I Really, Really Love Valkyr, but... (I don't love being permanently invincible)

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

Valkyr always have invulnerability in hysterya and this never was a problem , the problems are low energy consumption and primed flow , why not spam topics asking for remove primed flow ? 

[Specific.Zod]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)xKAIOWAx said:

Valkyr always have invulnerability in hysterya and this never was a problem , the problems are low energy consumption and primed flow , why not spam topics asking for remove primed flow ? 

well actually my built for hysteria reduce the cost down to 0,65 with only 300 energy and near 200% strenght. problem is enemy scaling. untill this is "remaked", invicibility is still an aspect of game that you need to accept it, despite you like it or not.

Btw Primed mod is full power creep. seeing people give newbie built contain 2 primed mod : primed flow and primed countinuity, make me wonder.....

[DarthValkyr]

What if there was a way for DE to change Hysteria's invincibility with an augmented card? The card could remove invincibility and give her more speed and range with damage reduction, and the default ability could just stay the same. I honestly would like her to have an aggro ability or something.

[DeadlyBard676]

no offense but if you are always playing valkyr in hysteria 24/7 you are playing her the scrub way. max out her health and armor, grab a weapon with crit, warcry, ???, profit.

Hysteria should only be used to revive or as an "Oh S#&$" button.

[KaneAshe]

13 hours ago, KiryuKusakabe said:

no offense but if you are always playing valkyr in hysteria 24/7 you are playing her the scrub way. max out her health and armor, grab a weapon with crit, warcry, ???, profit.

Hysteria should only be used to revive or as an "Oh S#&$" button.

On the other hand, there really isn't much reason to NOT use Hysteria.

There's a lot of people saying something to the effect of "Don't like Hysteria? Just don't use it!".

That's not a solution guys. If a problem exists it should be fixed, not ignored.

Fixing Hysteria will hopefully open Valk up to get improvements in other areas to make her less of a one-trick pony. (...Or maybe it'll be like Valsako said and she'll end up like Mesa with a lackluster kit and mediocre 4th. I'd be willing to take that risk though, I still like Mesa.)

Edited March 5, 2016 by KaneAshe

[Vohim]

Valkyr  needs more

base shields increased

Paralysis reworked  as it is even with augment its useless  give it double  base radius  probably much more useful with a base shield increase 

Hysteria invulnerability nerf? sure , compensate it with something

as it is i find valkyr boring but not just because of hysteria but rather  she doesnt offer anything besides support  via warcry  

as it is  hysteria is only good for soloing stuff high level stuff slowly but  easily and  reviving allies 

 

her claws need less wonky animations and Cleave like that of a Galatine with max Primed reach  give her this and replace invulnerability with 50-70% damage reduction and more mod compatibility like  Blood rush and Body count  and there you got a sweet rework 

and now my problem with all of this  as it is valkyr is amazing for  assasinations,captures and taking down bosses  what i hate of hysteria is that it turns her into single target melee damage dealer  but at the same time this is what makes her  great  being anti  bosses and such  and burstas reworking this would mean   a near garanteed damage drop 

 

as it is i dont even use hysteria i  resorted to using Jat Kittag+Primed reach with warcry  and is is actually glorious near orthos prime reach+scindo prime damage and crits  and stance gives it lots of disrupting CC, all this only highlights how useless hysteria is asides from  being invulnerable

Edited March 5, 2016 by Retepzednem

[Tulzscha]

Thread title edited for clarity.

[Specific.Zod]

I bet Salad 5 (DE 5) intention was to make valkyr into an assassin, that's why she excel at single target killing.

[AKKILLA]

On 3/2/2016 at 5:15 PM, KaneAshe said:

...I had to stop playing her because she was ruining the game for me.

I love her concept, I love her aesthetics, I love having so much armor... But I do not love being permanently invincible.

Brief invincibility can feel fun and powerful, permanent invincibility makes everything in the entire game feel pointless--including the process of collecting new items and powering up your Warframe, seeing as how Valk doesn't really need any of that to render almost all of the game's legitimate content completely trivial.

