If De Is Planing On Making All Future End Game Locked Behind A Pay/grind Wall Like The Void Missions, I Think That's A Big Mistake.

[Excitonex]

Nah, forma and potatoes are good, cost-wise.

What's NOT good is the fact that Forma is so prevalent.

The big problem is that no matter how much time you put into the game, you don't feel like you're earning anything.

That'd be like saying you're earning your occasional $10 from a lotto scratcher by going around and picking up every penny in a five mile radius. It's too much luck. Earning something should not be based off of luck.

I disagree, I have put in 350 hours and I feel like I've been earning much. Grinding and spending time to get things is earning it. If you think any game is more than a way to spend time you are sadly mistaken.

[Skeloton]

The big problem is that no matter how much time you put into the game, you don't feel like you're earning anything.

That'd be like saying you're earning your occasional $10 from a lotto scratcher by going around and picking up every penny in a five mile radius. It's too much luck. Earning something should not be based off of luck.

I agree, its like "hey I just got a hells chamber, I did what everyone else does but I got lucky", or my 90 odd runs of Everest without seeing a Trinity systems. Patience is a virture and its overused.

[BoompigXD]

I get Void keys all the time from Defense missions.

 

Your Arguement is invalid.

[BoompigXD]

Guys, don't you remember? Open Beta, DE needs money to make improvements?

 

DE can't make any improvements on the game without money. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO stop complaining and whining.

 

F2P will do this. In any F2P game its a choice. Grind or Pay.

 

Pay will let the devs keep updating. Grinding will always be the alternative. Deal with it. 

[f3llyn]

Guys, don't you remember? Open Beta, DE needs money to make improvements?

 

DE can't make any improvements on the game without money. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO stop complaining and whining.

 

F2P will do this. In any F2P game its a choice. Grind or Pay.

 

Pay will let the devs keep updating. Grinding will always be the alternative. Deal with it. 

 

Sorry. I was under the impression that this forum was to give feedback on the game for ways to improve it. I didn't know we were supposed to only agree with each other that everything is fine and DE has got it under control.

 

That's my bad.

Edited June 4, 2013 by f3llyn

[Skeloton]

Sorry. I was under the impression that this forum was to give feedback on the game for ways to improve it. I didn't know we were supposed to only agree with each other that everything is fine and DE has got it under control.

 

That's my bad.

So much win.

[Enot83]

Do tell, what level can we do to earn us a catalyst or reactor? After 125 hours over the last 5 and a half months I haven't found it so if you'd fill us in on that little secret that would be great.

 

The discussion was regarding content of the void, and getting the keys.  Don't try to put words where they were not, I am in no way advocating for what you are implying I am regarding reactors/catalysts.  If anything I likely agree with you regarding finding a secret to getting them :P  rather than discuss some of that here, I have brought up the forma to catalyst/reactor issue that I eluded to in another thread -_-.

 

If you want to discuss catalyst and reactor frequency/availability in another thread I think that would be great.  Lets try to keep this one perhaps more about tower keys/void missions (and maybe even their drops/loot).

Edited June 4, 2013 by Enot83

[shinydunsparce]

God I love GM's trying to defend their 'purchase.' 250 bucks down the drain and they're fighting for something to hold on to.

Edited June 4, 2013 by shinydunsparce

[Excitonex]

God I love GM's trying to defend their 'purchase.' 250 bucks down the drain and they're fighting for something to hold on to.

Yeah, those people who are helping make this game a reality for you are damn silly.

[Enot83]

God I love GM's trying to defend their 'purchase.' 250 bucks down the drain and they're fighting for something to hold on to.

 

Honestly how is this helpful to the thread in any way?  At least bring something relevant /sigh.  I'd refer you to my earlier post(s) but I doubt it would do much for you. 

[kgb_cyborg]

At this point I gotta say I've given up on getting Latron Prime or Reaper Prime until drop tables are fixed. T3 keys are just too rare, and it's one of my hard rules in life that I do not gamble with money (so no void key packs). T2 keys drop just about enough that I still hold out some hope of building the Frost Prime from the moa event bp.

