How To Eliminate Rushers: Encourage Not Rushing

[MJ12]

Positive reinforcement of intended gameplay (you get rewarded if you do things like the developers want) is almost always better than negative reinforcement of intended gameplay (you get hit with a nerf-bat if you do things the developers want). We all know, no matter how you dress it up in 'fixing exploits' or 'unintended consequences', that the latest change to movement speed is entirely due to complaints about rushers using it to speed through a level.

 

Why do people rush?

 

Well the answer is simple. The majority of rewards in a level are generally from the boss (in Assassination missions) and or given at the end (for credits). Thus rushing gets things done faster. You can build stuff faster if you rush. It's obvious then why people do it.

 

No matter what you nerf, there will always be rushers because of this. Meanwhile, everyone else loses mobility and has way less fun. But don't worry, I have two potential solutions. One of them is vicious and a bit sadistic, the other is less so but still negatively impacts rushers to some extent. Unfortunately, this isn't an omelet you can make without breaking some eggs.

 

1. Instead of pure random spawns, have an AI 'director' which spawns enemies with purpose. This director would be biased towards spawning enemies ahead of the pack (in non-cleared rooms) and towards spawning enemies . Furthermore, this director would be allowed to create mission twists such as keycard requirements or double doors. Rushers would thus get bogged down in endless enemies while they run smack-dab into a double door. Eventually that'd probably send a message. "But the current system tries to do that!" You'll say. Yes, it tries. It doesn't actually maliciously act against rushers by shoving them on the rails.

 

2. Reduce base credits gained on mission completion to somewhere around 250. However, every enemy killed provides a 'bounty' of X credits, where X should probably be a base of 10 for mooks (or ~1/4th their base Affinity value). This means a rusher gets a pittance of money even on Pluto while someone who kills things through the levels and keeps an okay pace gets thousands of credits.

 

2a. On that note, you could have enemies guarantee minor end-of-mission resource gains. Grineer armor is made of ferrite and alloy plate, and they clearly have neural sensors. So each killed Grineer gives you maybe 1 ferrite, 0.25 alloy plate, and 0.001 Neural Sensors, which are tallied up end-of-mission using the same algorithm Multishot does. Yes, this means you could theoretically get alloy plate on Mercury. But 25 alloy plate a mission means farming Mercury for it isn't a great idea.

 

2b. Furthermore, you could have different loot tables for Raids/etc. depending on total kills you get Affinity from. Why kills? Because kills reward people actively playing the game while not AFKing. Now, this still has the problem of AFK leeches but look that's something you can't solve as easily as rushers. So a rusher completes a Raid 50 times and gets 50 ammo drums and large health restores. A non-rusher completes a Raid maybe 10 times or less but gets a Banshee BP part, a Void key, some mods he didn't have, and so on. Very soon, the Rusher will stop rushing because he will realize he is just screwing himself out of better rewards. Instead, he'll concentrate on completing the mission quickly without rushing, which means suddenly everyone benefits.

 

The Affinity limit means that anyone who goes too far ahead (i.e. 'rushers') will miss out on the Affinity gains and thus get poor rewards from the missions, while everyone else who sticks somewhere around the area (at last check, the radius was something like 2-3 rooms' worth, so very generous) will get good rewards.

 

EDIT: Clarified 2b.

Edited June 9, 2013 by MJ12

[Stinker]

You are implying that rushing is an invalid way to enjoy the game. It is not. I personally enjoy being both a rusher and an explorer at different points throughout playing the game.

 

Just because one group of players hates the other doesn't mean one should just be eradicated.

 

Credits and experience are generally &!$$ poor for rushers, so your second point doesn't make any sense anyway. If I spend an hour in one mission I can come out with 10k+ exp on everything and credits usually in the 20k+ range, where as when I rush I get sub 500 exp in everything, sometimes combined, and a pittance of a credit reward quite often less than a thousand.

 

We don't need DE to babysit or actively foster our online interactions. Nor should we want them to. That just ruins the experience.

Just keep adding 'secrets' to levels to reward explorers and their number will increase. After watching that last live stream, I find myself spending a lot of time just poking about rooms I've never really considered before and I've found a good 5 or so rooms I never even knew about and got to numerous places I didn't think possible.

