 25.3%

Scythe Blade: 0.67%

Scythe Blueprint: 11%

Sycthe Handle: 25.3%

Tier 2:

Forma Blueprint: 12.65%

Forma: 0.5%

Frost Prime Blueprint: 0.5%

Frost Prime Chassis Blueprint: 12.65%

Frost Prime Helmet Blueprint: 12.65%

Frost Prime Systems Blueprint: 7.37%

Latron Prime Barrel: 7.37%

Latron Prime Blueprint: 12.65%

Latron Prime Receiver: 0.5%

Latron Prime Stock: 12.65%

Scythe Blade: 0.5%

Scythe Blueprint: 7.37%

Sycthe Handle: 12.65%

Tier 3:

Forma Blueprint: 12.65%

Forma: 2.01%

Frost Prime Blueprint: 7.37%

Frost Prime Chassis Blueprint: 12.65%

Frost Prime Helmet Blueprint: 12.65%

Frost Prime Systems Blueprint: 7.37%

Latron Prime Blueprint: 12.65%

Latron Prime Receiver: 12.65%

Scythe Blade: 12.65%

Scythe Blueprint: 7.37%

VOID KEY PACK:

First key:

Orokin Tier 1 Extermination Key: 47.39%

Orokin Tier 1 Raid Key: 47.39%

Orokin Tier 2 Extermination Key: 2.37%

Orokin Tier 2 Raid Key: 2.37%

Orokin Tier 3 Extermination Key: 0.47%

Next 3 keys:

Orokin Tier 1 Extermination Key: 39.22%

Orokin Tier 1 Raid Key: 39.22%

Orokin Tier 2 Extermination Key: 9.8%

Orokin Tier 2 Raid Key: 9.8%

Orokin Tier 3 Extermination Key: 1.96%

Last key:

Orokin Tier 3 Extermination Key: 100%

The DE loot system appears to use a 76 Common/22 uncommon/2% rare model. They create loot pools and then the fill them with things to drop. The percent chance of the loot pool is as listed above, so the actual probability of having any item in it is further reduced (this explains why receivers and blades are RARER in T2 keys than T1 keys; there's more junk in the pool).

Change your system from a pool system to a flat independent chance system. This allows you to directly control rates so that you can achieve a better balance. If you're unwilling to do that, you MUST reduce some of the pool bloat in some of the pools. A particularly offensive instance is Tier 3 void keys; they are rare in tier 3 defense missions. A 0.15% chance to drop means there are 1.5 void keys in 1000 rewards. I also suggest putting T2 keys in the uncommon pool for the T3 defense rewards (and moving some of the uncommon pool to the common pool so as to dilute the 4 items currently in it). Alternatively, you can create different T3 defense pools for different planets so that you can eliminate some of these items from some of the pools.

Additionally, T3 keys are more common in your key packs than uncommon keys. This seems... wrong.

Failure to rectify the 1.5 in 1000 chance of getting a T3 key will make U8 look like a naked cash grab; Buy keys or spend hundreds/thousands of hours farming for those two weapons (and maybe a frame).

Edit: Also, is it too much to ask that we be given these values? If they're going to be datamined, is there a point to hiding them?

Specific Suggestions for pool reduction:

Remove all common mods from rare and uncommon pools (e.g. Vitality in Capture and Raid) and remove all duplicates.

DEFENSE

Tier 1:

Common (6.91%): Cipher, Pistol Ammo Box, Shotgun Ammo Box, Rifle Ammo Box, Sniper Ammo Box, Fast Deflection, Large Health Restore, Quick Rest, Trick Mag, Redirection, Vitality

Uncommon (3.66%): Cryo Rounds, Deep Freeze, North Wind, Orokin Tier 1 Extermination, Orokin Tier 1 Raid, Rush

Rare (0.4%): Omni Ammo Restore, Flow, Streamline, Orokin Tier 2 Extermination, Orokin Tier 2 Raid

Tier 2:

Common (6.9%): Blunderbuss, No Return, Pistol Gambit, Point Strike, Pressure Point, Ravage, Speed Trigger, Target Cracker, Vital Sense, Metal Augur, Piercing Hit

Uncommon (3.14%): Hornet Strike, Serration, Point Blank, Orokin Tier 2 Extermination, Orokin Tier 2 Raid, Reflex Coil

Banshee Systems Blueprint: 1.01%

Rare (0.4%): Banshee Systems Blueprints, Orokin Tier 3 Extermination, Orokin Tier 3 Raid, Focus, Continuity

Tier 3:

Common (6.9%): Banshee Helmet Blueprint, Banshee Systems Blueprint, Hellfire, Heated Charge, Streamline, Incendiary Coat, Shocking Touch, Charged Shell, Convulsion, Stormbringer, Flow

Uncommon (3.14%): Barrel Diffusion, Banshee Chassis Blueprint, Enemy Sense, T2 Raid Key, T2 Exterminate Key, Split chamber, Hell's Chamber

Rare (.5-1.5%): Orokin T3 Extermination Key, [A mod or two that changes over time but is generally rare, like Master Thief, Sanctuary, or Thunderbolt]

N

Edited June 2, 2013 by Kyrkitao

[JamnikPucek]

lol quoting a random reddit post, without source or methodology. 

