less arcade more fun?

[Kingdrake]

What do you mean?

Sorry I wasn't very clear, he complained some parts of the maps are "claustrophobic", small, pretty much like CoD having a majority of "close quarters" maps, but we're going to get open sky maps and I suppose, bigger ones.

[Kaiku]

They gave you weapons? O_o

I've leveled 5 spoons and a thimble to 30. I thought something was wrong.

No, no one gave me weapons, I made them myself out of my back hair and a sea cucumber.

[Zakalwe]

Sorry I wasn't very clear, he complained some parts of the maps are "claustrophobic", small, pretty much like CoD having a majority of "close quarters" maps, but we're going to get open sky maps and I suppose, bigger ones.

Oh, the maps are still going to be small in that they'll be in pieces in the dugneon style, but some will have conservatory style to show the sky, and little parts will be open (not explorable massive open areas though).

From the FAQ:

After this we are looking at open sky spots but still in a colonization/scifi context. Biodomes, limited exposures, etc. We are commited to procedural level generation and how it keeps updates small and level building fast and efficient. This means our constraints are like this: if we have an open-to-sky environment in a tileset, eventually it has to connect to a 'join' on another section. Like a canyon choke-point. This means that you won't be running on a massive terrain heightfield with a building dropped down on it like height-field centric games. It will always have a dungeon generation vibe underlying it.

[lamiadomina]

And so what if people are proud of their RNG items, I say let them be. They're not causing you any harm, no need to be all bitter about it.

I liked the potential I saw in this game and invested money in my hope that it turns out well. Yeah, encouraging the design in a direction that's going to ruin it for me effects me.

Edit: Also, the Hek is a lot of fun. Got mine the day before the patch would have locked me out of it. Too bad you didn't get to try it before they locked it behind weeks of grind, eh?

Edited January 24, 2013 by lamiadomina

[Zakalwe]

I liked the potential I saw in this game and invested money in my hope that it turns out well. Yeah, encouraging the design in a direction that's going to ruin it for me effects me.

And how is it going to ruin it for you exactly if people are proud of their gear?

Not sure how your response relates to the part you quoted...

[lamiadomina]

And how is it going to ruin it for you exactly if people are proud of their gear?

Not sure how your response relates to the part you quoted...

It's going to ruin it for me if the game turns into what those people want it to be - a grindfest with potentially interesting content locked away behind weeks of tedium to create a spurious sense of exclusivity around it. One based, moreover, on enduring boredom as a standin for real challenge. We're already seeing weapons I want to try being hidden behind absurdly low drop rates so that only the catassers have a real chance at ever trying them. I'd really like to experiment with a caster build but I have yet to get a single power efficiency mod - I don't want these because they're the uberest (as you implied in an earlier post, I believe) I want them because they imply a fairly different style of gameplay than I've had access to thus far. To call back my earlier post, this is why telling me I'm free to not use any of the poorly balanced content is not a meaningful answer. I -want- content. I want new builds and tactics to explore. I want to see them balanced so that I can have that variety and not ruin the game for myself.

[Zakalwe]

It's going to ruin it for me if the game turns into what those people want it to be - a grindfest with potentially interesting content locked away behind weeks of tedium to create a spurious sense of exclusivity around it. One based, moreover, on enduring boredom as a standin for real challenge. We're already seeing weapons I want to try being hidden behind absurdly low drop rates so that only the catassers have a real chance at ever trying them. I'd really like to experiment with a caster build but I have yet to get a single power efficiency mod - I don't want these because they're the uberest (as you implied in an earlier post, I believe) I want them because they imply a fairly different style of gameplay than I've had access to thus far. To call back my earlier post, this is why telling me I'm free to not use any of the poorly balanced content is not a meaningful answer. I -want- content. I want new builds and tactics to explore. I want to see them balanced so that I can have that variety and not ruin the game for myself.

I don't think there's an absolute tie between people who like showing their gear off and the game becoming that, though.

