If De Is Planing On Making All Future End Game Locked Behind A Pay/grind Wall Like The Void Missions, I Think That's A Big Mistake.

[Enot83]

Personally I don't like the fact that all of the void content is behind a pay/grind wall right now. To me it would have made sense to have t1 void rewards be boss style rng where you aren't guaranteed loot, but make the keys common. Then leave t2/3 how they are now, because I understand DE needs to make money where they can. Having to do specific mission types to maybe get a key that may or may not be useful is just bad in my opinion.

 

Just for the sake of clarification, is the pay/grind wall that you reference or others for that matter, viewed as a single player acquiring keys, or a group of 4 acquiring the key reward.

 

I'm generally curious due to, as a single player, I would personally find the drop rate and thus frequency you can do void missions to be rather low, and would not have been able to as a single player easily obtained items from the void simply through drops.  However, as a group of 4, I find the argument to still have some merrit to the frequency, however at the same time, tolerable and perhaps slightly frustrating, but functional.

 

I'd like to ask in which situation that this thread is addressing the issue, the single player or in a group of 4 who are acquiring keys and then using them together?

[plznohurtme]

Just for the sake of clarification, is the pay/grind wall that you reference or others for that matter, viewed as a single player acquiring keys, or a group of 4 acquiring the key reward.

 

I'm generally curious due to, as a single player, I would personally find the drop rate and thus frequency you can do void missions to be rather low, and would not have been able to as a single player easily obtained items from the void simply through drops.  However, as a group of 4, I find the argument to still have some merrit to the frequency, however at the same time, tolerable and perhaps slightly frustrating, but functional.

 

I'd like to ask in which situation that this thread is addressing the issue, the single player or in a group of 4 who are acquiring keys and then using them together?

For me it doesn't matter either way, the way that I'm looking at it is simple: Can I login to Warframe and play any actual content in the game? Nope, I cannot unless I either farm defense/raid or spend money.

The only difference between a solo person and a group of four is that when your group gets lucky you have four void runs. This doesn't make the underlying system any better.

[Enot83]

For me it doesn't matter either way, the way that I'm looking at it is simple: Can I login to Warframe and play any actual content in the game? Nope, I cannot unless I either farm defense/raid or spend money.

The only difference between a solo person and a group of four is that when your group gets lucky you have four void runs. This doesn't make the underlying system any better.

 

I'd think that's not a terrible way of looking at it either, personally with the amount of t1 keys my friends, and myself have found, and knowing what people have gotten from purchasing platinum, what you're suggesting in your earlier post and this I don't think is far off from being a more reasonable solution.  By this I do mean to say, we have found quite a few t1 keys, I think that also, based even on the existing rewards we are rather bored with doing t1 other than for some of the more obvious rewards, but altogether at this point, getting those keys is a "oh that again".  Having this accessible without them being required or just making them more common so others felt the same way might not be terrible in that at least they are seeing or going to the new content frequently while still having to put in some effort (time) for the other tiers.

 

I'd expect there to be potential adjustments in what you can get from the t1 completion rewards, frequency etc, like it seemed you pointed out.  I think the other side of this that may still act as a benefit is, you still have a value to t2 and t3, that from a business aspect people would find the purchase of tower keys actually more valuable possibly.  There is some more too it, depending on the way its approached and desire of items from the void. 

 

So would the access to for example t1 void, either through a very common reward, perhaps in addition to existing rewards to refrain from ruining the chances of other rewards, be enough?  Or would access to the rewards of the void also be an issue, pertaining to t1 rewards remaining the same, becoming less/more etc?  Would some of the rewards be removed, due to the new type of access?

 

The other direction I was going with the 4 players, is that working together as a team, while the rates may need some adjusting, though not simply carte blanche, playing in one set of content for an hour (or grinding as so may see it), if allowing for t2&t3 access even once, 4x for each by working together means anywhere in the range of 5-40 minutes roughly of experiencing new content.  Now I'm not saying this is how it is for everyone, but how those who are currently upset, how that would look to them?

Edited June 3, 2013 by Enot83

[Venarge]

Waiting on an RNG isn't "earning it" there is no "earning it" with warframe's current system.

earning like having patience. But since this word doesnt exist anymore in this world, people dont even now its value.