 

Seems legit to me!

Edited June 2, 2013 by JamnikPucek

[alphaMinus]

lol quoting a random reddit post, without source or methodology. 

 

Seems legit to me!

 

Good point. It would be great if we could know for a fact these are legit, I could rage over actual numbers. Until then I think it is just another reason to create drama and tension in the community.

[Mainabi]

gg you can't get flow from defense map

gg you can't get t3 raid from void key pack

[Keetsune]

lol quoting a random reddit post, without source or methodology. 

Agree with that but that's numbers fit in my grind experience since U8 ... and i farm a lot.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Keetsune

[NotaCobra]

These tables make no sense.

a) you don't get mods as mission rewards, you pick them up during the mission. I've been told that the "Daily win bonus" is a mod, but I'm not sure if it's true.

b) You don't get "omni ammo box" Ever during missions, period. Not for the reward, not as a drop during the level, nothing. It's exclusively a reward for Defence or the daily login (Aside from being purchased of course)

 

 

It makes me curious as to the validity of anything.

Edited June 2, 2013 by NotaCobra

[Nerokerubina]

W-we swear it's RNG!

 

-DE

[thatsleepyguy]

a) you don't get mods as mission rewards

b) You don't get "omni ammo box" Ever during missions, period. Not for the reward, not as a drop during the level, nothing.

Do you make stuff up all the time or do you just not play the game?

[Meepsauce]

People asserting these values.

People asserting these values are fake.

50:50

 

Thread will defend DE unless proof is specifically given for datamined values despite the fact datamining was 100% accurate for clan weapons.

 

I'd say these values are accurate simply because we have more evidence on the side of them being accurate than them not.

Going with the side that's proven itself once before as opposed to the developers that couldn't even deliver weapons that weren't placeholders yet were happy to take money for rush building to get unfinished content faster.

 

Also, you can get mods from missions. I remember getting mods for my mercury farming a few updates ago. Just because these are potential tables does not mean their drops are actively enabled for missions.

 

As for omni ammo boxes, you are wrong. So wrong.

http://puu.sh/36HMo/d54192133d.jpg

I certainly didn't pay platinum for that, got it from a defense.

 

Why are people so quick to defend DE? They make mistakes. They admit mistakes they're called out on.

If nobody had complained about the Receiver rate, if a key exploit hadn't existed to project the hideous numbers, how much money do you think they would have received before this was noticed legitimately?

 

Honestly. No more words.

[JamnikPucek]

Good point. It would be great if we could know for a fact these are legit, I could rage over actual numbers. Until then I think it is just another reason to create drama and tension in the community.

 

Exactly this. To expand on my rather short response, any data like this pretty much needs to follow the scientific method of presenting data, which means that it must (in a very short version:)

 

- Explain how the numbers have been acquired. In detail. Their source, the method used.

- The data must be actually tested to see if it is correct.

- Both the data and tests must be available for replication and retesting. This means that anyone has to be able to both access said data and repeat its experimental testing.

 

The fact that this comes from reddit makes me even more suspicious considering how much of a trashcan that place can sometimes be, but thats beyond the point. I'd rather not go on a rant about the strengths and weaknesses of reddit. As such it just looks like someone spewed out data form somewhere, called it datamining and called it a day. Instant upvotes!

 

This is not even mentioning the fact that typically, loot logic is server-side, not client-side, but that is not necessarily a rule so it might actually be possible to mine them out. Considering WF uses P2P hosting, it would actually make sense that the loot tables are stored locally. I doubt they are kept in a neat percentage based format, so I'd like to see how this was parsed as well.

 

 

Agree with that but that's numbers fit in my grind experience since U8 ... and i farm a lot.

 

Drop rates are certainly skewed, this was acknowledged by both the devs and DERebeca on various occasions. The thing is, since we are not supposed to have mandatory resets, it makes much, much more sense to make them way, way to low and then slowly up them to acceptable levels based on data gathered then the other way around. Sucks for us players, but thats why this is a Beta after all. This is not the first time this has happened, here or in other games. Those of us that play Path of Exile and are familiar with their map system probably know how annoying lowballing is ;P

 

EDIT:

 

 

I'd say these values are accurate simply because we have more evidence on the side of them being accurate than them not.