Please note, this is not a "nerf" thread. I know portions of this community have an allergic reaction to any mention of nerfs or balance tweaking, so let's completely set aside all argument over whether or not Valkyr is "OP" or not. The real issue at stake for me is that I can't even have fun with the character that I want to play the most.

Permanently. Invincible. Is. Boring.

Where's the excitement in knowing that nothing you do really matters because there is nothing whatsoever an enemy can do to stop you? How is it fun to have the highest armor in the game AND built-in lifesteal (both major reasons for why I chose Valk in the first place) When You Do Not Even Take Damage?!

I want to play as the deadly cat-like meat grinder of rage who survives by continually mowing down enemies while shrugging off damage as long as she is able to continue killing things... not the walking godmode who wonders why she is even playing the game because enemies might as well all die as soon as she enters the level to save her the trouble of killing them.

I want to have an objective to what I am doing, and a reason to use my characters strengths, and for my character to actually have weaknesses that I have to work around. (...No, being melee is not weakness. Not when there is absolutely no risk to your health regardless of how much time you have to spend traveling to an enemy. The reason why melee is traditionally considered a weakness is because Melee Exposes You To More Damage. ...Well, not for Valk. End of side-rant.)

Please return the synergy to Valkyr's kit and make her gameplay engaging and exciting by whatever means necessary. Berserker gameplay should involve adrenaline. It's impossible to feel adrenaline when there is no threat and nothing at stake.

~Thank you from a player who wishes to be a Valkyr player.

When those REDICULOUSLY stupid Hard Sorties/Events come along NOONE can pass because Hysteria Immortality no longer exists and the squad is down because other threads ask for more Nerfs like MIrage Prism LoS because everyone wants a Challenge and DE give us a Challenge and we cry "What did we get ourselves into?!"

I do understand something should be done to balance it out, If i do recall Nullifiers exist in Warframe and try Valkyr in some Corpus maps where the nully fields they toss on ground drop the whole team You gonna wish You brought Your Valkyr. 

I would propose that Status effects Valkyr thru Hysteria, say a Toxin/Slash etc procs no matter it elemental or physical damage should be applied to Hytsteria to give players the incentive of "Im taking damage" While still keeping some type of Invincibility. She shouldnt be fuly Immortal but she shouldnt be a squish bucket either.

While this may not be the BEST suggestion for Hysteria I believe it to be a great one since most ideas I have heard completely ruin her back to the original Hysteria which wasnt great. This a slight challenge along with the idea to add more elemental status effects on Warframes.

Just My opinion, what do you think?

[KaneAshe]

I'd be against that honestly. Being immune to Status Effects is part of the Berserker theme. You shrug off everything and fight through the pain. There should just either be a point where it's possible to be overwhelmed by damage, or it should be much much harder to maintain constant Hysteria.

As for not having Valk to guarantee revives in hard sorties? That might be a good thing, it would make Vazarin:New Moon even more desirable.

Edited March 5, 2016 by KaneAshe

[AKKILLA]

1 minute ago, KaneAshe said:

I'd be against that honestly. Being immune to Status Effects is part of the Berserker theme. You should shrug off everything and fight through the pain. There should just either be a point where it's possible to be overwhelmed by damage, or it should be much much harder to maintain constant Hysteria.

As for not having Valk to guarantee revives in hard sorties? That might be a good thing, it would make Vazarin:New Moon even more desirable.

lol

I dont know what to tell You then, since its easy to state that You want something done but when a concept is offered You disagree and say She should be Immortal just not too Immortal!?

I mean what do You propose then it is Your thread. You never made a specific suggestion what may solve the issue You are having with the ability.

You just basically said this.

I DONT LIKE JORDANS BECAUSE EVERYONE WEARS THEM, BUT I LIKE EM SOO IM GOING TO BUY THEM ANYWAY BUT I DONT LIKE EM SO IM NOT GOING TO WEAR THEM 

You need to figure Yourself out cuz it seems like You are having a split personality controversy going on with Hysteria. You say she should be immune to status but she should take damage and be overwhelmed. She should be a Berserker and shrug off pain? Thats contradictory. How about when leaving Hysteria Valkyrs left with NO SHIELDS or ARMOR? Apply I slightly higher energy drain I mean they gave it to Mesa and Mesa players now have to shut there mouths up just because its selfish of them to complain that what they Love about Warframe was destroyed.