Still, I definitely agree the game should not let customisation be restricted by RNG. This made ME3 MP a chore for me, and is the reason I quit.

And my suggestion to ignore the more powerful items is still valid, there will always be the most powerful weapon or build, balancing these games is a jugglign act as more content is released. The point is, you don't need to take the most powerful weapon or build just because it is, you can still be effective/have fun/complete the game without subscribing to the min/max mentality.

[lamiadomina]

I don't think there's an absolute tie between people who like showing their gear off and the game becoming that, though.

Still, I definitely agree the game should not let customisation be restricted by RNG. This made ME3 MP a chore for me, and is the reason I quit.

And my suggestion to ignore the more powerful items is still valid, there will always be the most powerful weapon or build, balancing these games is a jugglign act as more content is released. The point is, you don't need to take the most powerful weapon or build just because it is, you can still be effective/have fun/complete the game without subscribing to the min/max mentality.

It's likely there will always be a most powerful weapon, but the game can be balanced either so that the gap is very narrow and contestable or overwhelming and blatant. Ideally, figuring out effective combinations of gear and mods should be part of the gameplay; the strategic leadup to the tactical implementation phase. Balancing it so that it poses a challenge in itself enriches the game for those of us who aren't tools who just want to feel powerful wielding blatantly unbalanced gear.

[Kaiku]

Everyone ending up with same gear and stuff..

But if this is a co-op game, shouldn't we have something what encourages people to play with others, others that have different gear than yourself, because one can't have every useful thing and thus require the help of others?

The downside is the fact that you mostly play with random people, and you all might be equipping the same items.

In the other hand, we could have this game to be more about the enjoyment of gameplay and you can take any kind, but a limited amount of gear you want with you.

And not any piece of gear should be much more powerful than other.

And drop this leveling and gear development. There shouldn't be tiers for gear or levels for anything. Everyone and everything stays at level 1. You are given all the possible customization option from the beginning.

And the only, ONLY way to make progress in this game, is to play harder and harder missions. For that we need a difficulty option that can go really really high.

Now, once you have beaten the super-insane-nightmare-madness difficulty, with the same gear you had on the easiest difficulty level, you are justified to be proud of yourself.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Kaiku

[Kittygoesmeow]

It's likely there will always be a most powerful weapon, but the game can be balanced either so that the gap is very narrow and contestable or overwhelming and blatant. Ideally, figuring out effective combinations of gear and mods should be part of the gameplay; the strategic leadup to the tactical implementation phase. Balancing it so that it poses a challenge in itself enriches the game for those of us who aren't tools who just want to feel powerful wielding blatantly unbalanced gear.

if this were a normal game - a console game or a single payment game - id agree with you. but its not; its a free to play game.

basic psycology says if you make someone feel special they will come back. making people feel special, the easiest and best way, is to make it possible for people to roflstomp through hard work or blind luck. in this sense mods should be both craftable and RNG reliant.

the idea is that people can get **** lucky AND put hard work into it.

... in essenence mods should be craftable items that have effects depending on what is put into them. a loose recipe if you will that any material can be added to, but requires a control module and gallium.

[Zakalwe]

It's likely there will always be a most powerful weapon, but the game can be balanced either so that the gap is very narrow and contestable or overwhelming and blatant. Ideally, figuring out effective combinations of gear and mods should be part of the gameplay; the strategic leadup to the tactical implementation phase. Balancing it so that it poses a challenge in itself enriches the game for those of us who aren't tools who just want to feel powerful wielding blatantly unbalanced gear.

The point is, there will always be those who just go with the herd and take the most powerful weapon or build at that current point in time. Regardless of how well it's balanced, this will always happen.

And the weapon might not even be the best, right now this perception of the Gorgon beng the best weapon mystifies me. I've yet to find a Gorgon user who can score more kills than me when I'm using my Snipetron, and I usually double the scores of Gorgon users. It's better for sustained DPS on Bosses, but that's it. The majority almost always gravitate toward some kind of percieved "best", that doesn't mean the game isn't offering enough choice, it's a flaw in people.

