Alright So My Reactions To Warframe After 100 Some Hours Of Play.

[hashinshin]

Alright ignore the entire carpal tunnel argument:

 

Does anyone think that the removal of annoyance brought by a button you could hold down to auto-fire/auto-melee would in any way be a bad thing? Does anyone think "hell no that'd remove the skill of clicking the left mouse button repeatedly and I won't have it!" 

[RyojinOrion]

Alright ignore the entire carpal tunnel argument:

 

Does anyone think that the removal of annoyance brought by a button you could hold down to auto-fire/auto-melee would in any way be a bad thing? Does anyone think "hell no that'd remove the skill of clicking the left mouse button repeatedly and I won't have it!" 

 

For it to be a removal of annoyance, it would have to be an annoyance. To me, it is not an annoyance.

 

 

 

You know, it makes sense to me for a semi-automatic weapon to be controlled in a semi-automatic way. If I were to pick up any semi-automatic pistol, I would expect it to fire once for every time I pulled the trigger, not for it to fire repeatedly for me holding the trigger down.

[hashinshin]

It also makes sense for an assault rifle to pretty much trump any other kind of weaponry but we have to give up some realities to get a fun game. 

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

It also makes sense for an assault rifle to pretty much trump any other kind of weaponry but we have to give up some realities to get a fun game. 

And compared to real life, assault rifles are pretty overpowered in this game. For one, they wouldn't hit anything if the recoil were properly balanced alongside their damage, secondly you'd burn through ammo in mere seconds and wouldn't be able to carry more than three clips. Third, there's no jamming and no misfires either. So really, I do agree, we do have to give up quite a lot of realism in order to enjoy this game.

[Ghobe]

Alright ignore the entire carpal tunnel argument:

 

Does anyone think that the removal of annoyance brought by a button you could hold down to auto-fire/auto-melee would in any way be a bad thing? Does anyone think "hell no that'd remove the skill of clicking the left mouse button repeatedly and I won't have it!" 

Kind of. When it comes to semi-automatic you're supposed to be re-aiming between each trigger pull. I'm against turning my semi-automatic into full automatic. The real solution here should be to start adding double-edged mods(increased accuracy for lower fire rate for example). I don't feel like the weapons are at a fire rate that I can't keep up with even when fully relaxed and being lazy(hell I can easily push a button over 7x a second when I'm like that, ~12x if I'm just being stupid about the speed(though funnily it's probably better for my hand to do it that way too xD)). Not totally sure what fire rate actually translates to in this game, but it's certainly not fire rate/second.

 

And your calling L4D easy makes me question how you could even find enjoyment in this game. If you or your group of friends are so good at co-op that you can beat L4D on the hardest difficulty trivially then Warframe must be like holding a magnifying glass up to ants.

I could solo the hardest difficulty, my friends, they can't do it even with a full group(would I call them pro? No). Though enjoyment doesn't come strictly from challenge either there, bub.

[RyojinOrion]

It also makes sense for an assault rifle to pretty much trump any other kind of weaponry

 

 

I disagree. That is all about the context and opinion. How automatic and semi-automatic weapons fire is not so open to context and opinion.

[DeadlyNerd]

Your argument about Diablo 3, CS, Dota, LoL, HoN, SC, and SC2 makes absolutely no sense at all. Warframe is the only game where you have to repeatedly hold down the wasd movement keys (and jump/crouch keys as well if you like going faster) and also the mouse keys for firing since there's so many enemies to take down. In Diablo 3, mouse handles both movement and attacking, whilst spells are just periodically used by the left hand. In CS, you hardly hold the trigger for more than 2 seconds due to recoil, and there are also a lot of opportunities for camping and strategy rather than in warframe where you just want to keep going forward. In MOBA games, again mouse handles movement and auto-attacking, and rarely do you ever have to spam spells with your left hand or have to hold wasd keys. And finally while RTS games do utilise the mouse a lot, but the left-hand is spared, only used for shortcuts and control group functions. 

 

Please don't ridicule the carpel tunnel issue as Warframe does seem to be a very clicking/finger-intensive game... 

So basically you're saying that by sparing 1 hand you're completely safe against carpal tunnel?

FYI all MOBA gamers do at least 100 clicks per minute, not to mention that in DotA you have to manually attack your own and enemy creeps to either deny/get kills.

The fact that you don't hold the mouse button down for more than 2 sec in CS is the reason for rapid clicking. Also, no self respecting pro in CS will hold down his mouse button for automatic fire.

Also, WoW, which I haven't mentioned, is 10x more click intensive than this game, yet nobody seems to be complaining because they know their voices will never be heard due to the fact that the game is too big for their insignificant opinions.

 

Carpal tunnels are in both wrists and just that justifies my argument.

 

If you don't like the manic clicking and holding down shift key, then slow down, relax and stop rushing all the time if you're so afraid of the consequences.

 

EVERY game today is a click fest, keyboard wise or mouse, so if you don't like it, don't play it.

 

 

 

None of that invalidates the point... <.<

 

All of that invalidates many points as he isn't playing the game the way it's meant to be played. ANY opinion is invalid and pointless the moment one stops using the product as it's supposed to be used.

That is why user manuals are there, so one can't complain that his dishwasher can't wash his pants.