I can offer some Ideas but Im not the OP complaining I suggest You create some alternatives and offer in Your post as it could offer some constructive feedback to the community in general instead of just saying Hysteria is God Mode and Im bored of Warframe now.

Just offering My humble advice

[Gurpgork]

37 minutes ago, AKKILLA said:

When those REDICULOUSLY stupid Hard Sorties/Events come along NOONE can pass because Hysteria Immortality no longer exists and the squad is down because other threads ask for more Nerfs like MIrage Prism LoS because everyone wants a Challenge and DE give us a Challenge and we cry "What did we get ourselves into?!"

I have my serious doubts that nobody would be able to complete every sortie mission without somebody in the party being completely immortal. Heck, I can probably say that I've revived a Valkyr in a sortie far more often than I've been revived by a Valkyr. 

I can say with complete confidence that every frame in the game has all the tools they need to keep themselves alive if placed into the hands of a competent player who knows how to use them. Can these tools trivialize survival? Can they keep an entire squad alive? Of course not. That's not the point. The point is that sorties would be doable without trivializing gameplay. And if they are completely impossible without Valkyr, then they are too hard. 

Plus, sorties are supposed to be hard. Doesn't it kinda defeat the purpose of having hard missions if we can remove all threat of failure at the push of a button?

And by the way, people who make nerf threads absolutely cannot be held responsible for nerfs. Last time I checked, only DE can make changes to their game. Assuming that they take nerf threads as absolute gospel and that they can't make any balance decisions of their own is absolutely preposterous. DE swings the nerf bat because they think that something is out of line, not because a few people on the forum think it is.

[AKKILLA]

26 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

I have my serious doubts that nobody would be able to complete every sortie mission without somebody in the party being completely immortal. Heck, I can probably say that I've revived a Valkyr in a sortie far more often than I've been revived by a Valkyr. 

I can say with complete confidence that every frame in the game has all the tools they need to keep themselves alive if placed into the hands of a competent player who knows how to use them. Can these tools trivialize survival? Can they keep an entire squad alive? Of course not. That's not the point. The point is that sorties would be doable without trivializing gameplay. And if they are completely impossible without Valkyr, then they are too hard. 

Plus, sorties are supposed to be hard. Doesn't it kinda defeat the purpose of having hard missions if we can remove all threat of failure at the push of a button?

And by the way, people who make nerf threads absolutely cannot be held responsible for nerfs. Last time I checked, only DE can make changes to their game. Assuming that they take nerf threads as absolute gospel and that they can't make any balance decisions of their own is absolutely preposterous. DE swings the nerf bat because they think that something is out of line, not because a few people on the forum think it is.

They do have the last word, You are correct.

But..... The forums and the majority vote does have an impact on there decision.

Is that not why Mesa, Saryn, Excal, Valkyr, Frost, Rhino, etc.... Got fixed by the developers to begin with?

Whether it was anerf or buff the votes matter to an extent. If not then why would they even need Forums for and allow us to create reworks and offer suggestions and post bugs etc. They do play there game, not as we do but they some what care about our feed back of there game. Our replies matter, the positive constructive ones atleast.

You do have some type of reasoning, but Valkyr's Hysteria does have a big impact in Warframe in a Good/Bad way.

Good because some missions will require her as You guys know the Razorback event required at least 1 Valkitty. Bad because she can out shine the whole entire squad all the time, Yes I have revived a Valkyr myself using an Ash.

Some Corpus maps cause her to die and lose energy faster as of lately but she is practically invincible. Does it bother Me? Not one bit. Could she be tweaked up? Yes, but dont fully remove invincibility from Hysteria. Make Her lose shields and when leaving hysteria have some kind of debuff. Add a slightly Higher drain, etc...

Something can be done without drastically ruining her.

Just my opinion

[KaneAshe]

1 hour ago, AKKILLA said:

lol

I dont know what to tell You then, since its easy to state that You want something done but when a concept is offered You disagree and say She should be Immortal just not too Immortal!?