 

I know how drop tables have come to be the way they are - in the past they were an adequate system, they've just exceeded their use-by date. Some have suggested the ability to make small progress towards your goal regardless of what drops you get (the "scrap metal" approach). I think this is a great idea. But, if DE wants to stick with drop tables, it seems like a few things need to happen:

 

1. Progress from advancing to higher waves in endless defense. Rather than just re-accessing the same static drop table every 5 waves on high-level defense like Xini or the Outer Terminus, maybe rewards that were declined in previous 5x waves should be removed from the drop table, so a squad can "undilute" the drop table through hard work and perseverance. Alternatively, if RNG must remain sacrosanct, as a squad advances through waves, sought-after drops become more likely, common drops less so.

2. For non-endless defense missions, MORE drop tables with LESS common ground. Give every mission type a drop table, and then give every mission type several more drop tables based on enemy level/difficulty. With appropriate rewards! Have a certain amount of overlap so that any given reward can be obtained from say 2 different drop tables, but avoid diluting the drop tables excessively (as they seem to be now) by having any more overlap than this.

3. The whole Common/Uncommon/Rare bracketing for drop tables also seems past its prime, given the aforementioned diluted drop tables. Surely you'd be better off with fully customisable drop tables, so you can quickly and easily respond to balance issues rather than taking to a calculator for half an hour to figure out what moving a reward from Uncommon to Common will do to the drop table (I jest to make a point).

 

Also, on the topic of GMs. If you're going F2P in the way that you are, anybody who drops $250 on your game should have everything and a t-shirt. Access all areas. Unlimited void runs, unlimited equipment slots and every warframe, painted gold, served to them on a platter of caviar and saffron. You get the idea. It's $250 for crying out loud! What kind of game still has content locked after $250? That's probably more than I've spent on games in my entire life!

[Excitonex]

At this point I gotta say I've given up on getting Latron Prime or Reaper Prime until drop tables are fixed. T3 keys are just too rare, and it's one of my hard rules in life that I do not gamble with money (so no void key packs). T2 keys drop just about enough that I still hold out some hope of building the Frost Prime from the moa event bp.

 

I know how drop tables have come to be the way they are - in the past they were an adequate system, they've just exceeded their use-by date. Some have suggested the ability to make small progress towards your goal regardless of what drops you get (the "scrap metal" approach). I think this is a great idea. But, if DE wants to stick with drop tables, it seems like a few things need to happen:

 

1. Progress from advancing to higher waves in endless defense. Rather than just re-accessing the same static drop table every 5 waves on high-level defense like Xini or the Outer Terminus, maybe rewards that were declined in previous 5x waves should be removed from the drop table, so a squad can "undilute" the drop table through hard work and perseverance. Alternatively, if RNG must remain sacrosanct, as a squad advances through waves, sought-after drops become more likely, common drops less so.

2. For non-endless defense missions, MORE drop tables with LESS common ground. Give every mission type a drop table, and then give every mission type several more drop tables based on enemy level/difficulty. With appropriate rewards! Have a certain amount of overlap so that any given reward can be obtained from say 2 different drop tables, but avoid diluting the drop tables excessively (as they seem to be now) by having any more overlap than this.

3. The whole Common/Uncommon/Rare bracketing for drop tables also seems past its prime, given the aforementioned diluted drop tables. Surely you'd be better off with fully customisable drop tables, so you can quickly and easily respond to balance issues rather than taking to a calculator for half an hour to figure out what moving a reward from Uncommon to Common will do to the drop table (I jest to make a point).

 

Also, on the topic of GMs. If you're going F2P in the way that you are, anybody who drops $250 on your game should have everything and a t-shirt. Access all areas. Unlimited void runs, unlimited equipment slots and every warframe, painted gold, served to them on a platter of caviar and saffron. You get the idea. It's $250 for crying out loud! What kind of game still has content locked after $250? That's probably more than I've spent on games in my entire life!

I believe drop tables are on the list of things that is currently being worked on. I definitely support the idea of being able to refine the endless defense rewards as you get to higher waves by removing rewards you already passed up.

 

Most people who donated to the $100 and $250 level did it more because they want to support the game than wanting to unlock all the items super easy. After all, if you have everything what do you work towards?

[CosyPigeon]

Yep, grand master. Argument invalid.

 

Considering you couldn't even be bothered to cough up 20 bucks to support a game that if your number of forums posts is anything to go by, has given you hours of enjoyment, I think your argument is more likely to be considered invalid.  

Back on topic, I agree with the sentiments of the OP. Hiding the first new levels that break up the monotony this game has seen in months behind a platinum wall and a %0.17 drop chance seems extremely cynical of DE. Even paying customers want value for their money, and this cash extraction strategy is pretty transparent. It essentially establishes the precedent of a subscription fee, where any time new content comes out, you have to pay if you want a realistic opportunity to play it. 