 

Instead of punishing one type of gameplay, you should reward for doing either of them well. I find that there are actually about 4 types of different players 2 of which are generally the same but I can't justify lumping them together. I find that there are Looters, Rushers, Killers, and Explorers. Looters are/were generally explorers by but explorers aren't always looters.

 

-Looters want to loot it all. They run thief's wit and that new one if they've managed to find it. Speed mods are not uncommon. They hit all the lockers, all the cylinders, always dashing off picking up something, dropping waypoints all over the place.

-Rushers just want to do all they can to speed right through. Buttsliding, wall running, flying dragon kick of ninjaness, and occasionally wall climbing their way to the finish line.

-Killers are those guys running the enemy radar artifact at all times and the guy you frequently see chasing down all the enemies even if it's the wrong direction. Much the same as a looter, only instead of "Oooh! Shiny!" they follow something along the lines of: "It's red, so it's going to be dead"

-Explorers I find don't tend to stay an explorer for long. They tend to turn into looters once they've got a place memorized. However, these are still teh guys you generally never see in a mission and are always last to get on an elevator assuming you even wait for them. They find all the secrets. ALL OF THEM. The few times you do glimpse these players it's either them bursting from some grate on the wall or ducking into some alcove up on the wall somewhere. To be honest, I love running the orokin void with these guys. We get all the secret rooms and speed events. They seem to be pretty good at rushing when rushing is needed.

 

There are plenty of ways to enjoy the game, and you really shouldn't punish any of them simply because they don't play the exact way you want or think the game ought to be played. I'd rather see them rewarded for doing things exceptionally well. Such as: Find x amount of secret rooms get a bonus. Complete the mission in x time get a bonus. Kill x enemies get a bonus. Looting is it's own dang bonus, although increasing the rewards progressively during a mission the more you loot would be awesome. Incentive to poke around and loot it all :D

Edited June 8, 2013 by Stinker

[iPrevenge]

The only part I agree with is #2 Because I am a kill Wh0re.

 

The rest would mean redesigning the entire loot system, for the entire game.  I like the loot system the way it is and I am proud to be a rusher.

[RyojinOrion]

I'm not sure #1 is the best of ideas. More enemies doesn't slow rushers much, but it does leave more enemies behind for people not rushing, making it harder on them. Plus, implementing an AI director would probably cause an insane amount of bugs. As for the rest of the ideas, I like em. :D

 

In relation to the topic:  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/60900-incentives/

 

Care to give feedback on similar ideas I had there?

[Kyte]

More enemies wouldn't stop rushers unless you lock the door in front of them. ;)

 

Also: Rushers lose nothing by playing slower. OTOH, rushers actively screw over slower players by forcing them to deal with all the spawned enemies.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Kyte

[VKhaun]

Take material loot away from bosses.

 

THE END

 

DONE AND DONE

 

No more boss rushing. People only need to get three BP's, and they're done. Rushers immediately become the minority and people who want materials go back to where they're supposed to get materials: Normal paced mission completion killing and looting everything, which gives you affinity orbs and kill XP to rank up what you're using at a measurable pace vs drop rates that makes it easier for devs to tweak availability vs what's added and what should be easier/more difficult to make.

Edited June 8, 2013 by VKhaun

[MJ12]

You are implying that rushing is an invalid way to enjoy the game. It is not. I personally enjoy being both a rusher and an explorer at different points throughout playing the game.

 

I am implying it is invalid because the devs think it's invalid and have done a ton of boneheaded decisions because they didn't like rushers and wanted to discourage them. Unfortunately these decisions impacted everyone else worse.

 

Just because one group of players hates the other doesn't mean one should just be eradicated.

 

Except the rushers are also often elitists who go 'too bad, deal with it' and the devs are basically outright doing everything short of summarily banning people accused of rushing to keep them from rushing.

 

Credits and experience are generally &!$$ poor for rushers, so your second point doesn't make any sense anyway. If I spend an hour in one mission I can come out with 10k+ exp on everything and credits usually in the 20k+ range, where as when I rush I get sub 500 exp in everything, sometimes combined, and a pittance of a credit reward quite often less than a thousand.

 

Irrelevant, the credits you gain from drops are tiny compared to end-mission rewards and XP is irrelevant for rushers who generally have their gear all at lv30. So you hit them where it hurts, mods, BPs, and credits.