...

the only thing that needs to be changed is the drop chance for stuff like that being raised in higher levels. Earning stuff will be easier.....

Edited June 3, 2013 by Venarge

[HomeyCDawg]

You could probably grind out all the stuff in the game within about 6-8 months, provided you don't have anything else to do between now and then, otherwise, it might take a few years.

[Enot83]

earning like having patience. But since this word doesnt exist anymore in this world, people dont even now its value.

...

the only thing that needs to be changed is the drop chance for stuff like that being raised in higher levels. Earning stuff will be easier.....

 

I agree having the patience and putting in the effort or time to achieve something isn't unreasonable, I would also add however, some of the levels could still use work to make them a bit more engaging.

 

Obviously for a good player even some of the higher difficulty maps are going to be an absolute cake walk, but they could do more both to your normal levels, and defense missions, which goes a long way to make it not as grind feeling... potentially at least.

 

I think however, like plznohurtme was pointing out, is that unless you did that, you would still be locked from the new content that was released, and not to put words where there aren't for plznohurtme, for myself at least, seeing others have access to the easier parts of the new content simply to experience it, become familiar with it etc, while still restricting what can be gained to a degree in other tiers would at least let people experience a portion of it with little effort, and the better things being in areas that obviously required additional effort.

 

You could probably grind out all the stuff in the game within about 6-8 months, provided you don't have anything else to do between now and then, otherwise, it might take a few years.

 

I do know people who have not spent a dime on any of the game content, who have been able to obtain everything, or close to (missing only 1-2 things), in less than a month.  They do have a very large number of hours played, and have ascribed to a strict method to make sure specific alerts are not missed.  Perhaps this is a small group of players, but what you've described, sounds more like the availability of time or bad methodology of efficiently playing if the desire is to acquire or gain access to the full spectrum of the current content, especially to call it a grind if one is simply playing at their leisure to enjoy and pass time.

 

As was said earlier, simply throwing numbers around doesn't help either side of this conversation in any way.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Enot83

[plznohurtme]

I agree having the patience and putting in the effort or time to achieve something isn't unreasonable, I would also add however, some of the levels could still use work to make them a bit more engaging.

 

Obviously for a good player even some of the higher difficulty maps are going to be an absolute cake walk, but they could do more both to your normal levels, and defense missions, which goes a long way to make it not as grind feeling... potentially at least.

 

I think however, like plznohurtme was pointing out, is that unless you did that, you would still be locked from the new content that was released, and not to put words where there aren't for plznohurtme, for myself at least, seeing others have access to the easier parts of the new content simply to experience it, become familiar with it etc, while still restricting what can be gained to a degree in other tiers would at least let people experience a portion of it with little effort, and the better things being in areas that obviously required additional effort.

-snip-

I agree with this concept completely, some of the content needs to be available easily for everyone. Lower the drop rates to keep the stuff exclusive so someone who is willing to farm tier 1 for 10 hours a day until they get what they want can't just bypass everything else. I also do agree and think that higher level areas need to have better drop rates than in the lower level areas, the rewards also have to be better in some way as well. Pluto is devoid of raid missions for whatever reason, but even those in Eris don't seem to drop anything different than the ones in Mercury and this is a giant hole in general drops in my opinion.

Warframe has a lot of missions and content available, but due to the way that drops work it gets greatly contracted, so I think DE needs to do everything they can to spread people out across their game more. Give people a reason to do all sorts of content across the game, but at the same time new content needs to be at least partly available to everyone easily.

It seems silly to me that a person playing this game casually solo who just joins online groups has a relatively small chance of seeing the void without paying. Even then they have to ask in general chat if people want to join them because you can't just start a game and have people randomly join you. To me this is just silly, because it is discouraging random play together and it just doesn't seem beneficial to the game's longevity.

The keys and the void are an interesting concept that I do like, but the baseline should be available to everyone in a similar fashion to regular missions, let the higher tiers stay the way they are now. Giving a little something to everyone seems pretty reasonable to me.