I mean what do You propose then it is Your thread. You never made a specific suggestion what may solve the issue You are having with the ability.

You just basically said this.

I DONT LIKE JORDANS BECAUSE EVERYONE WEARS THEM, BUT I LIKE EM SOO IM GOING TO BUY THEM ANYWAY BUT I DONT LIKE EM SO IM NOT GOING TO WEAR THEM

Sorry but that's not correct.

Being immune to Status Effects only is not remotely the same thing as immortality. And thematically in almost all RPGs, Berserking carries a traditional status effect immunity, so in that context it really fits her to keep the Status Immunity. Unlike Invulnerability, Status Effect immunity does not remove all risk from gameplay, it's mostly just a convenience.

Also, you are wrong to think that being vulnerable to Status Effects would significantly affect her gameplay with the current state if Hysteria. Valk is capable of fully healing with a single attack, dying from DoT effects is nearly impossible as long as you have something to hit. Nothing really changes in the level of player engagement.

I'm neither being arbitrary nor hypocritical in disagreeing with your proposal. I don't make many specific suggestions because I don't really care how she gets fixed as long as it's a good fix, and I'm perfectly willing to leave it in DE's hands to decide exactly how. I only disagreed with your idea because it took something away from her without actually fixing anything.

Edited March 5, 2016 by KaneAshe

[AKKILLA]

17 minutes ago, KaneAshe said:

Sorry but that's not correct.

Being immune to status effects is not remotely the same as being immune ALL DAMAGE. And thematically in almost all RPGs, Berserkers/Berserking carries a traditional status effect immunity so in that context it really fits her to keep the Status Immunity. Unlike Invulnerability, Status Effect immunity does not remove all risk from gameplay, it's mostly just a convenience.

Also, you are wrong to think that being vulnerable to Status Effects would significantly effect her with the current state if Hysteria. Valk is capable of fully healing with a single attack, dying from DoT effects is nearly impossible as long as you have something to hit.

I'm neither being arbitrary nor hypocritical in disagreeing with your proposal.

I dont play other RPGs so I have not the knowledge You wield in Berserker lore/etc.

I was only offering an idea, not a perfect one but i tried, after all it is Your topic why dont You offer something we can agree/disagree with and offer our feedback/opinion towards?

Just saying, You could offer something since You are the one who posted this up give us something to think about.

Dont call Me over for Dinner and not Feed Me xD

Im hungry I want food, lets eat!

Edited March 5, 2016 by AKKILLA

[KaneAshe]

Sorry, I edited my post for clarity, didn't realize you had responded already... xP

36 minutes ago, KaneAshe said:

I don't make many specific suggestions because I don't really care how she gets fixed as long as it's a good fix, and I'm perfectly willing to leave it in DE's hands to decide exactly how. I only disagreed with your idea because it took something away from her without actually fixing anything.

I really don't think DE needs us to tell them how to design the game, so I don't see a problem with only making a thread to identify a problem. Solution proposals are well and good, but how often does DE actually do exactly what players propose...?

I'm perfectly happy with people just replying to the topic with nothing more than "I agree." or "I don't agree and you suck!" xD

If people want to contribute more, that's entirely up to them. I just don't agree with the idea that it's "merely whining" to identify a problem without proposing a solution because solutions are not the responsibility of the community, but identifying problems IS.

That said, I do appreciate all input even if I don't agree with it, so thank you for your contribution to the thread!

Edited March 5, 2016 by KaneAshe

[Specific.Zod]

Any nerf that suggest remove her invincibility for sure come from players who cheese with nova, Loki, rhinos and other meta frames. Her invincibility is what set her apart from chroma, a similar durable God. I only see a problem here is players afk in hysteria, which easily do by full efficiency. Remove the ability to achieve invincibility with full eff  and things all set. As my post above and a player had 5 formas in her, just to make her somewhat relevant outside of survival mode.

[AKKILLA]

8 minutes ago, KaneAshe said:

Sorry, I edited my post for clarity, didn't realize you had responded already... xP

I really don't think DE needs us to tell them how to design the game, so I don't see a problem with only making a thread to identify a problem. Solution proposals are well and good, but how often does DE actually do exactly what players propose...?

