Ignis Isn't A Flamethrower

[mmSNAKE]

Want a game with realistic bullet physics?

Try S.T.A.L.K.E.R. or maybe ArmA (not sure about ArmA).

 

Also, aren't the research weapons sort-of placeholders in some cases?

I mean, they're pretty much still alpha...

 

I can see arma but Stalker not so much. It's close but still not the real thing. For one every bullet is a lot slower in Stalker to give you visual feedback. A lot of games do that. Also the sound is wrong as well. Stalker games are fun as hell though.

[Cerebrawl]

For one every bullet is a lot slower in Stalker to give you visual feedback.

Not that much, even out to 500 meters I could still manage headshots on moving targets. Sure I had to aim 2 meters above and 4 meters to the side to compensate for drop and travel time, but it could be done. Traveltime for that is under a second, perhaps half a second. That's about 1000 m/s or 3300 ft/s. This is actually on the high side for an assault rifle. I was using the GP 37. Let's say it took slightly more than half a second, let's say the bullet velocity was 3000 ft/s. That's the muzzle velocity of the H&K G36 that the GP 37 is an unlicenced copy of(devs/pubs didn't spring for the rights to use the real name).

[mmSNAKE]

Not that much, even out to 500 meters I could still manage headshots on moving targets. Sure I had to aim 2 meters above and 4 meters to the side to compensate for drop and travel time, but it could be done. Traveltime for that is under a second, perhaps half a second. That's about 1000 m/s or 3300 ft/s. This is actually on the high side for an assault rifle. I was using the GP 37. Let's say it took slightly more than half a second, let's say the bullet velocity was 3000 ft/s. That's the muzzle velocity of the H&K G36 that the GP 37 is an unlicenced copy of(devs/pubs didn't spring for the rights to use the real name).

 

I can suppose I can pretend I'm constantly shooting tracer rounds :P

 

Also the reason I say this is because it's difficult to gauge what distance should be in the game. Think of it this way. How long would it take you to run from one side of the map to another. Few minutes say (Call of Prypyat). A lot of instance the actual distance said in the game feels too short, which in term wouldn't correspond well with the round velocity. For example. You shoot from one side of shadowsk to another (length wise). You can see your round travel. I dunno but when I fire a 5.56 or 7.62 (either x39 or x51). The velocity is way too fast for me to see for that distance using normal rounds. That is only what? 100m? I understand seeing a .45ACP. I've seen arcs on that on distance much shorter than 100m, but a the other calibers. I dunno. It doesn't correlate to how guns responded when I shot them in reality. Still it's much better than what large majority of games do.

 

But again you don't need proper gun ballistics to make a game fun. Counter Strike, everything is hitscan, yet the game is fantastic.

[mogamu]

I'm adding Alien Swarm to the list of shooters with good flamethrowers.

 

YES i agree.

I wanted to bring up the Alien Swarm flamethrower but I wasnt sure how many people had actually played that game

DE devs need to go check that out.  Honestly, that was what I was expecting.

[mmSNAKE]

YES i agree.

I wanted to bring up the Alien Swarm flamethrower but I wasnt sure how many people had actually played that game

DE devs need to go check that out.  Honestly, that was what I was expecting.

LMAO

 

I team killed my friends too much on accident and they banned me from using the flamethrower.

[ValhaHazred]

The devs would need to add liquid physics to the game to make that work, which is way too much effort for one weapon.

I don't mean litteraly splash. I think the easiest way to program it would be for the flame "projectiles" to have gravity (the bow, knives and new toxic grenade already do this) and when it hits anything it makes a fire AOE with appropriate animations. It would be nice if they could have the napalm stream "bounce" off walls, but I don't know if anything ingame can do that.

[InFlames]

 

A good sniper? S.T.A.L.K.E.R. (gauss rifle), Quake 3 Arena, UT2k4

 

 That shouldn't even be considered a sniper, as you discover in the game history that it's a prototype energy cannon with a scope attached to it.