 

If you're playing a casual game as a hardcore player and not liking it, it's your own fault for playing the game in the first place.

 

As for playing the game, I didn't spend a dime until I was completely sure I'll be going further than 2 warframes and 12 weapons.

OP spent $60 on a game without even considering the possibility of end game not suiting his style. That is his problem, not the game's.

 

Edited June 6, 2013 by DeadlyNerd

[RedFaceGeneral]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/insane

 

No really, when I said truly insane, I really meant it. But if you've got nothing else to do, why not start one just for the hell of it?

 

LOL ok.

 

OP you heard the man. Start farming for your Dojo materials with 4 players, i bet you'll enjoy the game for the next 300 hours.

[RyojinOrion]

 

All of that invalidates many points as he isn't playing the game the way it's meant to be played. ANY opinion is invalid and pointless the moment one stops using the product as it's supposed to be used.

That is why user manuals are there, so one can't complain that his dishwasher can't wash his pants.

 

If you're playing a casual game as a hardcore player and not liking it, it's your own fault for playing the game in the first place.

 

As for playing the game, I didn't spend a dime until I was completely sure I'll be going further than 2 warframes and 12 weapons.

OP spent $60 on a game without even considering the possibility of end game not suiting his style. That is his problem, not the game's.

 

The way the game is meant to be played? Unless you're a developer, you aren't really in any position to say how the game is meant to be played. At any rate, just because he currently has only two maxed frames and 12 weapons, yet has dropped money on the game, doesn't mean he plays it wrong, and it certainly doesn't invalidate his opinion that there is little to no replay value. To claim otherwise is just silly.

[ZWarhammer]

I have two level 30 Warframes, foundered the gamer, put in $20 more to buy stuff, and have like 20 weapons. If my opinion isn't valid then Warframe is gonna have a bad time, keep that in mind. In no particular order, but starting with Forma:

 

Forma:  This is a MASSIVE problem because it's giving substantial power to people that have been playing a very long time, while new players to the game will find a huge hump between content once content is pumped out for the forma players. Either you don't push out content that is challenging for massed forma'd weapons (ensuring that once you forma up a weapon it trivializes the game) or you DO push out content for it and new players find that they suddenly need to farm for 50+ hours to continue to progress. Additionally it causes massive issues with powercreep, and completely removing using anything but max ranked mods for every slot. I've seen things like this before in many games and it's just such an issue. Maybe not now. Maybe not in a month. But once people who have weapons capable of absurd damage start just chewing through everything in front of them we're going to have to address it, or we don't address it and just say once you forma up your weapons and give them 8 max rank mods that that's the end of the game and you win.

 

Personally I assumed that getting a weapon to level 30, getting it mods, and getting it a potato was the end game, but Forma is now apparently the end-er game. And now we have prime variants of weapons coming out we'll have to do this to too? Which mechanic is your end game mechanic exactly, you can't just keep adding multiple layers of grind on top of each other. World of Warcraft might make you grind one dungeon to get the gear to grind another, but after ~3 dungeons the expansion comes out and all new players get put on the old player's level. How will Warframe do that? Will prime versions of all old weapons come out, or will the level cap raise to 40 and at 40 all new types of weapons appear that massively out do that old weapons and we restart the grind? Or do we just keep going with what we've got and new players realize the hurdle they have to overcome and get discouraged? 

 

Replay value: Where is my replay value? I havn't yet beaten eeeeverything so there's still stuff to do, but I find myself constantly leveling new weapons just so I don't finish the game fully and get bored with it. Since you can't ever "restart" with a new alt (warframe) and instead have all the planets still unlocks there's really no replay value. I'd really like it if you made it so that new Warframes started at the beginning and maybe couldn't use the biggest weapons yet so there was some reason to play through the game again. I'm afraid the amount of time you can play and enjoy Warframe is going to be very small compared to games like Path of Exile or Diablo 2 simply because there's no replay... at all. 

 

Sentinels: Really wish these weren't added... but they were added so alright. Feels really dumb though to be a space ninja sneaking around with R2D2 hovering over your shoulder. Plus in an extremely serious game this feels comical at best. I'm shooting up the clone army of grineer invaders with my best friend the flying cube bot! It's like a bad 80's cartoon. 

 

In game tooltips: Can you please stop hiding information from the player so we can make actual informed decisions with our money? I want crit, crit damage, charge damage, actual fire rate, actual attack speed, any elemental damage it might have, any armor piercing it might have, and a general guess at how ammo efficient it might be to be listed on the weapon. I also want any special effects of the weapon to be laid out in plain english. "THE KUNAI DO NOT ALERT ENEMIES" like that.

 

Ammo efficiency: Why is this even a thing? If your weapon is more ammo efficient it should have less ammo in packs, and if it's less ammo efficient it should have more ammo in packs. I can shoot at a wall for a minute with my Hek and still be perfectly okay with ammo, but use my Gorgon for anything at all and it's out of ammo. This is a terribly uninteresting balance mechanic if it's being used for balance, but I suspect it's more of just an oversight that has never been addressed. While I can understand some weapons being ammo inefficient when you have so many weapons that people won't look at cause X weapon is just as good as Y weapon except it doesn't run out of ammo...

