Why Is Dera Even Worse Than Grakata?

[Kordy]

Every gun is bad if it completely missed the target.

 

I guess all those 2 damages that pop out must be mirages or something.

 

Surely, after effects of my screen saver, yeah.

 

Same with the braton.

 

Don't come out with stuff like "player is suck; therefore the gun is suck" and claim they're not a point you're making. You said it, either stand behind it or leave.

 

 

 

The very first rule of testing is to keep everything constant, only certain variable that you want to test. 

By comparing a moded braton vs unmoded dera, you already introduced a lot more variables than the variables that need to be tested. And by doing that, you violated the first rule of testing.

So why not put up an unmoded braton and illustrate it along side with an unmoded Dera?

 

And all of your questions are derived from your own mind, where as all i asked for is a better example, a better illustration, for a better, closer analysis. I never said anything about which weapon is better, and which is best, nor did i said that braton is bad when sprayed.

 

So check up of how you do your test first.

 

It was a demonstration, not a test. Your words, too.

 

You haven't asked for a better example, nor a better illustration upthread either. You claimed stuff, you got refuted, now you're moving goalposts.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Kordy

[Reshasis]

My suggestion for fixing the Dera would be to give it partial armour penetration and the ability to shoot through targets. But I'm a nobody so my opinion doesn't really matter. :-)

[Kordy]

My suggestion for fixing the Dera would be to give it partial armour penetration and the ability to shoot through targets. But I'm a nobody so my opinion doesn't really matter. :-)

 

No it does actually, because it is clear the weapon is bad if you even take a gander at its stats.

 

Abzu's point was that if you want to counter the claim of "Dera is bad", you should come up with examples. 

 

I am exaggerating on my first post - no one cares if the Dera can one shot containers of all things. But everyone in a clan that is researching this should care about Dera itself; because it costs S#&$loads of materials to research one, and a lot of materials to make one too.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Kordy

[Ksdsdf]

I guess all those 2 damages that pop out must be mirages or something.

 

Surely, after effects of my screen saver, yeah.

 

Same with the braton.

 

Don't come out with stuff like "player is suck; therefore the gun is suck" and claim they're not a point you're making. You said it, either stand behind it or leave.

If you quote, please quote the whole thing, only take a fraction out can make others misread of what i said.

The reason you might thought that "player is suck; therefore the gun is suck" was my original argument because: You were the player in the video, secondly, you missed the word " IF" Third, I did say the reason: Because the act of "spraying bullets" then it proves "the gun looks bad", which completely not the point of the demonstration.

Your example from the start is biased because of the act of "spraying bullets"

[OxexRaclir]

So why not put up an unmoded braton and illustrate it along side with an unmoded Dera?

I make a point to only purchase weapons after throughly examining them to determine if they are worth the hassle. The Dera is not. You would have to ask Kordy to preform that test.

 

And all of your questions are derived from your own mind, where as all i asked for is a better example, a better illustration, for a better, closer analysis. 

 

Kordy sprayed the braton with mods equiped, so your whole point that braton is good even if he sprays it is not valid.

Sorry about the "no argument from my part" because Kordy thought that "player is suck; therefore the gun is suck" was an argument.

 

I do not see anything here where you " (ask) for ... a better example, a better illustration, for a better, closer analysis. "  Could you point it out for me?  Or does this question exist in the same imaginary realm as your argument?

 

It's actually rather painful to attempt to converse with you any further so instead I'll fervently hope that you one day grow into a wonderful human being that can accept that the Dera is S#&$ and learn how arguments work in the presence of opposing ideas.

 

 

My suggestion for fixing the Dera would be to give it partial armour penetration and the ability to shoot through targets. But I'm a nobody so my opinion doesn't really matter. :-)

 

 

 

Giving it innate penetration would make it slightly better, though the damage is still quite low.

Edited June 4, 2013 by OxexRaclir

[DoctorLime]

Kordy is clearly trolling, the Dera is a great weapon. 

[Ksdsdf]

I make a point to only purchase weapons after throughly examining them to determine if they are worth the hassle. The Dera is not. You would have to ask Kordy to preform that test.

 

 

 

Giving it innate penetration would make it slightly better, though the damage is still quite low.