Therefore the real snipers of S.T.A.L.K.E.R. were the SVD's and the Vintorez, and those would be very good snipers because it gives them a realistic feel, unlike the Gauss Rifle.

[mmSNAKE]

 That shouldn't even be considered a sniper, as you discover in the game history that it's a prototype energy cannon with a scope attached to it.

Therefore the real snipers of S.T.A.L.K.E.R. were the SVD's and the Vintorez, and those would be very good snipers because it gives them a realistic feel, unlike the Gauss Rifle.

 

Realistic has nothing to do with fun. I am well aware of the actual rifles in the game. Gauss Rifle was the one that was most fun for a long ranged scoped weapon.

[UncommonUnicorn]

Actually, if you read the history on that gauss gun better, you'd know that it is infact a coilgun powered by flash artifact fragments.

It also has the highest muzzle velocity in the game (10k or so iirc).

 

The EM1 Rifle from Clear Sky is a different gun with a different history.

[mmSNAKE]

Clear Sky was blah. SoC and CoP were both outstanding though.

[InFlames]

Actually, if you read the history on that gauss gun better, you'd know that it is infact a coilgun powered by flash artifact fragments.

It also has the highest muzzle velocity in the game (10k or so iirc).

 

The EM1 Rifle from Clear Sky is a different gun with a different history.

 

You only proved that i was correct.

 

Realistic has nothing to do with fun. I am well aware of the actual rifles in the game. Gauss Rifle was the one that was most fun for a long ranged scoped weapon.

 

If you can't think on the average weapon as a fun to use weapon just because it doesn't 1-shot everything then your playing the game the wrong way.

[Yawyna124]

I don't mean litteraly splash. I think the easiest way to program it would be for the flame "projectiles" to have gravity (the bow, knives and new toxic grenade already do this) and when it hits anything it makes a fire AOE with appropriate animations. It would be nice if they could have the napalm stream "bounce" off walls, but I don't know if anything ingame can do that.

Kinda like with what the Napalm grineers do, except with a steady stream, less (no) explosiveness, and a quicker rate of fire?

 

By napalm grineers, I mean the ones that are big, red and shoot big fire projectiles at you.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Yawyna124

[mmSNAKE]

You only proved that i was correct.

 

 

If you can't think on the average weapon as a fun to use weapon just because it doesn't 1-shot everything then your playing the game the wrong way.

 

What is fun, and how one plays the game is sort of subjective, not wrong.

[ValhaHazred]

Kinda like with what the Napalm grineers do, except with a steady stream, less (no) explosiveness, and a quicker rate of fire?

 

By napalm grineers, I mean the ones that are big, red and shoot big fire projectiles at you.

Exactly!

[austinrelis]

It's a flamethrower to me

 

Shoots flames

 

IT SPITS HOT FIRE

 

Edited June 7, 2013 by austinrelis

[ScorpDK]

The IGNIS needs:

- the ability to hurt EVERYTHING the flames touch. If the flame only slightly touches an enemy, sure, reduced damage but still damage done.

- fire goes through everyone, and only solid objects and walls can stop/redirect the flames.

- proper feedback to if and when you're doing damage (tho, if the two above are fixed/implemented, then you probably don't have to wonder if you're actually doing something to the enemy)

- its own mod that increases the range and/or another stat of the flamethrower to make it more viable in higher level missions. Hell, it could blind enemies or something (as it pretty much blinds the player, given how hard it is to see through the bloody flames :P)

[Cerebrawl]

I can suppose I can pretend I'm constantly shooting tracer rounds :P

 

Also the reason I say this is because it's difficult to gauge what distance should be in the game. Think of it this way. How long would it take you to run from one side of the map to another. Few minutes say (Call of Prypyat). A lot of instance the actual distance said in the game feels too short, which in term wouldn't correspond well with the round velocity. For example. You shoot from one side of shadowsk to another (length wise). You can see your round travel. I dunno but when I fire a 5.56 or 7.62 (either x39 or x51). The velocity is way too fast for me to see for that distance using normal rounds. That is only what? 100m? I understand seeing a .45ACP. I've seen arcs on that on distance much shorter than 100m, but a the other calibers. I dunno. It doesn't correlate to how guns responded when I shot them in reality. Still it's much better than what large majority of games do.