I'm perfectly happy with people just replying to the topic with nothing more than "I agree." or "I don't agree and you suck!" xD

If people want to contribute more, that's entirely up to them. I just don't agree with the idea that it's "merely whining" to identify a problem without proposing a solution because solutions are not the responsibility of the community, but identifying problems IS.

We live in totally separate universes there.

You prefer people to just agree, or disagree in a negative manner then have folks actually share solutions because its not our job to offer solutions only point out the problem?

Your opinion and Your entitled, as I am to mine. I just love offering ideas and judging by how You respond and write you seem like a knowledgeable competent individual why not offer some ideas to how she can be fixed to suite You.

Well that sounded Selfish, You should offer ideas how to fix her for the community to enjoys as well not just You.

Or You dont just My opinion. 

[Valistari]

From someone who's been in the software development and customer service industry a very long time -- to those well-meaning individuals who think the community should be the ones to provide the ideas/details on how to make changes... allow me to provide a little push back.

If there is a competent dev team in place, that dev team is going to know and understand the scope of the game from the top vision and objectives to the gory details of making it work. This generally means that the parameters relating to the "how to make a change" from an integrated perspective are best left to the greatest experts- the development & design team.

One of the least useful things a noisy [player] base can do is tell the dev team how to do their job in some sort of well-meaning attempt to micro-manage the details of -in this case- how to specifically tweak a Warframe.

HOWEVER, one of the most useful things a client base can do is identify the areas where they are experiencing the greatest challenges or most important issues to them. This allows the dev team to gain feedback and insight on how to prioritize what they should be working on since they can't be focused on everything at once! If the dev team then needs more specifics or details, they can ask focus questions to the community.

It's not arrogant to leave a thoughtful post which simply identifies what to fix but does not provide suggestions on how to fix it- it's just being a good customer! In this case KaneAshe was just being a good customer :) 

Edited March 5, 2016 by Valistari

[KaneAshe]

3 hours ago, AKKILLA said:

We live in totally separate universes there.

You prefer people to just agree, or disagree in a negative manner then have folks actually share solutions because its not our job to offer solutions only point out the problem?

Not at all. I definitely appreciate people like Gurpgork who put real effort into coming up with comprehensive solutions. And as I said, I welcome any and all input and definitely don't wish to discourage you from posting your ideas. Offering solutions is good, I'm just personally being pragmatic about the fact that most likely DE will come up with their own solution rather than using anything that we propose.

If you really would like to know though, I would do something like this if I had the power to change her (Numbers are placeholder estimates):

1) Ripline:

• Augment Mod REPLACEMENT: Ripline is upgraded to grab any enemy within 5m of the target.
• (Optional) Base Energy Cost Reduced to 20

2) Warcry:

• Armor buff increased to 100%
• Increases the reach of all Valkyr's melee weapons including Hysteria's claws by 30%
• Range increased by 2m
• Can now be recast while active

3) Paralysis:

• Augment Mod BUFF: Now also enables Paralysis have a vortex effect which pulls affected enemies closer to Valkyr.
• Ranged increased by 2m

4) Hysteria

• Invulnerability replaced with 50% damage reduction
• Energy cost per second increased to 5
• Claw Damage now increases by 5% for every enemy killed during Hysteria (resets upon leaving Hysteria)
• Claw attacks now cause 10% to 20% of regular damage as secondary splash damage to enemies within 5m to 10m (Enemies more than 5m away take less damage). Ideally this effect would come with a new "Blood Explosion" graphical effect.
• Base Claw Damage decreased from 250 to 200

With those changes not only would she still have plenty of toughness, but Ripline could become useful in the situations where you actually need it, Warcry and the Paralysis augment change would improve her overall killing speed, and Hysteria would become an extremely powerful but temporary rampage rather than a permanent godmode while not completely overwriting the buffs from Warcry.

Edited March 5, 2016 by KaneAshe

[D0DECA]

I love your ideas and I hope they will be seen by DE. I'm so tired of having to deal with up to 3 Valkyr in every Sortie, I can't even come up with anything constructive now. Valkyr and especially Hysteria is in dire need for a rework and should be banned from the high level content until it got one. It's not even all that hard, there is no need for an invurnerable Frame.