My very first post was about: the act of "spraying bullets" causes "the weapon looks bad" in the first demonstration, that's where i implied that a better example/demonstration is needed. I don't know why you can think of all the possible implication i might have made from 

Oh, did you suddenly find an argument?

 

Are you trying to assert that a modded Braton is bad when sprayed? We can be sure that that is not the case as Kordy was kind enough to show.

Or are you trying to state that a modded Dera is good when sprayed? We can be sure that that is not the case as Abzu took the time to post.

 

Or could it be that you are simply trying to move the goal post because your argument (that is, the lack there of) does not have a leg to stand on.

 

But cannot make the implication of I was asking for better example.

[SirNerdsAlot5]

Uh Ignis is pretty useful idk wqhat you're talking about.

[Grilleds]

Uh Ignis is pretty useful idk wqhat you're talking about.

Indeed. I was using it vs some mid level Corpus earlier and I didn't feel like I picked a bad weapon, even with Corpus resisting fire damage. I'm aware there are better weapons, but the Ignis is clearly the best of the R & D weapons right now and could be a very useful addition to certain loadouts.

Also building the Dera simply because it looks cool.

[Kordy]

Ignis, Grakata and Dera all suffer from low base damage / high RoF syndrome which doesn't quite work in this game due to how damage is calculated.

 

Grakata has crits going for it I guess (though I've yet to see the proof on that), Ignis does base fire damage which makes it ok against infested.

 

Then there's Ogris.

 

Fyi, Ogris is how R&D weapons should be.

 

If there is a niche, basic weapons should be a good overall example (grakata isn't, afuris is) while R&D weapons should focus on one side of the niche (dera isn't, akviper is), imo.

 

Edit: Ignis badly needs baseline penetration at least.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Kordy

[Nohra]

Ignis, Grakata and Dera all suffer from low base damage / high RoF syndrome which doesn't quite work in this game due to how damage is calculated.

The percentage increase works out fine in the end if their overall DPS is comparable to the heavy hitters.

 

What's more of a problem is ammo efficiency. Especially when rifle ammo packs are only 20 rounds. I'd much rather kill things in five to ten shots with a Gorgon than try to whittle them down with thirty from a Dera or Grakata.

[Xylia]

Energy Weapons should ignore armor IMO.

[Kordy]

The percentage increase works out fine in the end if their overall DPS is comparable to the heavy hitters.

 

What's more of a problem is ammo efficiency. Especially when rifle ammo packs are only 20 rounds. I'd much rather kill things in five to ten shots with a Gorgon than try to whittle them down with thirty from a Dera or Grakata.

 

I meant the armor, mainly. But you're right, ammo pickups, base ammo et al needs to be looked at.

 

It still doesn't save Dera though, which is this thread's main focus.

 

#occupyMars #WeWantOurDera etc etc.

[Nohra]

I meant the armor, mainly. But you're right, ammo pickups, base ammo et al needs to be looked at.

 

It still doesn't save Dera though, which is this thread's main focus.

 

#occupyMars #WeWantOurDera etc etc.

Well, of course not. The Dera would need a massive ROF increase to match the DPS of damn near anything right now, which'd just exacerbate the ammo problem.

 

I fully agree, it's a terrible gun that isn't worth the massive cost of research (and yet it's required for the Lanka and Flux Rifle), nor the massive cost of building it. All of the clan tech weapons shouldn't necessarily be best in class, so as to not punish free players or players in small clans, but they should be good.

[TennoSkoom]

So what. Grakata is sh*** at the beginning too. And later, it becomes a beast.

 

The Grakata never becomes a beast. It'd be more effective if you used it as a second melee and clubbed the enemy with it. It's the staple for crap weapons in this game. It's the poster-child for fully-automatic feather dispensers. I've tried everything with it short of wasting forma and a potato on it. I shouldn't have to potato a level 30 weapon to make it useful against content any higher than half it's level. I've tried crit builds, full damage builds, everything i could think of and every build suggested for it. You don't take a crap weapon and make it acceptable by throwing a potato on it- you take a good weapon and make it exceptional by throwing a potato on it.

 

As far as the dera goes, i'll reserve my judgement until i've tried it myself, especially considering it's accuracy looks pretty high. It may well be a full-auto headshot factory- in which case i could see why it's base damage would be low for the sake of balance.