 

Melee weapon balance: Come on. This is the one part of the game that just sucks. Everything else about the game ranges from good to great, this sucks. Melee weapon balance is so freakin terrible it should practically be it's own patch. I mean, so many SO MANY melee weapons are just downright terrible while the ones that are good are SOOO much better than the ones that are bad that it's insane. I used the dual ether for the first time and I was like "oh THIS is what melee is supposed to be like!" See I had been using the Jaw Sword I got in an alert and got the idea that melee was just overall a terrible last resort, and then my Dual Ether and Amphis taught me that no, melee is awesome.

 

Melee versus Grineer. I'm not alone in thinking that basic attacks (not charged attacks) being useless on normal weapons (read: Not the good weapons) against the Grineer is lame. People want to do those stylish animation comboes you guys have coded in, not just spam Charge attacks. I'd say that honestly a rework should be in order here of all melee weapons such that they all generally ignore armor or have a way for their regular attacks to be useful. And overall I'd like to see regular swings see like a 10-20% damage increase anyway.

 

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome: This game has a really bad case of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. After a couple hours of using my Dual Zoren I just couldn't keep using them, I had to swap to a weapon with good charge attacks. Honestly that's just wrong. I'd really like to see a "auto melee" button that you can just hold down and it'll continuously do your melee attacks. Additionally many pistols have a severe case of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome that needs to be addressed, primarily the dual semi-autos (although the dual broncos not so much.) Having your fingers in pain after use shouldn't be something a game should strive for, nor should it be a balancing mechanic. I mean blech. I love my Aklatos but I'm not going to use a weapon where in 40 years I'm going to be asking myself "was it worth it?"

 

While other games might have similiar Carpal Tunnel Syndrome style weapons the sheer amount of clicking you have to do in Warframe sets it apart. Clicking 6+ times per enemey with Aklatos or clicking 100 times when trying to kill an Ancient with Dual Ether is just wrooong. It might be good, but it's just wrooong to do that to your players. Warframe is practically non stop action for 20 minutes of mission time which really sets it apart from other FPS's with this style of weapon. Counter Strike has the duals but clicking 4-5 times once per 5 minutes is WAYYYY different. Warframe really needs to realize it's a dungeon crawler and having Carpal Tunnel Syndrome weapons in a dungeon crawler is just wrong. Even Diablo didn't make you click more than twice per enemy, and for the majority of the game you clicked once per enemy and just held the button down till they died (but most often they died in a single hit.) 

 

Game difficulty: This game really needs a hardmode, and needs to get much harder sooner. After 2 planets of basically clearing trash (which takes like 5+ hours mind you) my friends just quit and said the game was just run-gun-repeat. It was only through me continuing on that I found that sometimes the game sorta kinda can become difficult, sometimes. Excessive easiness is a turn off for a lot of people, and this game definitely has that. With the first two words practically trying to avoid killing the player it gets... tedious.

 

The first three missions should serve as Tutorial, and the first boss should be a good stepping stone, but it feels like it takes a good 5 hours for the game to even try to kill you, and that's when you stop running up to everything and meleeing it with no self preservation in mind. In fact the biggest hurdle seems to be that nobody takes the game serious at all and that can finally cause you to die... maybe. Using powers wisely, using cover, nobody even does it because the game's difficulty is so low that nobody cares. And when the game DOES become difficult it's such a sharp spike that often I see puggies or my friends just flapping around on the ground not knowing what to do, being so used to just running and gunning through all content. 

 

I don't know how to express this enough. This game lacks the feeling of overcoming a challenge and it makes for lame gameplay. Left4Dead was ALWAYS trying to kill the player and didn't hold back. It was given zombies, zombies with powers, and it tried its best within its ability to kill you. Warframe lacks the ability to kill you. Grineer can try really hard, but they're simply ineffective. Which is a shame since their AI appears to be pretty good. 

 

Keep overleveled people out of low level groups. There comes a certain point when enemies of a level range no longer phase you. Anything below level 20 generally can't harm a max level warframe to any degree of success. So why is it throwing people in to games where clearly they're just going to annihilate everything for everyone there and kind of trivialize and remove the fun from the game? Me and my friend were working on Hek for a good 2 minutes when somebody loads in, blows him away in like 5 seconds, and that was that. This is too common. 

 

Corpus/Infected. While Grineer use tactics and troop composition to try to defeat you, Corpus tries to just overwhelm you with so much ranged damage + HP that you can't stop em, and infected try to just stunlock you. It's somewhat disturbing that Grineer are so well made and fun to face, while Infected only remain fun because shooting zombies never gets old. Again bringing up Left4Dead it feels as if the infected are just trying the lamest way possible to win the game. Left4Dead tried to kill you but it was fun about it, infected just try to stunlock you as much as possible as fast as possible with every attack. 

 

It might not be an effective strategy but it's still a boring one. And yes while certain Left4Dead enemies did stun you it encouraged teammates to come shoot the hunter off you or etc. In Warframe every enemy tries to stunlock you so you just shoot... everything. You can't really say you helped your teammate by shooting everything. 

 

Throw some different styles of play at us. Make Moas spawn infinitely until we kill the constructers Gauntlet style. Make using block more important against the infected and give them more powerful yet less frequent attacks so that proper counterplay is rewarded. Do something other than more stuns + more damage. I think the poll makes it VERY obvious that the Grineer are the most fun to fight, the infected aren't really fun to fight but zombies are cool to shoot, and there's very little going on to make Corpus fun. (Poll at http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Enemies with ~8000 votes.)

