Weapons/powers Will Never Be Balanced Until Armor Is Removed From The Game

[Excitonex]

Kid is right.

 

No one is whining that higher level enemies have more armor. What's being whined about is that non-bolt type weapons are like a candle in comparison to the sun(a bolt weapon) at high levels in terms of damage. This means 1 of 2 things: Either this hadn't really crossed the developers' minds, or they intended bolt type weapons to be the end-game(which I doubt since they don't require high mastery ranks).

 

Ammo boxes are nice, killing 3x as fast is even better.

 

And ancients? Really? You haven't noticed the difference between shooting them for like 8 on their body and then 36 in their weakpoint? Really?

Or more likely, they assumed people would take the right loadout for the mission. I'm sure with the introduction of more enemies we'll see some with low armor and high HP and the bolt weapons will be sub-par for these enemies.

[YummyBubbles]

Kid is right.

 

No one is whining that higher level enemies have more armor. What's being whined about is that non-bolt type weapons are like a candle in comparison to the sun(a bolt weapon) at high levels in terms of damage. This means 1 of 2 things: Either this hadn't really crossed the developers' minds, or they intended bolt type weapons to be the end-game(which I doubt since they don't require high mastery ranks).

 

Ammo boxes are nice, killing 3x as fast is even better.

 

And ancients? Really? You haven't noticed the difference between shooting them for like 8 on their body and then 36 in their weakpoint? Really?

just a quick note about your post, the reason it does 36 damage on their weakpoint is because.....it's just that......a weak point, what i mean is that a glaive does a base 150 damage on a body shot with a full charge, against ancients I've never seen that change, especially since mods on glaive still aren't 100% reliable on throw atm. In anycase I'll go dust off my ash, grab my glaive and run some infested tonight and get back to you to see if it does do different damage. if it does, then I guess I was wrong about ancients *shrug*

 

p.s. there are AP mods for a reason, and most of them reach 50% armor piercing at least.....so......yeah.........armor negation mod WOO!

 

p.p.s. before anyone makes the argues that armor piercing mods take up a lot of mods cap.......forma......you're argument is invalid, and please note that I have not once yet put a single dime into this game and I've potato'd 2 frames, 4 weapons, and forma'd my ash from once, my paris bow twice, and I still have another 3 forma on standby, because I farm alerts and void missions.....mostly alerts though ^_^, I've saved those up for months and months ^_^

[Tyrian3k]

just a quick note about your post, the reason it does 36 damage on their weakpoint is because.....it's just that......a weak point, what i mean is that a glaive does a base 150 damage on a body shot with a full charge, against ancients I've never seen that change, especially since mods on glaive still aren't 100% reliable on throw atm. In anycase I'll go dust off my ash, grab my glaive and run some infested tonight and get back to you to see if it does do different damage. if it does, then I guess I was wrong about ancients *shrug*

 

p.s. there are AP mods for a reason, and most of them reach 50% armor piercing at least.....so......yeah.........armor negation mod WOO!

 

p.p.s. before anyone makes the argues that armor piercing mods take up a lot of mods cap.......forma......you're argument is invalid, and please note that I have not once yet put a single dime into this game and I've potato'd 2 frames, 4 weapons, and forma'd my ash from once, my paris bow twice, and I still have another 3 forma on standby, because I farm alerts and void missions.....mostly alerts though ^_^, I've saved those up for months and months ^_^

 

Charge attacks of melee weapons generally ignore armor in the same way bolts do, so it's not surprising that the number doesn't change.

 

Try body hits on an ancient with e.g. an unmodded Braton. You should deal only one fourth of your damage, less if it is on high levels.

[Hollow_Knight]

Definitely needs a look.  Boltor is the best multi-purpose rifle in the game currently for exactly this reason.

[NessTV]

Make every enemy have set armor value like frames and make it not scale with level. This way armor ignore weapons will have a purpose but non armor ignoring weapons won't get useless in better missions. I had to switch Braton for Boltor ONLY because of armor ignore.

