Aggh Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) Imo the way that void key system has worked out is pretty acceptable. It's pretty common in f2p games for new content to be put behind a pay wall of some kind for a certain period of time. The thing is, if this is how things are going to be done ( and I don't see why it shouldn't be) it needs to be communicated, otherwise players feel like DE is taking advantage of them. Thoughts? Edited June 8, 2013 by Aggh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JinxedFire Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 So what exactly is the problem? That you can buy a pack of them or that you can't get them as a free player? There are a few ways to get them without paying, defense being the most common. But you can also get them as rare rewards from missions such as raids or 7 day login reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusHat Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 What do you mean? I found a void key and didn't have to spend a dime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) Did both of you miss the first sentence in the post you're responding to? And about two weeks of people complaining about how void keys were implemented? When they were first implemented they were pretty much impossible to get without spending money. The recent changes to defense mission rewards has made it pretty easy to get them. This of course might rub people who spent money on them the wrong way. Like I said before, it's a pretty common way for f2p games to monetize new content in this manner, but it'll just &!$$ off players if these plans aren't communicated properly. Edited June 8, 2013 by Aggh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey1779 Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Imo the way that void key system has worked out is pretty acceptable. It's pretty common in f2p games for new content to be put behind a pay wall of some kind for a certain period of time. The thing is, if this is how things are going to be done ( and I don't see why it shouldn't be) it needs to be communicated, otherwise players feel like you're taking advantage of them. Thoughts? Agree that this is acceptable, Tier 1 and 2 Void Keys seem to be common drops now in Endless Defense. It is still possible to get Tier 3 but very rare. Disagree about the communication part, if DE had come out and said they would change the drop rates after a week or two a lot of people who bought keys would not have bothered and just waited. In this instance communication would have hurt DE and the game. This is like a honeymoon, only a matter of time before all the non-paying players realize they need Tier 3 keys to be able to realistically complete the items in the Void. Then all the "This is nice" threads will turn into "WTF, where are the Tier 3 keys" threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsmeha Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 I thought all paying players already know it's "pay for convenience"? They made Glaive a lot easier to get by putting it in the daily rewards, but no one who bought it complained because they are going to be the first to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JinxedFire Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Did both of you miss the first sentence in the post you're responding to? And about two weeks of people complaining about how void keys were implemented? I did read it a few times trying to understand what you were getting at, I guess I just didn't read carefully enough. I only knew you could get keys from login and defense cause the login showed it and people kept doing defense to get them, I only recently found out you could get them from raids and such since a friend of mine did. I agree with you I would've liked to know it was possible to get from raids, since I don't like defense that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matrixEXO Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Void keys aren't an issue anymore. The rates are relatively decent. Got my T2 Raid key on a second run on Venera at wave 15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) Agree that this is acceptable, Tier 1 and 2 Void Keys seem to be common drops now in Endless Defense. It is still possible to get Tier 3 but very rare. Disagree about the communication part, if DE had come out and said they would change the drop rates after a week or two a lot of people who bought keys would not have bothered and just waited. In this instance communication would have hurt DE and the game. This is like a honeymoon, only a matter of time before all the non-paying players realize they need Tier 3 keys to be able to realistically complete the items in the Void. Then all the "This is nice" threads will turn into "WTF, where are the Tier 3 keys" threads. They'd make less money, but if say the time that the pay wall was up was about a month, people that aren't willing to wait that long would probably end up buying keys. A lot of people were in a rush to grind for the new content when it first came out and I doubt they would have done things any different if they knew they'd have to wait a couple weeks in order for a reasonable amount of grind. I've gotten 3 tier 3s in a handful of runs. As long as you grind defense with clan mates you can keep them going for quite a while now. I did read it a few times trying to understand what you were getting at, I guess I just didn't read carefully enough. I only knew you could get keys from login and defense cause the login showed it and people kept doing defense to get them, I only recently found out you could get them from raids and such since a friend of mine did. I agree with you I would've liked to know it was possible to get from raids, since I don't like defense that much. The difference now is that their drop rate has been increased significantly in defense missions. Void keys aren't an issue anymore. The rates are relatively decent. Got my T2 Raid key on a second run on Venera at wave 15. No one has said they are. Learn to read please. Edited June 8, 2013 by Aggh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matrixEXO Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) No one has said they are. Learn to read please. Well, when I read this line: It's pretty common in f2p games for new content to be put behind a pay wall of some kind for a certain period of time. I clearly understood that you were talking about it as an issue. Also, if some new content is placed behind pay walls for a duration all the time in F2P games, we wouldn't really be calling it F2P, now would we? It becomes a "paying members gets a 1up over all idiots who do not pay" system because they get access to it first before anyone else and without a means for anyone else to access it for free. So, the term "pay wall" is not really usable in any case