Going with the side that's proven itself once before as opposed to the developers that couldn't even deliver weapons that weren't placeholders yet were happy to take money for rush building to get unfinished content faster.

 

What proof? You said that there is proof, but didn't provide it. Thats not how proving something works. The placeholders (placeholders in Beta?!?!? The travesty!) do not prove the validity of the drop rates.

Edited June 2, 2013 by JamnikPucek

[Skeloton]

These tables make no sense.

a) you don't get mods as mission rewards

b) You don't get "omni ammo box" Ever during missions, period. Not for the reward, not as a drop during the level, nothing.

 

 

It makes me curious as to the validity of anything.

A) Yes you do, try running M Prime a few times.

B) They turn up in Defence missions but other than that I don't know so you're probably right.

b)

[NotaCobra]

Do you make stuff up all the time or do you just not play the game?

Screen shot it.

Omni ammo box comes from store, defence and the daily award.

[Kyrkitao]

lol quoting a random reddit post, without source or methodology. 

 

Seems legit to me!

 I admit I cannot verify they're correct, but nothing in my experience suggests they are wrong. It seems like a lot of work to troll.

 

These tables make no sense.

a) you don't get mods as mission rewards

b) You don't get "omni ammo box" Ever during missions, period. Not for the reward, not as a drop during the level, nothing.

A is just plain wrong. I admit I have not seen an omni ammo box either, but that does not mean it doesn't happen.

[thatsleepyguy]

Screen shot it.

Omni ammo box comes from store, defence and the daily award.

I guess defense doesn't count as a mission type in your magical world of drops.

[Thelonious]

Aaaaaand gone...

Gone is the last bit of trust in DE I had...

[Sideway]

"B-But it's RNG!" - Multishot 0.15% Drop Chance

 

This is ridiculous. It's scam rate if it's true.

"Artificial Gameplay Time" to keep you always busy, always with a carrot on a stick at your face... with 0.15% chance to get the carrot.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Sideway

[NotaCobra]

I guess defense doesn't count as a mission type in your magical world of drops.

Look at the table, listed under "Raid" is omni ammo box.

[Whackhat]

These tables make no sense.

a) you don't get mods as mission rewards, you pick them up during the mission. I've been told that the "Daily win bonus" is a mod, but I'm not sure if it's true.

b) You don't get "omni ammo box" Ever during missions, period. Not for the reward, not as a drop during the level, nothing. It's exclusively a reward for Defence or the daily login (Aside from being purchased of course)

 

 

It makes me curious as to the validity of anything.

You get mods as mission rewards. You would know that if you actually played roughly 1-2 missions in your life. Which i guess you haven't.

[Orcao]

Y-yes, this game does have loot tables and certain things will have lower chances in those tables. I'm failing to see too much of a problem here.

 

The biggest issue I see is that rather than making all parts of a single item the same rarity, they make 2 parts super common and 1 part absurdly rare.

[Nerokerubina]

I'd love to see the drop rates for Orokin Cells, Gallium, Neurodes, and so forth as well. Hell, even the BPs for Frames.

[thatsleepyguy]

Look at the table, listed under "Raid" is omni ammo box.

According to that table, there's a 0.17% chance of one popping up as a reward. That's extraordinarily rare, yet you seem so set on calling it bs just because you haven't seen one yourself.

[ducronaldy]

Yeah I'm dubious as well. According to this I should've gotten at least 1 T3 void key after 667 defense missions. This is simply not the case, so clearly drop chance is not that high.

[Caernarvon]

Mmmmh, artificial game longevity, who doesn't love that crap.

 

"But, but we don't want this game to be about grind!" - DE in livestreams.

 

Yeah, about that.

[Mandragora]

These values seem spot-on really.

 

I was skeptical of datamined stuff before but it turned out to be largely correct in U8.

[Meepsauce]

What proof? You said that there is proof, but didn't provide it. Thats not how proving something works. The placeholders (placeholders in Beta?!?!? The travesty!) do not prove the validity of the drop rates.

The fact every clan blueprint I have bought to date has matched the values. Have you not been paying attention to the wiki or blueprints themselves? Also, those datamined values were posted on Reddit. Reddit =/= these values are false. I understand Reddit is not the most reliable source, but datamined values were proven to be true once before.

 

Scott confirmed they were true on the livestream. I'll find the point and edit when I find it.

 

 

"I just got blasted because people datamining the game for the blueprints."

 

Also, they allowed us to rush build to get to these placeholders quicker. You're okay with them taking money for incomplete stuff under the guise of it being player stupidity, despite there being no prior warning of them being incomplete weapons?

Edited June 2, 2013 by Meepsauce