There doesn't even need to be a massive gap, herd mentality is that strong.

[MJ12]

It's going to ruin it for me if the game turns into what those people want it to be - a grindfest with potentially interesting content locked away behind weeks of tedium to create a spurious sense of exclusivity around it. One based, moreover, on enduring boredom as a standin for real challenge. We're already seeing weapons I want to try being hidden behind absurdly low drop rates so that only the catassers have a real chance at ever trying them. I'd really like to experiment with a caster build but I have yet to get a single power efficiency mod - I don't want these because they're the uberest (as you implied in an earlier post, I believe) I want them because they imply a fairly different style of gameplay than I've had access to thus far. To call back my earlier post, this is why telling me I'm free to not use any of the poorly balanced content is not a meaningful answer. I -want- content. I want new builds and tactics to explore. I want to see them balanced so that I can have that variety and not ruin the game for myself.

You have a point that I can tentatively agree with (I have the worst drop luck in games) but there are fairly insurmountable issues in making F2P games without locking content behind paywalls/grindwalls. I'd be really interested if you had a suggestion of how to deal with that.

[muvoxi]

You know the simple answer to this whole topic; If you don't like it, don't play it.

[lamiadomina]

The situation isn't as bad as it could be right now. It could definitely do to get better. I just fear that won't happen if the kind of people who want to see the game turn into another grindfest are given a voice.

I found the Gorgon easier to use than Snipetron when I was a n00b so it was the first gun I got to 30. I've been trying to level my Snipetron since and liking what I see more and more as I bring it back up to competitive level, yeah. But it's cool if Gorgon excels at locking down a room with suppression and Hek excels at hard hit and run and Snipetron excels at clearing a room from too far for the enemy to fire back as long as you're fast enough to drop runners. If the game was only one of those playstyles it would wear thin a lot faster and I'd like to see more of those differences emphasized.

I really don't think that's going to happen if astronomical but random upgrades become the primary reward mechanic in this game. You acknowledge yourself that the game shouldn't let customization be dictated by the RNG and that really isn't separable from "Diablo grind" gameplay. If you're steadily fed drops that significantly outstrip your old items but over which you have no actual control then your build is necessarily dictated by what the RNG drops you. Having balanced guns but merrily unbalanced mods reduces the impact, but it still means choices like whether to mod your frame as a tank or a caster aren't choices in your own hands, and at this point we already see a number of weapons that only lucky or obsessive players have access to via event drops. I'm merely annoyed rather than furious at this point; I think some of them would be cool to have but they're not things I can't live without. Yet. If this is the direction the game is going, reserving good items as badges of status for the most devoted catassers only, then it's only a matter of time before it does turn into items that seriously matter to me. Either way, the principle just deeply irritates me.

You have a point that I can tentatively agree with (I have the worst drop luck in games) but there are fairly insurmountable issues in making F2P games without locking content behind paywalls/grindwalls. I'd be really interested if you had a suggestion of how to deal with that.

Having never run a large scale free to play game that's difficult to authoritively comment on. Most of their items at this point are available either by crafting or cash shop and I can accept that in principle, although I really wish that boss drops were more challenging and less tedious. That seemed to work alright for them up to this point, but maybe I'm missing something.

You know the simple answer to this whole topic; If you don't like it, don't play it.

How presumptuous of me to put feedback on this feedback forum. It's almost like this was some kind of beta that we are testing. Why, you might even think that the game isn't complete yet and we're all holding out hopes for it.

Edited January 24, 2013 by lamiadomina

[Zakalwe]

You have a point that I can tentatively agree with (I have the worst drop luck in games) but there are fairly insurmountable issues in making F2P games without locking content behind paywalls/grindwalls. I'd be really interested if you had a suggestion of how to deal with that.

Indeed. The only way the game can remain free is if enough people pay, and the incentive to pay must be for actual content as, research has shown, not enough people are willing to pay for cosmetic items alone.