In the live streams the Devs have stated that they wanted to slow down the rate at which we consume their updates, but for people actually playing the game, it feels like they want to create a subscription fee for end game content. 

[CosyPigeon]

God I love GM's trying to defend their 'purchase.' 250 bucks down the drain and they're fighting for something to hold on to.

 

I supported a game I love and wanted to see created because like DE, I'm sick of incompetent publishers ruining everything about the games industry. If you can't appreciate the game DE are creating or the fact that the founders helped get it off the ground, then sod off. Go spend 50 bucks on the next FPS clone produced by Activision whilst you tongue their perineum.

[shinydunsparce]

I supported a game I love and wanted to see created because like DE, I'm sick of incompetent publishers ruining everything about the games industry. If you can't appreciate the game DE are creating or the fact that the founders helped get it off the ground, then sod off. Go spend 50 bucks on the next FPS clone produced by Activision whilst you tongue their perineum.

 

If i don't support this spiraling grindfest with money, why the F*** would I support remake #20 of modern warfare?

[CosyPigeon]

If i don't support this spiraling grindfest with money, why the F*** would I support remake #20 of modern warfare?

 

If you find this game to be a spiraling grind fest. Then go play something you enjoy. 

[Boomstick720]

Alright lemme give my opinion on this first, and then I'll see if I can try to explain why I think DE is doing this.

 

I think it is a bit wrong to have a lot of significant new level content/ new "area" content behind a paywall, but on the other hand, I can understand why this is the case.

 

Honestly, I think DE is doing this for one of two reasons.

 

1.  They are trying to buy time to come out with more stuff.

Let me put it this way.  From what I can tell, the success of warframe, and therefore the rate at which its grown, has likely taken them by surprise.  With the open beta thing hitting over a million players as of early april, I would be shocked if they predicted that.  With this sudden massive influx of new players, they likely felt pressured to release new content, and fast.  After all, they would likely only get one shot to keep these players playing for as long as possible.  The trouble is, as I've found with many friends, people just got bored of the game.  When I first started playing when the open beta released, it was myself, my cousin, and 4 of our friends that would play frequently.  Now, its just me.  So when faced with this low retention rate, and quickly running out of time and ideas to make truly replayable content, they fell back on the best solution they could- grind.  And when that didn't work, make it harder to grind/ make it take longer.  Would some people be &!$$ed?  Definitely, but it struck me as a last resort in order to keep players long enough so that they can work on new details/ take more time to fix bugs.  Generally speaking, the time it takes to make new content can be shortened by spending more money, which brings me to my other alternative...

 

2. They are not making their budget, and are trying to create more situations in which people would be more likely to pay.

In other words, they are either not making enough money to continue to reliably create new content, or they have "research and development" expenses that are far too high.  In all honesty, I am not sure how likely this scenario is, as I have no access to any financial statements for the company (speaking of which, if you need an accountant, DE, let me know :P).  However, should they be unable to make their targets, I see this as a far more viable option, as while it is a risk in potentially losing players, you may also get just enough to "make the cut".

 

Overall, I see these increases in grind mechanics as temporary, so I'm fairly optimistic about the future, so long as DE can stay funded by us.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Boomstick720

[plznohurtme]

DE simply needs to expand upon their system and how it works. Limiting what mods drop in what system and increasing quality of drop as difficultly goes up. I'd like to think that whatever they are doing to add in a higher difficulty will coincide with adjustments to drops and what is available.

While it does make sense that the void choice was intentional I actually get the impression that they're under the gun to release content and so more of it is first pass/incomplete.

There's really no reason to insult people over a video game or make assumptions about other people that you know nothing about. It's not exactly constructive when there is something people who actually care about the game are trying to discuss.

Edited June 4, 2013 by plznohurtme

[suadumpy]

Yep, grand master. Argument invalid.

Really tho? ._.

[BoompigXD]

Sorry. I was under the impression that this forum was to give feedback on the game for ways to improve it. I didn't know we were supposed to only agree with each other that everything is fine and DE has got it under control.

 

That's my bad.

You're right this is a feedback forum.

 

However this does not sound like a feedback suggestion more like an obvious whine because you don't have patience and don't want to pay up.