[RyojinOrion]

Take material loot away from bosses.

 

THE END

 

DONE AND DONE

 

No more boss rushing. People only need to get three BP's, and they're done. Rushers immediately become the minority and people who want materials go back to where they're supposed to get materials: Normal paced mission completion killing and looting everything, which gives you affinity orbs and kill XP to rank up what you're using at a measurable pace vs drop rates that makes it easier for devs to tweak availability vs what's added and what should be easier/more difficult to make.

 

There are better ways to solve the rushing problem than that...

[Stinker]

You shouldn't be hitting any player where it hurts. We all want to enjoy our space ninjas.

[Namacyst]

I rush in public online games because i want to finish the objective/get the alert reward/credits/whatever.

 

When i don't rush i play private with friends or solo.

 

Why should i be eliminated? :)

[Carcharias]

Positive reinforcement of intended gameplay (you get rewarded if you do things like the developers want) is almost always better than negative reinforcement of intended gameplay (you get hit with a nerf-bat if you do things the developers want).

I do like idea 2, 2a and 2b, but I still recoil against this concept that there is a "proper" way to play the game. As soon as you can find me a directive from the Devs telling how I am supposed to play the game let me know, and I'll leave. Until such time I stand by the theory that the Devs have provided many tools and it is up to the player to decide how he or she wants to deploy the tools provided. It is very difficult to speculate accurately about what the Devs may or may not want, especially considering I can play the game solo if I want and bark like a dog every time I click the mouse if it strikes my fancy.

 

I believe the best way to deal with "rushers" and "turtles" is to stop being lazy and take the time to use your contacts list. It is not hard to collect a list of like minded players, and then play with just them. This community already has a potential solution for he matchmaking discrepancy. I don't know why more people don't seem to use it.

 

There are other reasons why people rush, I am sure there are rushers who do it just cause they are in a hurry or they like the on-the-move gogogo play style (My crew does a speed run every now and then just for the fun of it). And credits?!? That is not a reward, not really. I just spent 200,000 credits starting various things in my foundry. I have over 880,000 credits left. I could probably build just about every blueprint I have and still have credits left over. (don't quote me, I didn't actually do the math, but you get my drift) I am more interested in mods. Which can drop from any enemy. Which means most of the time I kill them all. But again, I only play with like minded players or by myself. I have not been in a random group in months.

[CelsiusPrime]

good topic, but I have a feeling this is going to take more than just a few community members to solve. that said if I'm in a group of rushers (through the chances of pubic) then I rush. If there is even 1 other guy who goes slow(er) then I will become looter sprinting from green locker to storage container to dead-end rooms, etc. the only reason I could see doing rushing all the time is if you need a part that only drops as alert rewards so you rush to the end cause that's the only thing you need.

 

also noticing (as I'm sure most of you have as well) that you don't see a whole lot of newbie rushers or even low level rushers. My interpretation of this is that people's perception of WF's end game is basically getting alert rewards and that is best done by rushing.

[MJ12]

You shouldn't be hitting any player where it hurts. We all want to enjoy our space ninjas.

 

Except the choice isn't between 'everyone enjoys their space ninjas' and 'some people enjoy them but others don't. The choice is between 'some people enjoy their space ninjas and others don't' or 'nobody enjoys their space ninjas because just about everything fun is nerfed into the ground in the name of combating rushers'.

[DeadlyNerd]

Woe is this game if DE actually listens to people like OP and actually removes speed from ninjas.

 

If you don't like rushers, play solo or with friends/clanmates. The mission will be easier anyway.

[Stinker]

Except the choice isn't between 'everyone enjoys their space ninjas' and 'some people enjoy them but others don't. The choice is between 'some people enjoy their space ninjas and others don't' or 'nobody enjoys their space ninjas because just about everything fun is nerfed into the ground in the name of combating rushers'.

Ummm... If I'm reading this correctly, that's not exactly helping your case of stopping rushers.

Why would you want DE to nerf everything to the ground all in the name of stopping the rushers?

[MJ12]

Ummm... If I'm reading this correctly, that's not exactly helping your case of stopping rushers.

Why would you want DE to nerf everything to the ground all in the name of stopping the rushers?