I'm sure if it were possible to do it that way, the devs would take the route.

So yes, any suggestions to avoid it that you think the devs could consider would be great. I don't think it's possible, though, or it would surely be implemented already. The more people playing the game, the more chance they have to make money, and more people will play if the game is kinder to F2Pers.

[Zakalwe]

The situation isn't as bad as it could be right now. It could definitely do to get better. I just fear that won't happen if the kind of people who want to see the game turn into another grindfest are given a voice.

I found the Gorgon easier to use than Snipetron when I was a n00b so it was the first gun I got to 30. I've been trying to level my Snipetron since and liking what I see more and more as I bring it back up to competitive level, yeah. But it's cool if Gorgon excels at locking down a room with suppression and Hek excels at hard hit and run and Snipetron excels at clearing a room from too far for the enemy to fire back as long as you're fast enough to drop runners. If the game was only one of those playstyles it would wear thin a lot faster and I'd like to see more of those differences emphasized.

I really don't think that's going to happen if astronomical but random upgrades become the primary reward mechanic in this game. You acknowledge yourself that the game shouldn't let customization be dictated by the RNG and that really isn't separable from "Diablo grind" gameplay. If you're steadily fed drops that significantly outstrip your old items but over which you have no actual control then your build is necessarily dictated by what the RNG drops you. Having balanced guns but merrily unbalanced mods reduces the impact, but it still means choices like whether to mod your frame as a tank or a caster aren't choices in your own hands, and at this point we already see a number of weapons that only lucky or obsessive players have access to via event drops. I'm merely annoyed rather than furious at this point; I think some of them would be cool to have but they're not things I can't live without. Yet. If this is the direction the game is going, reserving good items as badges of status for the most devoted catassers only, then it's only a matter of time before it does turn into items that seriously matter to me. Either way, the principle just deeply irritates me.

Fair points.

What would your suggestions be to avoid these things?

[lamiadomina]

Fair points.

What would your suggestions be to avoid these things?

There is a certain degree of grinding I'm willing to tolerate because it's such an accepted gameplay element and moving away from it is too risky. I -very- grudgingly tolerate the way frame parts are currently awarded, although as per my earlier post I would really prefer that these be a more assured reward for more challenging... challenges. Farming the same boss dozens of times gets incredibly boring and I am not the kind of tool who assumes that being made to suffer boredom makes the payout more of an "accomplishment."

I tolerate the grind inherent in banking enough credits to buy and craft blueprints - which can be substantial, but at least I can do my own thing instead of grinding the same level over and over for them. In most cases I actually don't find this too awful, there are always going to be some delays for the sake of content pacing and within a certain range maybe that's even a positive thing. Sure, fine.

Like in my earlier post, until recently it seems that most weapons did offer you the credits for blueprint/plat to buy it now option. It's not unlike the model used in LoL and that appears to work for them - that game is grindier than I wish it was, but at least it gives the player a clear means to make steady progress toward the things they want to buy instead of leaving them at the mercy of events which rarely spawn, of which a rare few give drops, of which a rarer few give the drops they even want. THat model frustrates me somewhat but it's one I'm grudgingly willing to live with.

As to the mods issue, it's going to keep being a problem as long as players keep having no say in what stats their mods have. Making them purchasable/craftable could of course fix the issue. If you absolutely have to keep them tied to rng so the subset of tools who enjoy farming will keep logging in to farm them, maybe you could change the drops to mod chasses in different tiers which formed the backbone for craft blueprints, so that you can take your "level 30 Braton mod kit" and craft it as your choice of RoF, fire damage, lightning damage, whatever suits your build? If you absolutely have to keep the randomness and farming aspects in, that would potentially serve to do that while still keeping the player's build in the player's own hands. Granted, it significantly reduces the randomness of the system and I am not versed enough in tool psychology to say whether the tools will be satisfied with that. It might be a worthwhile experiment.