[Flunky]

tell me how many t3 keys you farmed up with the ~0.17% drop rate

[Enot83]

I agree with this concept completely, some of the content needs to be available easily for everyone. Lower the drop rates to keep the stuff exclusive so someone who is willing to farm tier 1 for 10 hours a day until they get what they want can't just bypass everything else. I also do agree and think that higher level areas need to have better drop rates than in the lower level areas, the rewards also have to be better in some way as well. Pluto is devoid of raid missions for whatever reason, but even those in Eris don't seem to drop anything different than the ones in Mercury and this is a giant hole in general drops in my opinion.

Warframe has a lot of missions and content available, but due to the way that drops work it gets greatly contracted, so I think DE needs to do everything they can to spread people out across their game more. Give people a reason to do all sorts of content across the game, but at the same time new content needs to be at least partly available to everyone easily.

It seems silly to me that a person playing this game casually solo who just joins online groups has a relatively small chance of seeing the void without paying. Even then they have to ask in general chat if people want to join them because you can't just start a game and have people randomly join you. To me this is just silly, because it is discouraging random play together and it just doesn't seem beneficial to the game's longevity.

The keys and the void are an interesting concept that I do like, but the baseline should be available to everyone in a similar fashion to regular missions, let the higher tiers stay the way they are now. Giving a little something to everyone seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

And people say you can't have good conversations here on the forums lol :p

 

I understand what you're voicing, I think too this seemed to be the way I felt they had approached things prior to U8 actually.

 

I had looked at it for a while that with U8 focusing so much on clans that this was meant to be a clan zone, to some extent, but with the ability for people who didn't want clans or during the time it took to build a facility in the dojo to have access, that there would be another method.  However, in light of not being able to just invite clan members and no system that I mentioned being in place, I feel more so that wasn't the intent.  Rather than it being a clear, once you have this you're gonna have the ability to build these or access them in some kind of manner that is beyond RNG rewards at the end of levels, that even if it took a couple weeks to get there it was an achievable goal.  (though as demonstrated by the 1k+ clans, this would have been just another reason to take advantage of DE's lack of foresight regarding how clans would build dojo's, lol).

[plznohurtme]

And people say you can't have good conversations here on the forums lol :p

 

I understand what you're voicing, I think too this seemed to be the way I felt they had approached things prior to U8 actually.

 

I had looked at it for a while that with U8 focusing so much on clans that this was meant to be a clan zone, to some extent, but with the ability for people who didn't want clans or during the time it took to build a facility in the dojo to have access, that there would be another method.  However, in light of not being able to just invite clan members and no system that I mentioned being in place, I feel more so that wasn't the intent.  Rather than it being a clear, once you have this you're gonna have the ability to build these or access them in some kind of manner that is beyond RNG rewards at the end of levels, that even if it took a couple weeks to get there it was an achievable goal.  (though as demonstrated by the 1k+ clans, this would have been just another reason to take advantage of DE's lack of foresight regarding how clans would build dojo's, lol).

I know right? Turns out when people just have opinions and voice them things stay civil and productive. Silly concept on the internet that is.

Sometimes I wonder if part of the problem they have isn't the popularity of the game itself versus where they thought that it would be. They have an absolutely huge playerbase and some massive clans and some rather small clans and the approach they seemed to take was kind of half between or so. I remember messaging a friend during the last livestream when DE_Steve said "we took the materials the big clans had, averaged it out and cut that number in half" for the materials on Dojos and thought to myself no wonder there was a problem.

A lot of the issues seem to stem from the approach that they take towards introducing things and then it gets squared away later. So far they've done a good job fixing all of the issues that have come up (at least since I started around the release of u6). Unfortunately these problems come right before E3 which I'm sure they've needed to have content for and I know u8 took longer than expected to begin with. I imagine that if they'd been able to get it out a week/two before they did that we would have solutions for a lot of the problems already.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

earning like having patience. But since this word doesnt exist anymore in this world, people dont even now its value.

...

the only thing that needs to be changed is the drop chance for stuff like that being raised in higher levels. Earning stuff will be easier.....

Waiting is not "earning" anything. People keep spouting and repeating this argument without any sort of logic or context, but it means absolutely nothing. No one wants the game to be easier, they want it to have actual content you can work towards instead of just waiting around for the RNG to randomly give you S#&$ (because that's what the R means, random. There is no earning S#&$ when everything is random).