[tripletriple]

On 3/5/2016 at 4:20 PM, KaneAshe said:

 

4) Hysteria

• Invulnerability replaced with 50% damage reduction
• Energy cost per second increased to 5
• Claw Damage now increases by 5% for every enemy killed during Hysteria (resets upon leaving Hysteria)
• Claw attacks now cause 10% to 20% of regular damage as secondary splash damage to enemies within 5m to 10m (Enemies more than 5m away take less damage). Ideally this effect would come with a new "Blood Explosion" graphical effect.
• Base Claw Damage decreased from 250 to 200

So you want to completely destroy hysteria? I'm fine with your other ideas. This is just a travesty.

[Hellmaker2004]

On 2016-03-05 at 10:20 PM, KaneAshe said:

4) Hysteria

• Invulnerability replaced with 50% damage reduction
• Energy cost per second increased to 5

 

Hysteria would be worse than both Chroma's potential Damage resistance and Trinity's Link Damage resistance, and with a higher cost and with more drawbacks. Even if you consider the whole kit both Chroma and Trinity still have better overall kit than Valkyre.

[KaneAshe]

1 hour ago, tripletriple said:

So you want to completely destroy hysteria? I'm fine with your other ideas. This is just a travesty.

I did say that the numbers are placeholders, no? This is why I don't like posting specifics, because people tend to tunnel vision certain things without thinking of the concept proposal as a basic foundation.

I think you should qualify your comment if you intend to be productive.

10 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

 

Hysteria would be worse than both Chroma's potential Damage resistance and Trinity's Link Damage resistance, and with a higher cost and with more drawbacks. Even if you consider the whole kit both Chroma and Trinity still have better overall kit than Valkyre.

Please dude, read the part where I said the numbers were placeholders. It's about the mechanical concepts, not the specific numbers. With properly fine-tuned numbers, nobody would be able to match a good Valk for sheer melee destruction with a stacking splash-damage Hysteria.

Also, Trinity needs a nerf obviously, and she has practically the best kit in the entire game atm, let's not compare anything to her.

Edited March 8, 2016 by KaneAshe

[Hellmaker2004]

38 minutes ago, KaneAshe said:

I did say that the numbers are placeholders, no? This is why I don't like posting specifics, because people tend to tunnel vision certain things without thinking of the concept proposal as a basic foundation.

I think you should qualify your comment if you intend to be productive.

Please dude, read the part where I said the numbers were placeholders. It's about the mechanical concepts, not the specific numbers. With properly fine-tuned numbers, nobody would be able to match a good Valk for sheer melee destruction with a stacking splash-damage Hysteria.

Also, Trinity needs a nerf obviously, and she has practically the best kit in the entire game atm, let's not compare anything to her.

The problem is that Trinity has 75% Link DR and Blessing will reach somewhere around 70% - 90% if you are playing without using self damage, sometimes it will reach the magic 99.6% but it is more likely your allies will die instead when you are playing high level content. And Trinity offers a better kit for support although less damage.

 

And Chroma can reach up to 98.66% Damage resistance and at the same time have increased damage for both melee and his guns, as well not only that but he still holds a better kit than Valkyre currently do, so what would be a acceptable Damage resistance when you have more drawbacks than Chroma?

I agree that a lot of Frames that offer Damage resistance do so in the wrong way, be it either offering to much or exploitable. And your augments are at the least something that would make her kit on par with the earlier said. They do however still have the side effect of not offering anything without a sacrifice.

You need to spend mod slots to make her kit on par with other frames with the augments and her armor buff would still only benefit her and a few other frames at best and although you added it is recast-able it still cost to much to work as a reliable CC compare to the other options (I do have to state that about 80% of all Crowd control skills are to strong in this game so if anything the way Valkyres Hysteria would work should be the example that the other should be toned down to or around.)

But in the current state you can't change her without doing a complete rework of either her skills or with most other game designs. Your ideas are not bad, but at best she would become a weaker hybrid that can do a lot of things but at the same time being terrible at everything of it compared to the other choices.