 

But again you don't need proper gun ballistics to make a game fun. Counter Strike, everything is hitscan, yet the game is fantastic.

Btw, one of the rifles in that game that will give you a slow bullet feeling is probably the VSK(VSS) Vintorez sniper rifle... but the real life version fires subsonic bullets, 290 m/s / 951 ft/s. They're supposed to be slow(the 500 meter shot will take over 2 seconds to arrive for the real life rifle). There's a matching assault rifle ingame as well, same thing. 9x39 subsonic bullets.

 

But yes, the tracer effect is gamey, even if the ballistics are pretty realistic.

[matrixEXO]

It might look like one, but all it is is a short range fire-bullet gun.

It is LITERALLY single target, with NO AoE or innate puncture.  Even with maxed out puncture, it still doesn't feel like a good flamethrower.

 

Flamethrowers in video games that feel good have

-Cone of fire that can hit multiple side by side

-Go through or envelop enemies so completely that it hits enemies behind it

-High damage

-Very short range

-High ammo consumption

 

Also I question whether the Ignis really has the 125 listed damage, even on Infested it barely does more damage than a similarly fitted Grakata.

Cone of fire, ok.

Go through or envelop enemies so it hits enemies behind it, wha? Seriously? If a person were to body-block a flamethrower in real life, would you really think it would go through them to hit enemies behind them? Geez.

High damage, not quite. High DoT is more like it.

Very short range, go check youtube for the flamethrower ranges. I like it when it's 40m in real life (thick napalm fuel).

High ammo consumption, does it already.

 

The listed 125 is (following are assumptions) on 1 second DoT, single ticks are far less than that.

 

Sorry, I don't like comparing it to other games cause those are their depiction of how the Flamethrower works. DE does it their way and closely resembles real life, which is good. Still needs a cone of fire though.

Edited June 7, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Webly]

Cone of fire, ok.

Go through or envelop enemies so it hits enemies behind it, wha? Seriously? If a person were to body-block a flamethrower in real life, would you really think it would go through them to hit enemies behind them? Geez.

High damage, not quite. High DoT is more like it.

Very short range, go check youtube for the flamethrower ranges. I like it when it's 40m in real life (thick napalm fuel).

High ammo consumption, does it already.

 

The listed 125 is (following are assumptions) on 1 second DoT, single ticks are far less than that.

 

Sorry, I don't like comparing it to other games cause those are their depiction of how the Flamethrower works. DE does it their way and closely resembles real life, which is good. Still needs a cone of fire though.

 

Why the hell are you suggesting things need to be 100% accurate in a video game about spaceninjas?  I just want it to be fun to use.

 

What actually exists in real life and what is fun in a video game are not always (if ever) the same thing.

I explicitly said "Flamethrowers in video games that feel good have" X.  There's really no testing to show how much fun a 100% true to life flamethrower would be in a videogame, and the Ignis certainly isn't 100% true to life.

What I'm suggesting is that they use game flamethrower mechanics that are already known to feel really good.

[matrixEXO]

Why the hell are you suggesting things need to be 100% accurate in a video game about spaceninjas?  I just want it to be fun to use.

 

What actually exists in real life and what is fun in a video game are not always (if ever) the same thing.

I explicitly said "Flamethrowers in video games that feel good have" X.  There's really no testing to show how much fun a 100% true to life flamethrower would be in a videogame, and the Ignis certainly isn't 100% true to life.

What I'm suggesting is that they use game flamethrower mechanics that are already known to feel really good.

Rhino's Iron Skin was fun to use and felt good. Then it got reworked. Deal with it.