Edited January 24, 2013 by lamiadomina

[Zakalwe]

First, I think you should stop calling people names because they enjoy grinding/farming.

I do agree that farming the same area for a specific item/set of items gets tedious, and that they should give more options. I like the idea of adding a small chance of finding the blueprints from lockers, or perhaps, to avoid people running to every locker in the game, add some kind of chest or data terminal that gives rewards with a small chance of finding blueprints. That way people could just play how they wanted without repeating areas and still have a chance of finding the items. It would also help give meaning to exploring areas of the ship not inherent to the mission.

Alongside this you could add more challenges they could be asigned to, but you'd have to make sure these challenges weren't too easy or quick to accomplish as if the reward is guaranteed there is less chance of people spending in store. It would have to be a long, drawn out challenge, which would again add to the grind.

The issue isn't learning to accept grind as a mechnic, it's learning to accept that there really isn't any way to avoid it if you want a free to play game that has dev support and constant updates.

Perhaps there could be a system for mods where mobs drop some kind of token (you could work it into lore as it being a specific energy, or piece of tech use in modifications), and when you collect enough you can use it to craft the mod you want. Of course, this would still require a bit of grind, BUT you would be able to work toward the exact mod you wanted and not rely on the current dual RNG of:

1. Hoping you get a mod at all

and 2. Hoping it's actually relevant to you

[Kaiku]

I think infinitely increasing difficulty level is possible to have in this game. Pretty simple to do if you just increase the amount of enemies and their level. Also make the missions longer.

But if you want some RNG stuff in this game, it could be done in the market. Like daily deals of RNG blueprints, so you can't farm them, but you still have to collect the crafting items.

Every game has flaws, but this kind of model could work pretty well.

[lamiadomina]

First, I think you should stop calling people names because they enjoy grinding/farming.

No.

I do agree that farming the same area for a specific item/set of items gets tedious, and that they should give more options. I like the idea of adding a small chance of finding the blueprints from lockers, or perhaps, to avoid people running to every locker in the game, add some kind of chest or data terminal that gives rewards with a small chance of finding blueprints. That way people could just play how they wanted without repeating areas and still have a chance of finding the items. It would also help give meaning to exploring areas of the ship not inherent to the mission.

That might have some potential. It would be cool if ship layouts were less linear in general - I've discussed with my friend how it might make the game more interesting if you could, for example, target the reactor core on any vessel if you felt that killing the lights would make the mission easier. Having different zones with distinct architecture to give them the feel of actual functional areas of the ship would just make the maps more interesting too. Yeah, I know, designing new maps is going to take time - but I'd like that.

Alongside this you could add more challenges they could be asigned to, but you'd have to make sure these challenges weren't too easy or quick to accomplish as if the reward is guaranteed there is less chance of people spending in store. It would have to be a long, drawn out challenge, which would again add to the grind.

Increasing the range of secondary objectives but making them optional for higher payout (at least in some cases?) might have some application there as well.

The issue isn't learning to accept grind as a mechnic, it's learning to accept that there really isn't any way to avoid it if you want a free to play game that has dev support and constant updates.

Perhaps there could be a system for mods where mobs drop some kind of token (you could work it into lore as it being a specific energy, or piece of tech use in modifications), and when you collect enough you can use it to craft the mod you want. Of course, this would still require a bit of grind, BUT you would be able to work toward the exact mod you wanted and not rely on the current dual RNG of:

1. Hoping you get a mod at all

and 2. Hoping it's actually relevant to you

As above, there are degrees I've been willing to accept, although I'd prefer to see that as limited as possible. At least making slow progress is hugely more acceptable than having zero assurance I am ever going to see the items I want. I've been weighing whether I like this game enough to drop another thirty bucks and upgrade my founder to tier 2 and at this point I'm really too uncertain about where it's going to make that commitment. If they put in more content I like I'd be happy to. If they're going to focus on content for obsessive farmers only I think that's where I cut my losses and get out.

