Second Dream Thoughts (late to the party edition) [Spoilers]

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

Good to see somebody who agrees with me on the ridiculous lore.

Edited March 10, 2016 by (XB1)A Frikn Grizzly
Missed some words.

[Heatnix.]

1 hour ago, SilentCircle said:

Just like in real life. Pretty meta. :)

Well... I for one am not frail or a kid and 99.9% sure you aren't either. At this point anyone reading and typing this could punch an operator in the face and possibly kill them since they don't seem to have any physical development. So this is a great joke but it doesn't really apply to anyone-- unless you're paraplegic.

I see more people posting and actually giving feedback (positive or negative it doesn't matter as long as it's not a snaky remark) and that's pretty cool.

I have to add on the "it is the operator" that, again, it technically isn't. Just like most games and movies referenced the bottom line is that everything done while operating as a surrogate is pretty much shallow and meaningless. You can be strong, you can be beautiful, you can be even another gender but it just isn't true. And like I said it's also not original... maybe the "being kids" part is, but... yeeeah... It simply makes it all be pointless and empty. So a Warframe goes down? No consequences. What does dying mean now anyway? what does an operator get from this? what's the ultimate goal? what's the point anymore? It makes the whole Mirage drama be absolutely pointless =p Mirage was just a nothing and the Operator didn't die. Limbo? Oh, we lost a puppet in an interdimensional accident... moving on. Do they even feel pain? How can they torture Valkyr if it was nothing?The Operator could've disconnected and go to a bathroom break-- wait, they can't even walk..

I don't think people who went for my neck with their comments understood that this is more of an emotional thing than a logical thing (one person did). People grow attached to stories and characters and these kind of things (And don't say this isn't your case because you either complain about Star Wars stuff or Batman stuff) can either make them or break them. That I feel disappointed by it doesn't mean that others won't like it. I understand it, I see where it came from-- I simply am not comfortable with the idea. I am getting actual hate for it... that's also pretty disgraceful.

It's not like anything can or will be done about it so, to those being jerks and just flat out aggressive, I apologize for sharing my thoughts? At least one of us has to show some class and human decency.

@Kao-Snake: It's from Gravity Falls.

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by Heatnix.

[Littlerift]

13 minutes ago, Heatnix. said:

Well... I for one am not frail or a kid and 99.9% sure you aren't either. At this point anyone reading and typing this could punch an operator in the face and possibly kill them since they don't seem to have any physical development. So this is a great joke but it doesn't really apply to anyone-- unless you're paraplegic.

I see more people posting and actually giving feedback (positive or negative it doesn't matter as long as it's not a snaky remark) and that's pretty cool.

I have to add on the "it is the operator" that, again, it technically isn't. Just like most games and movies referenced the bottom line is that everything done while operating as a surrogate is pretty much shallow and meaningless. You can be strong, you can be beautiful, you can be even another gender but it just isn't true. And like I said it's also not original... maybe the "being kids" part is, but... yeeeah... It simply makes it all be pointless and empty. So a Warframe goes down? No consequences. What does dying mean now anyway? what does an operator get from this? what's the ultimate goal? what's the point anymore? It makes the whole Mirage drama be absolutely pointless =p Mirage was just a nothing and the Operator didn't die. Limbo? Oh, we lost a puppet in an interdimensional accident... moving on. Do they even feel pain? How can they torture Valkyr if it was nothing?The Operator could've disconnected and go to a bathroom break-- wait, they can't even walk..

I don't think people who went for my neck with their comments understood that this is more of an emotional thing than a logical thing (one person did). People grow attached to stories and characters and these kind of things (And don't say this isn't your case because you either complain about Star Wars stuff or Batman stuff) can either make them or break them. That I feel disappointed by it doesn't mean that others won't like it. I understand it, I see where it came from-- I simply am not comfortable with the idea. I am getting actual hate for it... that's also pretty disgraceful.

It's not like anything can or will be done about it so, to those being jerks and just flat out aggressive, I apologize for sharing my thoughts? At least one of us has to show some class and human decency.

@Kao-Snake: It's from Gravity Falls.

 

 

Until the Second Dream the Operators didn't know that they weren't the Warframes. They do feel the Warframe's pain, and they can experience psychological trauma from what they experience within the Warframes. These things we know for certain. We know that they can feel the Warframe's pain because they were unaware that they weren't inside the Warframes, and if they couldn't feel pain they'd have clocked on to the idea that something was wrong. Although, you can ignore all those fairly easy to intuit facts and simply listen to the damn Operator; if you take serious pain he/she will state that 'The Transference makes this hurt'. Given that fact, it's quite possible that the experience of piloting a Warframe could even kill the Operator due to shock.