 

You guys created the Grineer so I know you know how to make a fun enemy. Make the shield Osprey no longer do a massive AoE shield to just make a deathball of Corpus but make it give a super shield to one unit, say a shockwave Moa as it runs up forcing you to kill the Osprey behind it. Let Crewmen set up shields that block bullets or give them a wall to hide behind. Make regular Moas... honestly do anything interesting. Constructors that spawn Moas until destroyed seems the most interesting idea you can do. 

 

And what's more make Security Cameras less of an annoying and more of a game element. Maybe destroying them has actual consequences and making your way through the building unseen by them has benefits? Right now they're just a target to shoot or something to walk in front to get your allies hit by the laser fence since that's always funny. The Heavy Gunner pins you down while a trooper moves in to blast you with a shotgun, that's fun to fight. The giant death ball of stuns and shields coming at you? Not so much. The infected trying to just stunlock you to death until you manage to dodgeroll away? Not so much.

I have over 450 hours of gameplay and thanks to RNG i still have the same access to new content as a person who just logged in!

If forma did't exist then there would't be any point to playing this game for extensive amounts of time it's PVE it only makes sense if you have mroe power than a player just starting and even then if you just get 4 potatoes and 12 forma you can max your gear out! 

So yeah go play some more xD you're still a newbie

[D3thpool]

Hashinshin?

like the one from LoL?

ur this? the writing seems familiar....

 

+1 from me tough

Edited June 6, 2013 by D3thpool

[alocrius]

+1 Thanks for putting your thoughts down.  Lots of valid points made.  The highlights for me were Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and lack of difficulty/replayability.  I sure with I could use my Akbolto's but its not worth the damage it would definitely do physically.  Not holding my breath for that to be fixed.  I can't help but feel if DE played their game they would know some of these things need addressed yesterday.

Edited June 7, 2013 by alocrius

[RyojinOrion]

 I can't help but feel if DE played their game they would know some of these things need addressed yesterday.

 

Pretty sure they do play the game.

[Excitonex]

+1 Thanks for putting your thoughts down.  Lots of valid points made.  The highlights for me were Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and lack of difficulty/replayability.  I sure with I could use my Akbolto's but its not worth the damage it would definitely do physically.  Not holding my breath for that to be fixed.  I can't help but feel if DE played their game they would know some of these things need addressed yesterday.

This is the exact reason why DE will not ban macros. If you have a problem with CTS I suggest you look into a keyboard and mouse that will allow you to macro.

 

Edit: The Akboltos's will be extra fun for you because you will get a much better/consistent fire rate than non-macro users like myself.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Excitonex

[MJ12]

Oh no, not another thread going "zomg this game is too easy you don't need to take cover".

Please can we pretend for a moment that there are valid ways to design a shooter other than Gears Of War? Because we know we all like GoW but that doesn't mean it's the only way to make a game. Especially when the game is practically selling itself as the anti-GoW.

Some of his other points are silly, like complaining that future space special forces ninjas have the temerity to bring along drones as support, and yes, there are plenty of good observations like how the game needs less carpal tunnel and more variety but I can't help commenting on the nitpicking and the problem with balancing so it's "necessary" to take cover in a shooter where they explicitly talk about how they rejected having a cover system due to the speed the game should move at.

[RyojinOrion]

 Because we know we all like GoW

 

I don't... :(

[tastycakes5]

I have two level 30 Warframes, foundered the gamer, put in $20 more to buy stuff, and have like 20 weapons. If my opinion isn't valid then Warframe is gonna have a bad time, keep that in mind. In no particular order, but starting with Forma:

 

Forma:  This is a MASSIVE problem because it's giving substantial power to people that have been playing a very long time, while new players to the game will find a huge hump between content once content is pumped out for the forma players. Either you don't push out content that is challenging for massed forma'd weapons (ensuring that once you forma up a weapon it trivializes the game) or you DO push out content for it and new players find that they suddenly need to farm for 50+ hours to continue to progress. Additionally it causes massive issues with powercreep, and completely removing using anything but max ranked mods for every slot. I've seen things like this before in many games and it's just such an issue. Maybe not now. Maybe not in a month. But once people who have weapons capable of absurd damage start just chewing through everything in front of them we're going to have to address it, or we don't address it and just say once you forma up your weapons and give them 8 max rank mods that that's the end of the game and you win.

 

Personally I assumed that getting a weapon to level 30, getting it mods, and getting it a potato was the end game, but Forma is now apparently the end-er game. And now we have prime variants of weapons coming out we'll have to do this to too? Which mechanic is your end game mechanic exactly, you can't just keep adding multiple layers of grind on top of each other. World of Warcraft might make you grind one dungeon to get the gear to grind another, but after ~3 dungeons the expansion comes out and all new players get put on the old player's level. How will Warframe do that? Will prime versions of all old weapons come out, or will the level cap raise to 40 and at 40 all new types of weapons appear that massively out do that old weapons and we restart the grind? Or do we just keep going with what we've got and new players realize the hurdle they have to overcome and get discouraged? 