Edited January 24, 2013 by lamiadomina

[Zakalwe]

No.

Then I'm done discussing with you.

Cheers!

[Kaiku]

Anyone liked my idea?

Anyone?

It feels like you guys are too busy arguing...

Everyone ending up with same gear and stuff..

But if this is a co-op game, shouldn't we have something what encourages people to play with others, others that have different gear than yourself, because one can't have every useful thing and thus require the help of others?

The downside is the fact that you mostly play with random people, and you all might be equipping the same items.

In the other hand, we could have this game to be more about the enjoyment of gameplay and you can take any kind, but a limited amount of gear you want with you.

And not any piece of gear should be much more powerful than other.

And drop this leveling and gear development. There shouldn't be tiers for gear or levels for anything. Everyone and everything stays at level 1. You are given all the possible customization option from the beginning.

And the only, ONLY way to make progress in this game, is to play harder and harder missions. For that we need a difficulty option that can go really really high.

Now, once you have beaten the super-insane-nightmare-madness difficulty, with the same gear you had on the easiest difficulty level, you are justified to be proud of yourself.

[Kittygoesmeow]

Anyone liked my idea?

Anyone?

It feels like you guys are too busy arguing...

sounds like SAO, the gameply would get stagnent really fast if the gmae turned into what youre suggesting.

[lamiadomina]

Removing the grind altogether like you're discussing would be absolutely fine with me. As has been discussed above, it might be a less effective strategy for DE to make money, so realistically this discussion is more about how much we're willing to tolerate so the unwashed masses who somehow actually prefer grind to skill will keep putting money into the game.

But yeah, in a perfect world that would be just splendid.

I really don't know what you think you mean by "a limited amount of gear you want with you." We have three weapon slots and finite mod slots. You very much are limited in the gear you can pack at once. I'm cool with that too, my problem is that the options you fill those slots with are becoming more up to the RNG than they are to the player and encouraging a reward structure that's more about being arbitrarily granted access to new items and expected to feel like that's a gift, not content being held out of your reach, than it is the player having agency over their own build and rewarded by seeing that build play out in escalating challenges (the way they presently escalate - turning enemies into meatwalls rather than making them more varied and dangerous - is a distinct problem, but also a problem). Yeah, a certain kind of player is satisfied with that, but those people fill me with disgust and if this game is going to court that market it's very much going to alienate me.

Edited January 24, 2013 by lamiadomina

[Kaiku]

Limited amount of gear. I meant exactly that. I just felt to that I need to point it out for some reason.

Anyway...

Okay, this is a free to play game.

Well, we could keep the current system with some tweaking of the mods.

Once you have the weapons and warframes you want to use, which can be pretty fast with the current system, depends on your taste ofc, there isn't anything to craft. This why I suggest that the highest tier mods are in the market. But only blueprints for them and they can be bought with plat or credits. This way you still have to collect crafting items and wait for the crafting process to finish, or you can rush it with a cost of plat.

This way you don't have to farm the same missions over and over again in the hope of a rare mod drop.

You would need to farm for the crafting items, but they can be mission rewards, instead of drops from mobs. This way you don't have to hope you get lucky, just need to finish the mission. Depending on the difficulty level, you get bigger rewards the higher the difficulty is.

This could continue for ever.

You might get bored, but really, you'd get bored eventually anyway. Devs can't create so much more interesting content that it would keep you playing for ever.

One other thing about mods:

You could install any mod to any weapon or to the warframe.

This way you could get more health with the cost of your rifle damage or accuracy. Or more melee damage with the cost of your health or pistol ammo capacity.

The higher level you have, the better mods you can craft. And you can install those mods to any mod slot you have. The better mods you have, the bigger contrast you can make between your least upgraded stat and the most upgraded stat.

Infinite difficulty level:

No end, you can play until you hit your limit. What is your skill level?

Never ending survival mode. (Unless you die.) Break your records. How long can you survive?

I think that's all.

Edited January 24, 2013 by Kaiku