 

Reading comprehension, man. What I suggest (attacking the core of the problem) would stop rushers far more effectively than DE's strategy of attacking the symptoms. What I suggest gives the former ("some people enjoy their space ninjas and others don't") and what DE is doing right now gets you the latter ("nobody enjoys their space ninjas because just about everything fun is nerfed into the ground in the name of combating rushers.")

 

 

Woe is this game if DE actually listens to people like OP and actually removes speed from ninjas.

 

If you don't like rushers, play solo or with friends/clanmates. The mission will be easier anyway.

 

You mean... woe is this game if DE doesn't listen to me and does what it's already doing, i.e. nerfing everything rushers use to rush while not actually impacting the attitude that creates rushers, right?

 

Because FYI, I'm suggesting these because it'd work infinitely better than nerfing movement techniques to combat rushers. We all know what the actual reason for their nerfs to slide/ninja spin-flipping are.

 

I don't want to care about rushers, they shouldn't impact me, I play solo 90+% of the time. The problem is that because people do care about rushers, and DE cares about rushers, and DE really wants them gone, rushers impact me and thus I want to tell DE if they want to get rid of rushers hit rushers where it hurts instead of attacking irrelevancies such as sliding. Where it hurts, in this case, would be rewards.

[Enomilli]

That would make the game too competitive and even more of a killfest in a completely negtive way...

 

I only am okay with the first idea but they both need work...

[MJ12]

That would make the game too competitive and even more of a killfest in a completely negtive way...

I only am okay with the first idea but they both need work...

I said total team kills (and by that I should probably clarify I mean 'kills you get credited for with Affinity gains'), not 'kills by person'. That wouldn't make the game 'too competitive' or 'even more of a killfest in a completely negative way'.

Edited June 8, 2013 by MJ12

[Enomilli]

I said total team kills (and by that I should probably clarify I mean 'kills you get credited for with Affinity gains'), not 'kills by person'. That wouldn't make the game 'too competitive' or 'even more of a killfest in a completely negative way'.

Then how would that negatively affect the rusher...?

 

If I could sprint through a level and reap the rewards of my teammates foolish enough to farm for me then were is the prevention for rushing...?

[RyojinOrion]

I said total team kills (and by that I should probably clarify I mean 'kills you get credited for with Affinity gains'), not 'kills by person'. That wouldn't make the game 'too competitive' or 'even more of a killfest in a completely negative way'.

 

This conversation feels oddly familiar. :p

 

 

How do you propose to stop the obvious exploit of players sitting back and letting the rest of the team do the work? Sorry if you've already stated in this thread, I didn't read the whole thing, so I may have missed something here.

[MJ12]

Then how would that negatively affect the rusher...?

 

If I could sprint through a level and reap the rewards of my teammates foolish enough to farm for me then were is the prevention for rushing...?

 

Kills you get credited for with Affinity gains.

 

There's a radius for that, past that you don't get any Affinity. So the rusher gets no Affinity, no kills, and no rewards. Everyone else does fine unless they fall super-far behind, at which point given how enemies spawn they'll probably be killing some stuff anyways and getting okay rewards.

[Enomilli]

Kills you get credited for with Affinity gains.

 

There's a radius for that, past that you don't get any Affinity. So the rusher gets no Affinity, no kills, and no rewards. Everyone else does fine unless they fall super-far behind, at which point given how enemies spawn they'll probably be killing some stuff anyways and getting okay rewards.

Post that in your OP please...

 

Just note...I'm not against your idea...I'm just seeing if you have ways to make this fail safe...

 

A radius sounds like a grand idea and with that I actually like this suggestion the most...

[Davoodoo]

I remember being called a rusher more times than i can count. Simply because when i enter the room i look at whats shooting at me and i shoot back, if anything worth getting drops i pick it up and go to next room not even bothering if there are hidden enemies or lockers, if they cant hit me why should i even bother with them. 

Not everyone that you cant keep up with is a rusher. Even if they are its valid playstyle. 

End of story.

[aerokiss]

why not, might as well ruin this game even more...

[muccmaster]

I honestly don't see the problem with rushing in this. There's literally nothing to do in missions other than getting to your objective while killing everything in your path. Maybe if they actually made it so exploring the maps were beneficial then people wouldn't just rush objectives. Void missions are a good example of this since there's secret rooms to find. Another thing they could do is add side objectives that give more rewards inside missions.