 

Replay value: Where is my replay value? I havn't yet beaten eeeeverything so there's still stuff to do, but I find myself constantly leveling new weapons just so I don't finish the game fully and get bored with it. Since you can't ever "restart" with a new alt (warframe) and instead have all the planets still unlocks there's really no replay value. I'd really like it if you made it so that new Warframes started at the beginning and maybe couldn't use the biggest weapons yet so there was some reason to play through the game again. I'm afraid the amount of time you can play and enjoy Warframe is going to be very small compared to games like Path of Exile or Diablo 2 simply because there's no replay... at all. 

 

Sentinels: Really wish these weren't added... but they were added so alright. Feels really dumb though to be a space ninja sneaking around with R2D2 hovering over your shoulder. Plus in an extremely serious game this feels comical at best. I'm shooting up the clone army of grineer invaders with my best friend the flying cube bot! It's like a bad 80's cartoon. 

 

In game tooltips: Can you please stop hiding information from the player so we can make actual informed decisions with our money? I want crit, crit damage, charge damage, actual fire rate, actual attack speed, any elemental damage it might have, any armor piercing it might have, and a general guess at how ammo efficient it might be to be listed on the weapon. I also want any special effects of the weapon to be laid out in plain english. "THE KUNAI DO NOT ALERT ENEMIES" like that.

 

Ammo efficiency: Why is this even a thing? If your weapon is more ammo efficient it should have less ammo in packs, and if it's less ammo efficient it should have more ammo in packs. I can shoot at a wall for a minute with my Hek and still be perfectly okay with ammo, but use my Gorgon for anything at all and it's out of ammo. This is a terribly uninteresting balance mechanic if it's being used for balance, but I suspect it's more of just an oversight that has never been addressed. While I can understand some weapons being ammo inefficient when you have so many weapons that people won't look at cause X weapon is just as good as Y weapon except it doesn't run out of ammo...

 

Melee weapon balance: Come on. This is the one part of the game that just sucks. Everything else about the game ranges from good to great, this sucks. Melee weapon balance is so freakin terrible it should practically be it's own patch. I mean, so many SO MANY melee weapons are just downright terrible while the ones that are good are SOOO much better than the ones that are bad that it's insane. I used the dual ether for the first time and I was like "oh THIS is what melee is supposed to be like!" See I had been using the Jaw Sword I got in an alert and got the idea that melee was just overall a terrible last resort, and then my Dual Ether and Amphis taught me that no, melee is awesome.

 

Melee versus Grineer. I'm not alone in thinking that basic attacks (not charged attacks) being useless on normal weapons (read: Not the good weapons) against the Grineer is lame. People want to do those stylish animation comboes you guys have coded in, not just spam Charge attacks. I'd say that honestly a rework should be in order here of all melee weapons such that they all generally ignore armor or have a way for their regular attacks to be useful. And overall I'd like to see regular swings see like a 10-20% damage increase anyway.

 

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome: This game has a really bad case of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. After a couple hours of using my Dual Zoren I just couldn't keep using them, I had to swap to a weapon with good charge attacks. Honestly that's just wrong. I'd really like to see a "auto melee" button that you can just hold down and it'll continuously do your melee attacks. Additionally many pistols have a severe case of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome that needs to be addressed, primarily the dual semi-autos (although the dual broncos not so much.) Having your fingers in pain after use shouldn't be something a game should strive for, nor should it be a balancing mechanic. I mean blech. I love my Aklatos but I'm not going to use a weapon where in 40 years I'm going to be asking myself "was it worth it?"

 

While other games might have similiar Carpal Tunnel Syndrome style weapons the sheer amount of clicking you have to do in Warframe sets it apart. Clicking 6+ times per enemey with Aklatos or clicking 100 times when trying to kill an Ancient with Dual Ether is just wrooong. It might be good, but it's just wrooong to do that to your players. Warframe is practically non stop action for 20 minutes of mission time which really sets it apart from other FPS's with this style of weapon. Counter Strike has the duals but clicking 4-5 times once per 5 minutes is WAYYYY different. Warframe really needs to realize it's a dungeon crawler and having Carpal Tunnel Syndrome weapons in a dungeon crawler is just wrong. Even Diablo didn't make you click more than twice per enemy, and for the majority of the game you clicked once per enemy and just held the button down till they died (but most often they died in a single hit.) 

 

Game difficulty: This game really needs a hardmode, and needs to get much harder sooner. After 2 planets of basically clearing trash (which takes like 5+ hours mind you) my friends just quit and said the game was just run-gun-repeat. It was only through me continuing on that I found that sometimes the game sorta kinda can become difficult, sometimes. Excessive easiness is a turn off for a lot of people, and this game definitely has that. With the first two words practically trying to avoid killing the player it gets... tedious.

 

The first three missions should serve as Tutorial, and the first boss should be a good stepping stone, but it feels like it takes a good 5 hours for the game to even try to kill you, and that's when you stop running up to everything and meleeing it with no self preservation in mind. In fact the biggest hurdle seems to be that nobody takes the game serious at all and that can finally cause you to die... maybe. Using powers wisely, using cover, nobody even does it because the game's difficulty is so low that nobody cares. And when the game DOES become difficult it's such a sharp spike that often I see puggies or my friends just flapping around on the ground not knowing what to do, being so used to just running and gunning through all content. 