[Enot83]

Waiting is not "earning" anything. People keep spouting and repeating this argument without any sort of logic or context, but it means absolutely nothing. No one wants the game to be easier, they want it to have actual content you can work towards instead of just waiting around for the RNG to randomly give you S#&$ (because that's what the R means, random. There is no earning S#&$ when everything is random).

 

Part of the RNG is doing the levels, multiple times to get an item, that is the "earning" part, you aren't simply waiting for some random event to occur.  This is a time invested knowing there is a chance of the reward, with a larger cross section of time, where over time you should see an average.  Even if it is random, there are values associated with it and as such that is where you see the average, with small sample sizes you tend to see from multiple subjects a much more varied set of results.  Of course if you agree with where that average is, obviously is what much discussion is about, but it does exist, and so the statement is not inherently wrong.  If by the definition of what that person posted that earning is by investing time and playing the levels to potentially gain rewards, then yes, increasing the odds, makes it easier to obtain the rewards.  Which again, is by and large the point of contention.

[matrixEXO]

Part of the RNG is doing the levels, multiple times to get an item, that is the "earning" part, you aren't simply waiting for some random event to occur.  This is a time invested knowing there is a chance of the reward, with a larger cross section of time, where over time you should see an average.  Even if it is random, there are values associated with it and as such that is where you see the average, with small sample sizes you tend to see from multiple subjects a much more varied set of results.  Of course if you agree with where that average is, obviously is what much discussion is about, but it does exist, and so the statement is not inherently wrong.  If by the definition of what that person posted that earning is by investing time and playing the levels to potentially gain rewards, then yes, increasing the odds, makes it easier to obtain the rewards.  Which again, is by and large the point of contention.

Part of RNG is where when the drop rates are manipulated to be lower, you do want something of superior value than the other rarities. I don't see much that are of real Rare status except Flow, Continuity, Streamline, Focus, Enemy Sense, Thief's Wit and Handspring. Yes, Master Thief is a good mod, but it isn't really at the power meant for Rare. Given that you only have 40% at max rank, it should be uncommon at best. It should be at least 60% for it to be Rare.

Edited June 3, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Hafilgar]

You can still get all the content. You just have to earn it. Besides that. if you have a few friends who got more luck than you, they could easily invite you.

 

There is nothing to be earned in this game. Everything and I must emphasize that EVERYTHING in this game is based on RNG. So far all this grinding is just to get lucky. So far I have yet to see any content where you work for a reward (besides the FMOA event) and earn it rather that simply hoping you win something. RNG is the bane of warframe. They're relying on it a little TOO MUCH.

[Enot83]

Part of RNG is where when the drop rates are manipulated to be lower, you do want something of superior value than the other rarities. I don't see much that are of real Rare status except Flow, Continuity, Streamline, Focus, Enemy Sense, Thief's Wit and Handspring. Yes, Master Thief is a good mod, but it isn't really at the power meant for Rare. Given that you only have 40% at max rank, it should be uncommon at best. It should be at least 60% for it to be Rare.

Right and this is more along the lines of are the rewards appropriate, and starts digging into itemization that some things classified as rare, should not be and some classified as uncommon should be rare etc.

 

Wasn't there complaints about cryo rounds at one point? I mean I know personally that it took me in the 100hr played time to get one lol, certainly didn't feel "uncommon" to me at the time. Of course after that I've seen probably half a dozen or more (stopped counting/caring)

 

Though I think this is offtopic from the discussion of the availability of content, and specifically right now, new content.

 

On topic, somewhat directed back at plznohurtme and others, in regards to the pay/grind blocking, is it the price or just again as before that there is a direct block across the board? Since after the changes to both rewards of tiers and being garunteed a t3 key from purchases, the cost that "could" be associated with a t3 key...

If from the perspective of just running t3 (based solely on if you got a single t3 key, ignoring that you could get more):

The cost associated with 4 players is 18.75p (ignoring other keys)

Solo would be 75 per t3.

 

If from the perspective of just running the void:

The cost associated with 4 players is 3.75p

Solo would be 15 per void mission.

 

Couple of ways to break it down, but thought that was more relevant. I'm curious since much of the time people bring up, that others would pay if the prices were not so ridiculous etc... so that's why I pose this as a question now.