 

I get Void Keys all the time from Defense Missions. Normally at wave 5.

[BoompigXD]

Alright lemme give my opinion on this first, and then I'll see if I can try to explain why I think DE is doing this.

 

I think it is a bit wrong to have a lot of significant new level content/ new "area" content behind a paywall, but on the other hand, I can understand why this is the case.

 

Honestly, I think DE is doing this for one of two reasons.

 

1.  They are trying to buy time to come out with more stuff.

Let me put it this way.  From what I can tell, the success of warframe, and therefore the rate at which its grown, has likely taken them by surprise.  With the open beta thing hitting over a million players as of early april, I would be shocked if they predicted that.  With this sudden massive influx of new players, they likely felt pressured to release new content, and fast.  After all, they would likely only get one shot to keep these players playing for as long as possible.  The trouble is, as I've found with many friends, people just got bored of the game.  When I first started playing when the open beta released, it was myself, my cousin, and 4 of our friends that would play frequently.  Now, its just me.  So when faced with this low retention rate, and quickly running out of time and ideas to make truly replayable content, they fell back on the best solution they could- grind.  And when that didn't work, make it harder to grind/ make it take longer.  Would some people be &!$$ed?  Definitely, but it struck me as a last resort in order to keep players long enough so that they can work on new details/ take more time to fix bugs.  Generally speaking, the time it takes to make new content can be shortened by spending more money, which brings me to my other alternative...

 

2. They are not making their budget, and are trying to create more situations in which people would be more likely to pay.

In other words, they are either not making enough money to continue to reliably create new content, or they have "research and development" expenses that are far too high.  In all honesty, I am not sure how likely this scenario is, as I have no access to any financial statements for the company (speaking of which, if you need an accountant, DE, let me know :P).  However, should they be unable to make their targets, I see this as a far more viable option, as while it is a risk in potentially losing players, you may also get just enough to "make the cut".

 

Overall, I see these increases in grind mechanics as temporary, so I'm fairly optimistic about the future, so long as DE can stay funded by us.

Have an upvote good sir.

 

You are using your noodles.

[BoompigXD]

I supported a game I love and wanted to see created because like DE, I'm sick of incompetent publishers ruining everything about the games industry. If you can't appreciate the game DE are creating or the fact that the founders helped get it off the ground, then sod off. Go spend 50 bucks on the next FPS clone produced by Activision whilst you tongue their perineum.

COD. COD comes out every year and its the SAME THING EVERY TIME!!!!!!!!!

This game is a great break from the other generic shooters and since i haven't paid any to support the game (planning on buying some potatoes and Forma for my Weps) I'm trying to contribute as much as i can in the forums and trying to shut down dumb threads but since i'm not a Mod i don't have much success. 

[Keetsune]

You can still get all the content. You just have to earn it. Besides that. if you have a few friends who got more luck than you, they could easily invite you.

43 vs 4(i bet this ppls with 100500 plat on their acc) : u should make conclusions. 100 hrs played after U8 and didnt saw a single T3 key, yeah yeah ... earn it.

[Meltina]

Worst part of being able to "earn" content is the reward does not feel worth the effort put into it. The latron prime takes 124 hours of farming to get on average if the datamined drop rates are right. Sure you can drop it to 31 hours in a 4 person group but that still is 31 hours of 2 min rush missions without any breaks. Does the latron prime really feel like it was worth a total of 124 man hours for your group to achieve. The reward does just makes the amount of effort it took to to feel as a waste of time.

 

I was happy when i got my reciver in run #92 not because of the reciver but because it meant I don't have to touch the void again. Hopefully they will not add more loot to the void imagine it with even more crowded drop tables. Remember for every person that gets lucky theres someone who is unlucky. 25+ of my runs were post hotfix t3 runs I was able to build 8 reaper primes and 3 frost primes before that reciver dropped. I did not get my first blade or frost prime bp till after the hotfix.

 

At about run 56 was the first time I actualy got to craft anything and that was a forma blueprint. I was getting sick of the void due to no rewards. Then the grind got so bad I did not get excited at the rewards it was more of relief the grind is ending. I loved the content. The grind killed it and that was without grinding for keys.

[MoonicusMaximus]

It was my understanding that trips to the Void were meant to be a sort of bonus, hence the increased drop of mods and credit rewards. I don't think they were meant to be a manner of end-game for Warframe, if the rarity of obtaining Void Keys freely is any indication.