 

I don't know how to express this enough. This game lacks the feeling of overcoming a challenge and it makes for lame gameplay. Left4Dead was ALWAYS trying to kill the player and didn't hold back. It was given zombies, zombies with powers, and it tried its best within its ability to kill you. Warframe lacks the ability to kill you. Grineer can try really hard, but they're simply ineffective. Which is a shame since their AI appears to be pretty good. 

 

Keep overleveled people out of low level groups. There comes a certain point when enemies of a level range no longer phase you. Anything below level 20 generally can't harm a max level warframe to any degree of success. So why is it throwing people in to games where clearly they're just going to annihilate everything for everyone there and kind of trivialize and remove the fun from the game? Me and my friend were working on Hek for a good 2 minutes when somebody loads in, blows him away in like 5 seconds, and that was that. This is too common. 

 

Corpus/Infected. While Grineer use tactics and troop composition to try to defeat you, Corpus tries to just overwhelm you with so much ranged damage + HP that you can't stop em, and infected try to just stunlock you. It's somewhat disturbing that Grineer are so well made and fun to face, while Infected only remain fun because shooting zombies never gets old. Again bringing up Left4Dead it feels as if the infected are just trying the lamest way possible to win the game. Left4Dead tried to kill you but it was fun about it, infected just try to stunlock you as much as possible as fast as possible with every attack. 

 

It might not be an effective strategy but it's still a boring one. And yes while certain Left4Dead enemies did stun you it encouraged teammates to come shoot the hunter off you or etc. In Warframe every enemy tries to stunlock you so you just shoot... everything. You can't really say you helped your teammate by shooting everything. 

 

Throw some different styles of play at us. Make Moas spawn infinitely until we kill the constructers Gauntlet style. Make using block more important against the infected and give them more powerful yet less frequent attacks so that proper counterplay is rewarded. Do something other than more stuns + more damage. I think the poll makes it VERY obvious that the Grineer are the most fun to fight, the infected aren't really fun to fight but zombies are cool to shoot, and there's very little going on to make Corpus fun. (Poll at http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Enemies with ~8000 votes.)

 

You guys created the Grineer so I know you know how to make a fun enemy. Make the shield Osprey no longer do a massive AoE shield to just make a deathball of Corpus but make it give a super shield to one unit, say a shockwave Moa as it runs up forcing you to kill the Osprey behind it. Let Crewmen set up shields that block bullets or give them a wall to hide behind. Make regular Moas... honestly do anything interesting. Constructors that spawn Moas until destroyed seems the most interesting idea you can do. 

 

And what's more make Security Cameras less of an annoying and more of a game element. Maybe destroying them has actual consequences and making your way through the building unseen by them has benefits? Right now they're just a target to shoot or something to walk in front to get your allies hit by the laser fence since that's always funny. The Heavy Gunner pins you down while a trooper moves in to blast you with a shotgun, that's fun to fight. The giant death ball of stuns and shields coming at you? Not so much. The infected trying to just stunlock you to death until you manage to dodgeroll away? Not so much.

ok, after reading your post the main thing that stuck out to me was the warframe/replay value. actually I do kind of agree with you. in my opinion it would add so much more replay value if every single warframe had to earn its OWN rank. example my Vauban could be at rank novice while my volt could be at rank gold novice. if each warframe had to unlock each planet and earn its own rank I believe that there would be so much more replay value to this game.

[MBaldelli]

Corpus/Infected. While Grineer use tactics and troop composition to try to defeat you, Corpus tries to just overwhelm you with so much ranged damage + HP that you can't stop em, and infected try to just stunlock you. It's somewhat disturbing that Grineer are so well made and fun to face, while Infected only remain fun because shooting zombies never gets old. Again bringing up Left4Dead it feels as if the infected are just trying the lamest way possible to win the game. Left4Dead tried to kill you but it was fun about it, infected just try to stunlock you as much as possible as fast as possible with every attack. 

 

It might not be an effective strategy but it's still a boring one. And yes while certain Left4Dead enemies did stun you it encouraged teammates to come shoot the hunter off you or etc. In Warframe every enemy tries to stunlock you so you just shoot... everything. You can't really say you helped your teammate by shooting everything. 

 

As a solo/private player (with friends), I'm really not liking the Infected anymore.  It's clear something changed drastically in the 8.x updates for this to happen too.  

 

In the past, the Infected seemed to have a very simple rule of thumb when dealing with Chargers, Runners and Leapers:  If they cry out (when they saw a Tenno in the room), they come at your Tenno en masse.  That usually meant to find a spot that you can defend and let them run at you 'til there's none left.  Having a lot of noise (firefight, lots of Infected being attacked and dying, etc.) would also attract Infected from immediately neighboring rooms.  

 

Now I'm finding Infected in all shapes and sizes (up to Ancients) bum rushing from 3, 4 and even 5 rooms away in numbers that simply boggle the imagination.  And doing so in spite of the fact that I'm using stealth weapons (like Paris and Kunai) and they still hear/see the attack rooms away.  What's worse is that not only do they seem to have near omniscient powers of finding the players, they seem to be able to figure out precisely which room you're in simply by something that feels like "magic".  