 

Simply attacking it from different directions...

 

(yay for double post before /sigh)

Edited June 3, 2013 by Enot83

[Excitonex]

Part of RNG is where when the drop rates are manipulated to be lower, you do want something of superior value than the other rarities. I don't see much that are of real Rare status except Flow, Continuity, Streamline, Focus, Enemy Sense, Thief's Wit and Handspring. Yes, Master Thief is a good mod, but it isn't really at the power meant for Rare. Given that you only have 40% at max rank, it should be uncommon at best. It should be at least 60% for it to be Rare.

I will trade you 10 Flows, Focus, and Continuity for a single Master Thief. It may suck for those of you in mega-clans who have a full dojo and no content to work towards but for the small clans it's golden.

[plznohurtme]

Right and this is more along the lines of are the rewards appropriate, and starts digging into itemization that some things classified as rare, should not be and some classified as uncommon should be rare etc.

 

Wasn't there complaints about cryo rounds at one point? I mean I know personally that it took me in the 100hr played time to get one lol, certainly didn't feel "uncommon" to me at the time. Of course after that I've seen probably half a dozen or more (stopped counting/caring)

 

Though I think this is offtopic from the discussion of the availability of content, and specifically right now, new content.

 

On topic, somewhat directed back at plznohurtme and others, in regards to the pay/grind blocking, is it the price or just again as before that there is a direct block across the board? Since after the changes to both rewards of tiers and being garunteed a t3 key from purchases, the cost that "could" be associated with a t3 key...

If from the perspective of just running t3 (based solely on if you got a single t3 key, ignoring that you could get more):

The cost associated with 4 players is 18.75p (ignoring other keys)

Solo would be 75 per t3.

 

If from the perspective of just running the void:

The cost associated with 4 players is 3.75p

Solo would be 15 per void mission.

 

Couple of ways to break it down, but thought that was more relevant. I'm curious since much of the time people bring up, that others would pay if the prices were not so ridiculous etc... so that's why I pose this as a question now.

 

Simply attacking it from different directions...

 

(yay for double post before /sigh)

I don't necessarily find the pricing to be too bad, though if they were to change tier 1 void like I think they should then key packs would need to be adjusted for the value to still exist. Though I have been looking at it through the eyes of the founder pack. If you look at it as 1000p/$50 then the price is pretty crazy as you're talking 3.75/pack. for that price conversion they should probably be looking at two t3 keys, especially when it can take upwards of 20-30 t3 runs alone (even split among four players that's $75 in keys).

Cost is certainly an issue, but for me the underlying issue is that there still is no easy way to say grind void missions for the low percent drops without either grinding other missions or paying money.

[matrixEXO]

I will trade you 10 Flows, Focus, and Continuity for a single Master Thief. It may suck for those of you in mega-clans who have a full dojo and no content to work towards but for the small clans it's golden.

It's not that I don't want the mod itself but that I don't think it justifies being in the Rare section. Same as abilities since they are not universal like weapon and other frame mods.

 

Please read it properly before posting next time.

Edited June 3, 2013 by matrixEXO

[-Thresher-]

Agreed.

[Excitonex]

It's not that I don't want the mod itself but that I don't think it justifies being in the Rare section. Same as abilities since they are not universal like weapon and other frame mods.

 

Please read it properly before posting next time.

You think it doesn't deserve to be rare because of some arbitrary numbers quibble. I think it does deserve to be rare because it is very valuable to a number of players.

[Enot83]

I don't necessarily find the pricing to be too bad, though if they were to change tier 1 void like I think they should then key packs would need to be adjusted for the value to still exist. Though I have been looking at it through the eyes of the founder pack. If you look at it as 1000p/$50 then the price is pretty crazy as you're talking 3.75/pack. for that price conversion they should probably be looking at two t3 keys, especially when it can take upwards of 20-30 t3 runs alone (even split among four players that's $75 in keys).

Cost is certainly an issue, but for me the underlying issue is that there still is no easy way to say grind void missions for the low percent drops without either grinding other missions or paying money.

 

Right, also for the model of all content being accessible by f2p methods, even if split among 4 the cost being minimal, I think the point is pretty valid, since it deviates from being accessible unless you pay or put in the effort/time of grinding, just to see it first hand.