[Excitonex]

just a quick note about your post, the reason it does 36 damage on their weakpoint is because.....it's just that......a weak point, what i mean is that a glaive does a base 150 damage on a body shot with a full charge, against ancients I've never seen that change, especially since mods on glaive still aren't 100% reliable on throw atm. In anycase I'll go dust off my ash, grab my glaive and run some infested tonight and get back to you to see if it does do different damage. if it does, then I guess I was wrong about ancients *shrug*

 

p.s. there are AP mods for a reason, and most of them reach 50% armor piercing at least.....so......yeah.........armor negation mod WOO!

 

p.p.s. before anyone makes the argues that armor piercing mods take up a lot of mods cap.......forma......you're argument is invalid, and please note that I have not once yet put a single dime into this game and I've potato'd 2 frames, 4 weapons, and forma'd my ash from once, my paris bow twice, and I still have another 3 forma on standby, because I farm alerts and void missions.....mostly alerts though ^_^, I've saved those up for months and months ^_^

AP does not ignore armor. It is another elemental damage type like fire. The misinformation in this thread is amazing.

[Ghobe]

just a quick note about your post, the reason it does 36 damage on their weakpoint is because.....it's just that......a weak point, what i mean is that a glaive does a base 150 damage on a body shot with a full charge, against ancients I've never seen that change, especially since mods on glaive still aren't 100% reliable on throw atm. In anycase I'll go dust off my ash, grab my glaive and run some infested tonight and get back to you to see if it does do different damage. if it does, then I guess I was wrong about ancients *shrug*

 

p.s. there are AP mods for a reason, and most of them reach 50% armor piercing at least.....so......yeah.........armor negation mod WOO!

 

p.p.s. before anyone makes the argues that armor piercing mods take up a lot of mods cap.......forma......you're argument is invalid, and please note that I have not once yet put a single dime into this game and I've potato'd 2 frames, 4 weapons, and forma'd my ash from once, my paris bow twice, and I still have another 3 forma on standby, because I farm alerts and void missions.....mostly alerts though ^_^, I've saved those up for months and months ^_^

Besides what Tyrian said, kid, you're also clueless as to the difference between armor ignore and armor pierce. Armor pierce is an actual damage element in this game, it does NOT bypass armor. When it comes to defenses there are several types: Normal, Armor Pierce, Frost, Fire, Electrical, and Explosive.

[Aggh]

Medium Grineer have full armor on their heads, they just take triple headshot damage which means it seems like they're unarmored. It's only Ancients and Crawlers which have unarmored hit locations.

 

Of course with shotguns you can get like 90% AP and even rifles can get 60%, and Grineer take 1.5x damage from AP, so you're still doing a ton of damage if you have a high-level AP mod.

Your point?  Regardless of what type of damage you're dealing, you're always better off aiming for heads vs grineer.

[MJ12]

Your point?  Regardless of what type of damage you're dealing, you're always better off aiming for heads vs grineer.

 

My point is that you responded to him doing a damage test via center mass shots by going "stop aiming for the chest then :|" which implied you were saying shooting them in the head totally bypassed armor. It does not.

[Aggh]

My point is that you responded to him doing a damage test via center mass shots by going "stop aiming for the chest then :|" which implied you were saying shooting them in the head totally bypassed armor. It does not.

It didn't imply that it all. But thanks for putting words in my mouth :|

[MJ12]

It didn't imply that it all. But thanks for putting words in my mouth :|

 

So you reply to someone who said "look, I can show you armor scales up as level increases" by going "shoot them in their weak point then" and think this is a valid, informative post? Especially since the guy he was responding to has the same wrong information (he stated that heads don't have any armor at all)?

 

And you don't think responding to him that way implies that the head is unarmored. At all. What.

[Excitonex]

Your attacking each other's posts is not adding anything to the argument. If you don't have any valid points to bring up other than attacking the language or phrasing of another's post you should just not post. Please, lets get back to the topic at hand.

[Aggh]

So you reply to someone who said "look, I can show you armor scales up as level increases" by going "shoot them in their weak point then" and think this is a valid, informative post? Especially since the guy he was responding to has the same wrong information (he stated that heads don't have any armor at all)?

 

And you don't think responding to him that way implies that the head is unarmored. At all. What.

Nope.  It implies that heads have different damage multipliers.  Which they do.  It also implies how worthless damage values on the chest are since you should always be going for the head.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Aggh

[YummyBubbles]

AP does not ignore armor. It is another elemental damage type like fire. The misinformation in this thread is amazing.