 

If the Infected are supposed to be zombies of some sort of another, lower level infected (say, Chargers, Runners and Leapers) should stop at a empty rooms and begin shambling about.  They shouldn't be able to know exactly what room the Tenno's in and charge in like they know where everything is. 

 

Further, I find the mixed-factions missions to be rather convoluted when involving the Infected.  Grineer/Infested will fight each other if they come across each other in a room that the Tenno is about to enter.  Same with Corpus/Infected.  But then instant the Tenno comes into that room: any differences between Grineer/Corpus and Infected suddenly stop (like some magical ceasefire) and both factions will go at the Tenno.  This is further exacerbated (and a really big pet peeve of mine) is how the cameras/gun turrets only seem to target Tenno in spite of the fact that the Infected have tripped the cameras first.  

 

As a Sci-Fi Fan for some years, while I can explain some of these idiosyncrasies of the Infected as being some sort of nano-virus that effect Grineer/Corpus like the alien life form from Who Goes There?  by John W Campbell, Jr. (Knows as The Thing for movie goers) capable of infecting both living bodies and non-living systems, however the level of near omniscience that is being demonstrated by the Infected and attacking the Tenno at all costs is causing me to lose my ability to suspend disbelief and keep immersed in the game.  

 

For example, cameras and Turrets that the Corpus use should be able to target anything non-Corpus (this would mean Infected). Mixed-Faction missions should even out between attacking each other along with eventually attacking the Tenno(s).  After all, they're factions and factions don't play well with each other (as any game with factions often suggest).  

 

Throw some different styles of play at us. Make Moas spawn infinitely until we kill the constructers Gauntlet style. Make using block more important against the infected and give them more powerful yet less frequent attacks so that proper counterplay is rewarded. Do something other than more stuns + more damage. I think the poll makes it VERY obvious that the Grineer are the most fun to fight, the infected aren't really fun to fight but zombies are cool to shoot, and there's very little going on to make Corpus fun. (Poll at http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Enemies with ~8000 votes.)

 

I agree with this with this with the usual stresses for balance.  As many of us experience, activating a camera near to those "generators" usually means that we're going to be attacked by the Moas that it produces.   Well then the same should also occur when a camera is destroyed near to them as well.  While I have noticed that there's a time limit for the moas to appear from those generators, shortening that time after a camera is destroyed will motivate the player to either go to the next section, or destroy the generator so that they won't continue to reproduce.  

 

Game difficulty: This game really needs a hardmode, and needs to get much harder sooner. After 2 planets of basically clearing trash (which takes like 5+ hours mind you) my friends just quit and said the game was just run-gun-repeat. It was only through me continuing on that I found that sometimes the game sorta kinda can become difficult, sometimes. Excessive easiness is a turn off for a lot of people, and this game definitely has that. With the first two words practically trying to avoid killing the player it gets... tedious.

 

You would've loved the Livestream yesterday (07/03/2013).  It was mentioned that it's being looked into after completing a mission.  Although I don't know about that...  Having played only 80 hours and then dealing with a forma reset for my frame, I found myself dead more than a few times on Mercury and Saturn (granted I play as a tank, and forgot my diminished shield/health), so I think even the tutorial planets given an element of "danger".  

 

The problem I'm having with this though is that we're supposed to be running on spaceships, asteroid colonies, and planets.  While it might be understandable that planets could have millions in population of a factions, spaceships and asteroid colonies/space stations not so much.  Hundreds, yes...  But not several hundreds or even thousands.  

 

I love Exterminate missions because the number of a faction is something that can be accomplished solo, private and PUGs because you have a counter that can reach 0.  Further, you can be assured of performing a double back through areas and know that there will be no enemies.  

 

On other missions? Hell, I've had my joy (and ability to suspend disbelief) destroyed by sitting in a room and watching the enemies spawn from nothingness and in rooms I've cleared out not a minute before and then having to kill everything just so that I can take a breather.  

 

This is supposed to be ninja play (Ninjas play free as the slogan says): getting by rooms without having to kill and kill and kill and kill and kill.  Killing off a room without the rest of the garrison waking up.  Hell, even killing off rooms without having to worry about the garrison going on high alert (we're supposed to get these missions done in a short time, no?)  

 

While having to remove enemies/factions might be necessary, it shouldn't always be required like a Call of Duty firefight in every single bloody room.  Assassinating a target (aka Boss)?  I should be able to do that and his retinue without alarms going off 100% of the time and a doubled-up spawn of the faction upon death of the Assassination Target.  After all, in any story, sometimes the Ninja gets away with murder and getting out without harm.  Sometimes the death (or Rescue/Capture) won't be announced until the Ninja is well on his way to escaping.  Sometimes the death is caught immediately.  It should be the same way as seeing a faction (e.g., Corpus and/or Grineer) will have a runner for a console to perform lock down.  When the runner activates the lock-down, then the garrison should be informed of the breach/assassination.  It should not be done automatically. 

 

 

Sentinels: Really wish these weren't added... but they were added so alright. Feels really dumb though to be a space ninja sneaking around with R2D2 hovering over your shoulder. Plus in an extremely serious game this feels comical at best. I'm shooting up the clone army of grineer invaders with my best friend the flying cube bot! It's like a bad 80's cartoon. 