 

I'm wondering if part of the pricing model was based off the forma, and chances to get that as well and its cost.  (which not to derail too much I believe the forma pricing is placing too much value on something simply due to its quantity and use in the dojo.  Ultimately its usefulness in comparison to similar pricing like the reactor/catalyst and that you gain 30 additional mod capacity, which is approx 4x greater than any single gain from using forma to adjust polarity... but I digress on that.  I just wonder if the price on it affected decisions on other prices.  Glad this discussion went here, finally got me to post about my problems with forma :p

Edited June 3, 2013 by Enot83

[ZWarhammer]

I agree on some of it but mostly it's because this game is fully advertised and yet uses BETA as an excuse for everything!

They could reset the accounts of everyone if there was a big exploit that happened and everyone would get screwed! hell they could just reset everyone for no reason, they probably won't do it because they will lose lots of players but it's all in the user agreement of this game with BETA as an excuse!

i'v been playing this game for 2 months or so now with a bit over 450 hours of playtime most of that spent farming stuff daily and guess where i'm at ?

I still have to farm everything ! i still have the same chances of getting a certain mod as a new player who just logged in!

The player progression is heavily restricted by the so called RNG mechanic used for almost everything in the game.

Latest update 8 screwed up the rare material drops from bosses!

The so called "Rare" materials like Rubedo,alloy plate,circuits, are now mostly pointless cause they made the most new weapons require 5k ferrite and 250 plastids each not to mention Forma.

So the so called rare mats we've been farming all this time are now mostly useless! i now have to go back and farm Mercury for ferrite oh my aint that fun ? farming a level 1 planet with level 30 gear.

How about the prime gear from the void ? it's supposed to be the ancient orokin technology but they had the b*lls to make em come without a catalyst/potato and the reaper prime comes with no polarity slots to begin with!

The new research weapons are either gimmicky,unfinished or pointless besides mastery level.

So far U8 is not the best i'v seen of this game.

[plznohurtme]

Right, also for the model of all content being accessible by f2p methods, even if split among 4 the cost being minimal, I think the point is pretty valid, since it deviates from being accessible unless you pay or put in the effort/time of grinding, just to see it first hand.

 

I'm wondering if part of the pricing model was based off the forma, and chances to get that as well and its cost.  (which not to derail too much I believe the forma pricing is placing too much value on something simply due to its quantity and use in the dojo.  Ultimately its usefulness in comparison to similar pricing like the reactor/catalyst and that you gain 30 additional mod capacity, which is approx 4x greater than any single gain from using forma to adjust polarity... but I digress on that.  I just wonder if the price on it affected decisions on other prices.  Glad this discussion went here, finally got me to post about my problems with forma :p

I think the pricing for forma came from the reactor/catalyst cost some they provide similar function. That being said forma should probably cost 10p not 20.

[f3llyn]

Part of the RNG is doing the levels, multiple times to get an item, that is the "earning" part, you aren't simply waiting for some random event to occur.  This is a time invested knowing there is a chance of the reward, with a larger cross section of time, where over time you should see an average.  Even if it is random, there are values associated with it and as such that is where you see the average, with small sample sizes you tend to see from multiple subjects a much more varied set of results.  Of course if you agree with where that average is, obviously is what much discussion is about, but it does exist, and so the statement is not inherently wrong.  If by the definition of what that person posted that earning is by investing time and playing the levels to potentially gain rewards, then yes, increasing the odds, makes it easier to obtain the rewards.  Which again, is by and large the point of contention.

 

Do tell, what level can we do to earn us a catalyst or reactor? After 125 hours over the last 5 and a half months I haven't found it so if you'd fill us in on that little secret that would be great.

Edited June 4, 2013 by f3llyn

[VScipii26]

I think the pricing for forma came from the reactor/catalyst cost some they provide similar function. That being said forma should probably cost 10p not 20.

Nah, forma and potatoes are good, cost-wise.

What's NOT good is the fact that Forma is so prevalent.

The big problem is that no matter how much time you put into the game, you don't feel like you're earning anything.

That'd be like saying you're earning your occasional $10 from a lotto scratcher by going around and picking up every penny in a five mile radius. It's too much luck. Earning something should not be based off of luck.