I never said AP ignores armor now did i? I said armor negate, that's basically what said mods do, they negate the use of armor to a set point, based on how vulnerable enemies are to AP damage, which even a quick wiki check shows that tank-like enemies that are known for armor are also more vulnerable to AP damage. and I will admit that I was wrong on the front of ancients not having armor, that being said, check these out.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_Piercing

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient_Disruptor

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Runner

 

or grineer:

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Heavy_Gunner

 

warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Lancer

 

or corpus:

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Corpus_Crewman

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Fusion_Moa

 

 

my point being, is that even though weapons like the Boltor may have innate armor ignore, the use of a simple mod can easily help balance things out. Besides on a side by side comparison of the regular braton and regular boltor, the braton can easily do more DPS with a high crit chance than the boltor. add in increased accuracy over distance and the fact that the bratons bullets don't take time to travel and that means that the braton is easier to hit with, does more base damage, fires faster, and fires more accurately than the boltor. Basically the Boltors only advantage over the braton without mods is the armor ignore and it comes with 40 more bullets overall with another 15 bullets in each clip.

 

My point is this: the weapons aren't that out of balanced if you take into account all their different attributes, and some of the highest lvl people I play with prefer the braton over everything else, because non-armor piercing weapons don't take time for their bullets to travel and are more accurate, making them far easier to use accurately.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Boltor

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Braton

[Excitonex]

I never said AP ignores armor now did i? I said armor negate, that's basically what said mods do, they negate the use of armor to a set point, based on how vulnerable enemies are to AP damage, which even a quick wiki check shows that tank-like enemies that are known for armor are also more vulnerable to AP damage. and I will admit that I was wrong on the front of ancients not having armor, that being said, check these out.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_Piercing

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient_Disruptor

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Runner

 

or grineer:

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Heavy_Gunner

 

warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Lancer

 

or corpus:

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Corpus_Crewman

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Fusion_Moa

 

 

my point being, is that even though weapons like the Boltor may have innate armor ignore, the use of a simple mod can easily help balance things out. Besides on a side by side comparison of the regular braton and regular boltor, the braton can easily do more DPS with a high crit chance than the boltor. add in increased accuracy over distance and the fact that the bratons bullets don't take time to travel and that means that the braton is easier to hit with, does more base damage, fires faster, and fires more accurately than the boltor. Basically the Boltors only advantage over the braton without mods is the armor ignore and it comes with 40 more bullets overall with another 15 bullets in each clip.

 

My point is this: the weapons aren't that out of balanced if you take into account all their different attributes, and some of the highest lvl people I play with prefer the braton over everything else, because non-armor piercing weapons don't take time for their bullets to travel and are more accurate, making them far easier to use accurately.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Boltor

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Braton

You really misunderstand how the AP mod works. It doesn't affect your base damage in any way. Your base damage is still reduced by your targets armor. This damage is then increased by AP.

 

If I shoot an enemy with 0 armor with a 100 dmg gun and 90% AP I will do 190 damage.

If I shoot an enemy with 90% damage reduction from armor with the same gun and mods I will do 19 damage.

[mmSNAKE]

You really misunderstand how the AP mod works. It doesn't affect your base damage in any way. Your base damage is still reduced by your targets armor. This damage is then increased by AP.

 

If I shoot an enemy with 0 armor with a 100 dmg gun and 90% AP I will do 190 damage.

If I shoot an enemy with 90% damage reduction from armor with the same gun and mods I will do 19 damage.

 

This right here, is the argument why so many of the guns in the games don't match Hek, Dread, Snipetron, Paris etc. This is the exact reason why Grakata for example is COMPLETE trash when enemy level goes high. At least someone knows how the damage system works in this game.

[Tyrian3k]

All damage types are reduced by the respective resistance of the enemy.

 

100 damage + 90 AP + 50 fire

Against an enemy that has 100% resistance against normal damage, 50% resistance against fire damage and receives doubled damage by AP you deal 100*0 + 90*2 + 50*0.5 = 205 damage.

 

It's not that difficult to understand.

[Excitonex]

if they had 100% resistance to normal damage you would deal 0 damage with every shot. Apparently it is difficult to understand.

 

 

Edit: Excluding weapons that ignore armor or deal AP damage instead of normal damage.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Excitonex

[Ghobe]

if they had 100% resistance to normal damage you would deal 0 damage with every shot. Apparently it is difficult to understand.