of this game. Use "grind wall", because of obvious reasons. Edited June 8, 2013 by matrixEXO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) Well, when I read this line: I clearly understood that you were talking about it as an issue. Also, if some new content is placed behind pay walls for a duration all the time in F2P games, we wouldn't really be calling it F2P, now would we? It becomes a "paying members gets a 1up over all idiots who do not pay" system because they get access to it first before anyone else and without a means for anyone else to access it for free. So, the term "pay wall" is not really usable in any case of this game. Use "grind wall", because of obvious reasons. Piles of f2p games do it. In many f2p shooters for example, it's quite common to release a gun for cash first and then allow it to be purchasable with in game currency later. The content will be available for free eventually so it is still f2p. The difference between a pay wall and a grind wall is semantic when you have to grind a ridiculous amount of time (consider that many people that grinded for tier 3 keys never got even one during the two weeks since they were implemented) just to be able run a mission once. Especially when many people have had to run that mission 50+ times to finish even a single weapon from that mission's drops. Edited June 8, 2013 by Aggh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matrixEXO Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) Piles of f2p games do it. In many f2p shooters for example, it's quite common to release a gun for cash first and then allow it to be purchasable with in game currency later. The content will be available for free eventually so it is still f2p. The difference between a pay wall and a grind wall is semantic when you have to grind a ridiculous amount of time (consider that many people that grinded for tier 3 keys never got even one during the two weeks since they were implemented) just to be able run a mission once. Especially when many people have had to run that mission 50+ times to finish even a single weapon from that mission's drops. Yeap. But mind you that the devs did not deliberately set the reward pool rates to be like that deliberately as well. Given that this new reward pool is meant to lessen the issues with the old reward pools being bad, I'd say that they didn't initially designed it to be that tall a grind wall to begin with. F2P shooter games that are owned by publishers do that. One good example is BL:R, published by (dum dum dum dum dum) Perfect Sh*tWorld Entertainment. The initial game release model prior to new weapon receivers being added were all grind-obtainable. But when the start of new receivers came out, they were ALL locked in cash purchases. The end result was a rage and only after 3 or so months did they even release the first receiver as a GP-buyable item (and not a permanent one either, still locked in cash). Finally, after another 6 or so months, with the dawn of the Onslaught mode, did they add the chance packs that are buyable with in-game cash to obtain a permanent receiver. So, if you tell me that a game decides to put them behind a pay wall, I will tell you that it's the Publishers who do that. Developers would normally not want to do anything like that because it will definitely &!$$ their playerbase off. Edited June 8, 2013 by matrixEXO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) Yeap. But mind you that the devs did not deliberately set the reward pool rates to be like that deliberately as well. Given that this new reward pool is meant to lessen the issues with the old reward pools being bad, I'd say that they didn't initially designed it to be that tall a grind wall to begin with. F2P shooter games that are owned by publishers do that. One good example is BL:R, published by (dum dum dum dum dum) Perfect Sh*tWorld Entertainment. The initial game release model prior to new weapon receivers being added were all grind-obtainable. But when the start of new receivers came out, they were ALL locked in cash purchases. The end result was a rage and only after 3 or so months did they even release the first receiver as a GP-buyable item (and not a permanent one either, still locked in cash). Finally, after another 6 or so months, with the dawn of the Onslaught mode, did they add the chance packs that are buyable with in-game cash to obtain a permanent receiver. So, if you tell me that a game decides to put them behind a pay wall, I will tell you that it's the Publishers who do that. Developers would normally not want to do anything like that because it will definitely &!$$ their playerbase off. You don't need to explain Blacklight to me. I have well over 3k hours put into that game since cb1. Blacklight's problem is that they haven't had a consistent content release schedule. Putting gameplay content behind a pay wall for a duration only works if you can keep adding new content on a consistent basis so that there is always something new for both free and paying players. Edited June 8, 2013 by Aggh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matrixEXO Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 (edited) You don't need to explain Blacklight to me. I have well over 3k hours put into that game since cb1. Blacklight's problem is that they haven't had a consistent content release schedule. Putting gameplay content behind a pay wall for a duration only works if you can keep adding new content on a consistent basis so that there is always something new for both free and paying players. You forgot that the new content for receivers and whatnot came out and were also in pay walls while the first pay walled content was still pay walled. Too long had the pay wall exist before they even loosen it up. Anyway, drifting off-topic now so I'm gonna stop posting. Edited June 8, 2013 by matrixEXO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 You forgot that the new content for receivers and whatnot came out and were also in pay walls while the first pay walled content was still pay walled. Too long had the pay wall exist before they even loosen it up. Anyway, drifting off-topic now so I'm gonna stop posting. And those updates had months in between them with nothing and they didn't cycle content properly in and out of the pay wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZWarhammer Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Keys ? People just spam region/clan chat asking for void invites not a very good model as far as i'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 Keys ? People just spam region/clan chat asking for void invites not a very good model as far as i'm concerned. I've barely seen any of that. It's more people trying to pull together parties for defense missions now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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