 

I admit that I've avoided buying/building a Sentinel.  I've come close a couple of times, but the thought of it taking 2 weapon spaces is enough to detract me from wanting it.  

 

Other than that, I find myself in agreement to a lot of the points you made.  My personal feeling is that while the game has its challenges and so far I haven't gotten the feeling of the game being dumbed down, I can't shake the feeling shortcuts are being made...  Though this is a beta still and I'll give leeway until they finally give it the stamp of approval of being an actual version.  

[Ghobe]

Y U NECRO!?

[touchmyoldsnake]

The problem with this game, and has hashinshin mentioned, is the repetiveness and the extreme lack of difficulty.  Most people don't even have to worry about getting killed because they have abilities on their frame that one shot everything in range, and they have defense mods on their frames so they can take a good amount of hits.  The game gets repetitive because it's all about doing one of 10 different missions: extermination, sabotage, spy, defense, assassination, mobile defense, rescue, capture, deception, and raid.  The difference?  Hardly any because the actual objective takes like 5 seconds to do, whereas the rest of the mission which takes the rest of the 10-15 minutes of the mission, is to run ALL the way across a ship and kill trash along the way.

 

One way to deal with the repetitiveness of every mission would be to add a random event generator for every mission in the hard systems (like Pluto) where something completely random happens and is difficult to deal with, like a 20 foot cyborg busting through a door or wall and takes multiple skilled people to kill; a really difficult puzzle that takes several minutes to solve; release a nerve gas through the entire ship that instantly kills you if you don't complete the mission in 5 minutes; trigger a trap where your warframes' abilities/primary gun is disabled for the rest of the mission.  Make something like this happen EVERY mission to make it challenging.  We already have the stalker and while he is really hard to kill sometimes, especially by yourself, you get rewarded for killing him because of how difficult he can be.  That's how these events should be as well: you get rewarded for completing them with items like control modules, neurodes, maybe even some weapon/warframe blueprints or void keys.

 

Also, the standard trash mobs need to have more abilities to challenge us, especially ones that are good for keeping us out of cover.  If we hide behind cover because the mobs actually hurt, make a corpus or grineer chuck a grenade at us or just blind charge us.

 

Another way to make the game fun is to make the new systems COMPLETELY designed for people with fully leveled frames w/ a few forma invested.  Make the map riddled with traps that can instantly kill you if you are not careful.  Make unique mobs that are like ninja and stealth, flip around and grapple you or something; put something in that is stupid hard to shoot because of its mobility/stealth.  Put mini-bosses in the new systems mixed in with trash mobs that spit out smoke grenades, shield-depleting/stunning EMPs, give it some dialogue, slap a mini-gun on one hand and a power claw on the other.  This also ties in with the first idea, but something like this would likely be too hard to handle for the newer/inexperienced players, so restrict it to Pluto/new systems.

Edited July 4, 2013 by touchmyoldsnake

[Kyte]

See, the general idea is not terrible. Something similar but more intelligently designed is already on the works as the tentatively-named Nightmare Mode. Check out the livestream.

However, because DE is not stupid, those missions are clearly visible from the mission select screen, so you always know whether you're going into a Nightmare mission or not. Because F*** randomness.

 

Moreover, insta-kill and related mechanics are used in "Do It Again Stupid" type of games, which are not randomized so you can eventually memorize the traps, because human awareness is not perfect.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Kyte

[touchmyoldsnake]

All I hear is that no matter how many times you do one mission, you want everything to be EXACTLY the same.  The only variable that would change is the map.  I don't want the mission to be exactly the same every single damn time I do it because that's called repetition.  Even the hardest missions will get easy if you know exactly what you will face every time, not to mention boring.  Randomness scares and upsets people who are bent on everything being 100% the same.  Randomness keeps you from using the same exact mods and weapons and using the same fightstyle.  If you were to use, say, a Saryn warframe and just use your ult to kill every trash mob in sight because you know what's there and how to fight it.  Now, say an event occurred that disabled your warframe abilities.  Now you actually have to improvise and not just run into a pile of mobs and mash your 4 key until the rubber piece inside breaks.  You can pray to your gods and hold that 4 key until the cows come home; it won't save you.  Now you actually have to use your guns and play cautious to survive.  The purpose of these events is to make the player improvise and drag them out of this dull cycle of "go forward, use ult, left click, win forever" kind of ideal, and provide a challenge.  The game will have 0 replay value if its the same thing over and over.

[Kyte]

Random is not bad (I admit I exaggerated there), but there must be a level of preparedness (knowing whether you'll go to the super-hard missions or not) and more important it must allow you to recover from your mistakes. Which is the exact opposite of insta-kill. In other words: Insta-kill is bad.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Kyte

[Foxfire440]

I feel like this is a very "about the journey not the destination" conversation. I've put my 127 hours into Warframe and what keeps me coming back is the flavor. I don't min/max and use the best stuff all the time, I usually don't use my powers to insta kill everything in sight. It is more interesting to me if Rhino is the only frame I can you the hammer and battle axe on because it makes more sense to me. I'm constantly trying to kill enemies in interesting ways rather than efficient. Slide kills with dual pistols are awesome, run up a wall back flip into charged melee ground attack: Fantastic. There is a difference between playing and farming/grinding.

[Mythrex]

This is just sooo... dumb...