As for the question of psychological trauma and torture: modern day drone operators have the same rates of PTSD and other combat-related mental illnesses as pilots flying similar missions, and they're using monitors, joysticks and keyboards. If you had a simulation so perfect that you couldn't distinguish it from reality then you can be sure that you can feel pain and trauma.


Oh, and the whole 'No consequences if I die' any more complaint is silly. There has never been a consequence: if you die four times then you just respawn back on the Liset. At least with the current lore it makes sense, as it's possible that the Liset can teleport the Warframe out of the area (it can teleport Life Support Pods into the area, after all).

[Heatnix.]

I don't mix lore and gameplay much unless it's very detailed as to how it fits into lore exactly, so the "no consequences" part still stands. Just as it was said: Doesn't matter how many Tenno the Stalker kills, it makes no difference because there's none. One Warframe falls and they just either recover the pieces and put it back together or build a new one.

And it doesn't seem like there's much "pain" or trauma given that they are dreaming while operating. You don't wake up feeling the pain of a bad dream. Hell, you may even forget about it as soon as you wake up... All of their memories can be gone in an instant, especially when realizing their true bodies weren't in danger. In fact, now knowing this, I can see them being more suicidal and crazier. What's the difference? As for the whole "transference makes it hurt" oh dear god... don't tell me they're mixing The Matrix into this? I am even more sad about this lore now... "if you die in your dreams, you die in real life!" "if you die in the matrix, you die in real life!" "if you die in your warframe, you die in real life" oh gods... I can't take this anymore... I just want to drop on the floor and squirm now...

And let's not get into PTSD. It's a sensible matter to some people and I am so not sensible about it. I rather not make people hate me more for having a different opinion at this point...

 

Edited March 10, 2016 by Heatnix.

[SilentCircle]

5 hours ago, EmptyDevil said:

Savage.

That wasn't directed at the OP at all. It was a comment/joke about the story. The Tenno is an almost perfect metaphor for the players of this game. We (as players) controlled the frames and now a kid does. And the kid is us. The only difference is that "they are calling it Transference" instead of putting a mouse and keyboard in front of the operator. :)

[Vehemency]

2 hours ago, Heatnix. said:

And it doesn't seem like there's much "pain" or trauma given that they are dreaming while operating. You don't wake up feeling the pain of a bad dream

A few times I've woken up from bad dreams thinking I was bleeding or dying from pain. Maybe I just have vivid dreams. I just hope getting stabbed isn't nearly as painful as it is in my dreams. I've also woken up from painful but not nightmarish dreams 'feeling' something crawling in my veins. This was your TMI for the day.

[Heatnix.]

1 hour ago, Vehemency said:

A few times I've woken up from bad dreams thinking I was bleeding or dying from pain. Maybe I just have vivid dreams. I just hope getting stabbed isn't nearly as painful as it is in my dreams. I've also woken up from painful but not nightmarish dreams 'feeling' something crawling in my veins. This was your TMI for the day.

 

Yikes. I hope you get to have vivid dreams about being a super hero or something awesome and less about getting stabbed! No, seriously! I do hope so cause then you'd have a blast. Sleeping is just the best too. It's like being dead without the long term commitment.

[BornWithTeeth]

Hmmm.

 

 

Well, I'm sorry that you really don't like the reveal, it's a shame that you feel like it's ruined Warframe for you. I don't agree with you, I quite like the Operators, with a couple of reservations*, but I can see why you might have some of the complaints which you do. 

 

I don't agree with your assessment that it was all fake, that any kind of code, anything you ever did, that it was all fake or a lie. The thing which changed, the only thing which changed, was our understanding of what the Tenno are. What we do hasn't changed. What we have done in the past, that happened. The Operator is not a spectator. The Operator is the Tenno, the driving mind, the one which experiences and chooses.

 

 

*My only problem with the Operators is their occasionally godawful dialogue. Seriously DE. You want me to play a mutant with the body of an adolescent, but the mind and experiences of a centuries old ninja master? That's cool, I'm in, I'm 100% onboard.....just for the love of God, let them speak more like Ninja masters. I don't like Teshin much, but the Tenno should probably speak more like he does.