[Roogan]

So just wondering how many people stopped to consider that all these enemy weapons we are using are so bad because they have near the same stats as they do when the enemies use them, and are not magically different just because we are using them now?

 

if they were more powerfull, all our foes would be owning us more.

 

just think if grinner could hit what they were aiming at with grakatas, or if all corpus lazer weapons ignored our armor.

 

besides, they prolly just copy pasted the enemy's damage stats for them as a placeholder. which explains the awkwardly long reloads and lack of crits

[onemoonlight]

Give it 25 damage and it will be a good sidegrade to the braton, considering not all bullets will land and firerate is the same

[TennoSkoom]

So just wondering how many people stopped to consider that all these enemy weapons we are using are so bad because they have near the same stats as they do when the enemies use them, and are not magically different just because we are using them now?

 

if they were more powerfull, all our foes would be owning us more.

 

just think if grinner could hit what they were aiming at with grakatas, or if all corpus lazer weapons ignored our armor.

 

besides, they prolly just copy pasted the enemy's damage stats for them as a placeholder. which explains the awkwardly long reloads and lack of crits

Not sure if you've noticed, but enemy weapon damage scales based on enemy level. (level 150 enemies hit heaps harder than level 15 enemies using the same weapons) Conversely player weapon damage can only be increased through modding. While your point isn't entirely without merit- you've failed to take this simple fact into consideration. Though it's already been mentioned several times in this thread i feel it needs to be said once more: DE has already stated that they are aware some of the research weapons need a buff- i expect it'll be done eventually.

[Roogan]

Not sure if you've noticed, but enemy weapon damage scales based on enemy level. (level 150 enemies hit heaps harder than level 15 enemies using the same weapons) Conversely player weapon damage can only be increased through modding. While your point isn't entirely without merit- you've failed to take this simple fact into consideration. Though it's already been mentioned several times in this thread i feel it needs to be said once more: DE has already stated that they are aware some of the research weapons need a buff- i expect it'll be done eventually.

 

 

I actually did consider that and just figured they picked whatever they consider to be its "default" or base amount, which I would assume is ether it before scaling or what the average level grinner is.

[Webly]

Dera is possibly the worst weapon in the game right now, and fits right in with a majority of the ClanTech weapons.

Even if it was a hitscan weapon, it would be outdone by a regular Latron.

[outsomnia]

How slow do those blue thingies move?

[Psyclosarin]

Aha, 

 

Another thread calling for a buff on something they haven't even maxed yet.

 

This is fking hilarious.

 

 

(n.b: before anyone says, I'm well aware they need a buff, still just seems stupid to be whining with a lvl1 weapon, also can't take anyone seriously when they say "even worse than the grakata")

Edited June 6, 2013 by Psyclosarin

[Braken]

How slow do those blue thingies move?

Slower than bolt weapons (Bolto, Boltor).

[Nohra]

Aha, 

 

Another thread calling for a buff on something they haven't even maxed yet.

 

This is fking hilarious.

 

 

(n.b: before anyone says, I'm well aware they need a buff, still just seems stupid to be whining with a lvl1 weapon, also can't take anyone seriously when they say "even worse than the grakata")

But it is worse than the Grakata. The only advantages it has over the Grakata are no recoil and perfect accuracy. The Grakata has higher damage, a better rate of fire, can crit, and crits for 200%. Hell, the Dera even reloads slower.

[InsomniacOvrLrd]

God damn people get mincy over whether or not this awful gun sucks.  What a stupid thing to fight about. It amounted to 'hey look this sucks, see how much it sucks?" "no, the way you showed that it sucks isn't good enough for me so it obviously doesn't suck".

 

Then you just went praddling on for ages about how someone missed the point, or someone did a S#&$ty job representing a S#&$ty weapon.

 

How about more people expressing either their agreement / disagreement on 'the dera sucks'.

 

I think the dera sucks. I'm sad about this because all i wanted in this game was a dumb plasma rifle that shot blue fwooshes. And now it seems that a gun that is far outside my grasp is nowhere near as good as the gun i've been lumping around for ages, and isn't even remotely worth rallying my 7 man guild into finishing our reactor. What's the point :\