 

Besides that, the major issue with Ignis is how it DOESN'T do some things that it should. Give it a DoT application system which stacks on each other and Ignis would roll faces. It just needs to apply some DoT on each damage tick.

 

I never said 100% true to life, nor did I explicitly say that. I just said "closely resembles real life", but not "exactly the same as real life" because obviously, game balance.

 

Personally never tried it out myself (since I left my ex-clan before it finished Ignis) but after the videos that I see online, it is a really fun weapon. Feeling good is normally easily associated with feeling powerful, which also can be associated with the term overpowered. Not all "feel good" scenarios are like that but normally is so. Try potatoing and resetting it a few times then slap those damage mods on it. You obviously will feel good.

 

Like I said, it would be much better with a DoT mechanic on it other than on-hit damage. Cone of fire? Sure, no harm having a small cone of fire on it. Anything else is not really needed.

Edited June 7, 2013 by matrixEXO

[mmSNAKE]

Btw, one of the rifles in that game that will give you a slow bullet feeling is probably the VSK(VSS) Vintorez sniper rifle... but the real life version fires subsonic bullets, 290 m/s / 951 ft/s. They're supposed to be slow(the 500 meter shot will take over 2 seconds to arrive for the real life rifle). There's a matching assault rifle ingame as well, same thing. 9x39 subsonic bullets.

 

But yes, the tracer effect is gamey, even if the ballistics are pretty realistic.

 

I know that one uses subsonic rounds,  no sonic boom after the suppression. I wasn't referring to that one. i was referring to regular 5.56 rifles. Reason I brought up .45ACP because that is subsonic as well. I might be able to see that one, but for the length of the ship I shouldn't see an arc of a 5.56.

 

The ballistics aren't exactly fully realistic, but compared to what other games do it's a hell of a lot closer. Also that is a SP game where MP doesn't work as well. But there are other issues there.

 

Arguing realism in this game is difficult and almost pointless. Most you can argue here is balance for the game.

Edited June 7, 2013 by mmSNAKE

[Webly]

Added the "picture" to the original post.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Webly

[Taranis49]

Cone of fire, ok.

Go through or envelop enemies so it hits enemies behind it, wha? Seriously? If a person were to body-block a flamethrower in real life, would you really think it would go through them to hit enemies behind them? Geez.

High damage, not quite. High DoT is more like it.

Very short range, go check youtube for the flamethrower ranges. I like it when it's 40m in real life (thick napalm fuel).

High ammo consumption, does it already.

 

The listed 125 is (following are assumptions) on 1 second DoT, single ticks are far less than that.

 

Sorry, I don't like comparing it to other games cause those are their depiction of how the Flamethrower works. DE does it their way and closely resembles real life, which is good. Still needs a cone of fire though.

 

I've covered this in the previous thread; fire does this thing called "spread", there's a reason flamethrowers were primarily used for clearing guys out of things like bunkers or holes. People also tend not to do all that well when the temperature of the surrounding air just went up a few hundred degrees either.

 

There's a difference between "short-ranged" and "melee weapon that uses ammo"; the Ignis is currently the latter - range on it is less than 10m, a melee ground pound has similar range and passes through cover to boot.

 

If you think the Ignis "closely resembles real life", I'm sorry, but you either don't know what you're talking about and/or you've never used the thing. And don't even get me started on the fact that the Ignis is affected by Ruk's bullet attractor: are fires magnetic too?

Edited June 15, 2013 by Taranis49

[ScorpDK]

Try potatoing and resetting it a few times then slap those damage mods on it. You obviously will feel good.

The main issue for that is that the Ignis levels very slowly because it handles so terribly bad. Considering it is basically a Grakata with fire effects and a range of 10 feet (which makes it useless against any Heavy Grineer due to their cheaty shockwave),

 

 

It needs a sizable cone-shaped AoE that goes around enemies (as flames tend to do), Damage-over-time and increased range to be effective against anything that isn't a low-level Infested charger/walker

[Notso]

I hate to do this but...

 

Ignis looks like a flamethrower to me.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Notso