 

 

Edit: Excluding weapons that ignore armor or deal AP damage instead of normal damage.

Resistance to an element is different from armor. If you never did damage when the enemy had 100% normal damage reduction then you could never kill a corpus crewman by shooting him in the face ;p

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Crewman_%28Corpus%29

Armor is different from resistance. Armor is what reduces your damage with levels.

[Excitonex]

Resistance to an element is different from armor. If you never did damage when the enemy had 100% normal damage reduction then you could never kill a corpus crewman by shooting him in the face ;p

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Crewman_%28Corpus%29

Armor is different from resistance. Armor is what reduces your damage with levels.

You are correct. I should have said damage reduction from armor, not resistance.

[YummyBubbles]

Again. I also never said it affects base damage -_-. I'm saying that through the use of a simple mod the damage is easily compensated for because enemies with a high amount of armor are usually have 100% or more vulnerability to AP. So please read my words carefully. I never said base damage or armor ignore in reference to mods. The only mod that more or less adds to base damage (meaning non elemental) is erration. So maybe try stacking serratuon and AP

[Tyrian3k]

Resistance to an element is different from armor. If you never did damage when the enemy had 100% normal damage reduction then you could never kill a corpus crewman by shooting him in the face ;p

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Crewman_%28Corpus%29

Armor is different from resistance. Armor is what reduces your damage with levels.

 

Corpus Crewmen take 0% normal damage by headshots, thus have 100% resistance to normal damage, which can also be called immunity if you want.

Other damage types are still capable of damaging the Crewman regardless of how much normal damage is actually dealt.

 

What reduces the damage on higher levels is the increased resistance per level.

 

Example: Headshot on a Heavy Grineer.

 

If you only deal normal damage, you will deal 200% - (1.0*<enemy level>)% damage to him, which means thatat level 200 you won't deal any damage any more.

 

If you deal AP damage however it is different, as this damage type doesn't suffer from increasing resistences.

If you hit a Heavy Grineer in the head with 100 AP damage it will deal 200 damage because of the 200% multiplier no matter if the Grineer is level 1 or level 1000.

 

That "armor" you people are talking about either doesn't exist or is the same as the resistance, as the elemental resistance is the only thing that affects damage and increases with the level of the enemy.

 

There are a few enemies that actually have armor that reduces all incoming damage by a percentage just like the armor on warframes does (example for this would be the Grineer Seeker), which affects every type of damage, including bolt weapons and charged melee attacks.

[Excitonex]

 

Corpus Crewmen take 0% normal damage by headshots, thus have 100% resistance to normal damage, which can also be called immunity if you want.

Other damage types are still capable of damaging the Crewman regardless of how much normal damage is actually dealt.

 

What reduces the damage on higher levels is the increased resistance per level.

 

Example: Headshot on a Heavy Grineer.

 

If you only deal normal damage, you will deal 200% - (1.0*<enemy level>)% damage to him, which means thatat level 200 you won't deal any damage any more.

 

If you deal AP damage however it is different, as this damage type doesn't suffer from increasing resistences.

If you hit a Heavy Grineer in the head with 100 AP damage it will deal 200 damage because of the 200% multiplier no matter if the Grineer is level 1 or level 1000.

 

That "armor" you people are talking about either doesn't exist or is the same as the resistance, as the elemental resistance is the only thing that affects damage and increases with the level of the enemy.

 

There are a few enemies that actually have armor that reduces all incoming damage by a percentage just like the armor on warframes does (example for this would be the Grineer Seeker), which affects every type of damage, including bolt weapons and charged melee attacks.

Thank you for clearing this up. It appears you are correct.

[Doforcash]

aww, no worry, this is why the game only IN THE OPEN BETA, let just hope later on the AD gonna fix this or Frost gonna end up be the main taget in PvP ( BTW Knife that ingor armor usually got low base dam or doesn't have crit chance, just my oppinion)

[PositronicSpleen]

I wouldn't be sad to see armor go. It's basically just an obtuse health multiplier. Scale both of them and enemies start to turn into bullet sponges even faster, and that's no good.

 

They could at least start by letting us see enemy resistance values in-game rather than having us resort to a wiki that may or may not be completely accurate.