[DjaAkh]

12 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Hmmm.

 

 

Well, I'm sorry that you really don't like the reveal, it's a shame that you feel like it's ruined Warframe for you. I don't agree with you, I quite like the Operators, with a couple of reservations*, but I can see why you might have some of the complaints which you do. 

 

I don't agree with your assessment that it was all fake, that any kind of code, anything you ever did, that it was all fake or a lie. The thing which changed, the only thing which changed, was our understanding of what the Tenno are. What we do hasn't changed. What we have done in the past, that happened. The Operator is not a spectator. The Operator is the Tenno, the driving mind, the one which experiences and chooses.

 

 

*My only problem with the Operators is their occasionally godawful dialogue. Seriously DE. You want me to play a mutant with the body of an adolescent, but the mind and experiences of a centuries old ninja master? That's cool, I'm in, I'm 100% onboard.....just for the love of God, let them speak more like Ninja masters. I don't like Teshin much, but the Tenno should probably speak more like he does.

 

Agree!

Until the quest line, your operator does not even know, he's not physically in there. To him, it is as real as it can be. Yeah, afterwards, he knows, that he cannot die. But really... dying should be less of an issue to a proper Tenno, than failing their missions. And in that regard: Nothing changed. Also, I'm a huge fan of the concept of transhumanism and frankly, it is the only way to reasonably explain, how your Tenno changes appearance, build and sex in between missions. Unless, of course, your Tenno is really, really thin and wears the most ridiculous muscle suits!

I am not a huge fan, that the Tenno are children. Particularly mass-murdering children. Yeah, they got send into the void as children, but they could have grown up since then. Also... the dialogues. Oh, got, the dialogues. I would prefer MY TENNO to be more mutant and less kiddo and to speak more like a ninja master, as BornWithTeeth wrote, or not at all. A customizing option, that goes beyond the slightly scarred face and an option to turn off the dialogue would do the trick for me really.

[Littlerift]

27 minutes ago, DjaAkh said:

-snip-

A customizing option, that goes beyond the slightly scarred face and an option to turn off the dialogue would do the trick for me really.

 

Options > Audio > Operator Voice

 

But yeah, the customisation is rubbish. My Tenno is female solely because the 'male' hairstyles are all awful.

[DjaAkh]

2 hours ago, Attley said:

 

Options > Audio > Operator Voice

 

But yeah, the customisation is rubbish. My Tenno is female solely because the 'male' hairstyles are all awful.

huh... thanks, mate!

Btw... I play a baldie for that same reason ;)

[Vehemency]

4 hours ago, Heatnix. said:

Yikes. I hope you get to have vivid dreams about being a super hero or something awesome and less about getting stabbed! No, seriously! I do hope so cause then you'd have a blast. Sleeping is just the best too. It's like being dead without the long term commitment.

I did have a very vivid dream about Isaac Clarke once, I don't know what he was doing on the Galactica with me. 

 

I have vivid good dreams sometimes, don't worry! I'm not counting the Isaac Clarke one.

[GhostLacuna]

13 hours ago, 1RedSkittle said:

You do realize you are the operator, right? That the Warframes are nothing without you. Did you miss that part or something?

Well DE blew that out in the water now didn't they. 

The tenno is the operator now not you. 

Or do you see yourself as that NPC?

[PrVonTuckIII]

I understand where you're coming from, but there are some flaws in your thinking.

1) Just because we found out that our 'Frames are controlled by the Tenno, doesn't mean we aren't ninja anymore. It makes no difference.

2) As of now, we have evidence that there is a being inhabiting the Warframes. Like Hunhow at the end of the Second Dream, or the various boss quotes.

3) Also, sleep paralysis. Have you experienced it? It can be pretty terrifying. I got it a few times when I was younger. Woke up being unable to breath, swallow, or move my head, Scary as f**k.

[BornWithTeeth]

25 minutes ago, GhostLacuna said:

Well DE blew that out in the water now didn't they. 

The tenno is the operator now not you. 

Or do you see yourself as that NPC?

You do understand that the majority of people really didn't have a problem, that most players seamlessly adapted and were all like "Oh, cool! This is the customisable player character!"?

 

Like, you do get that when you insist that the Operator is an NPC, the response of most people is to sadly shake their heads and go back to playing Warframe....using their cool new player character/avatar and its associated Focus powers?

[Littlerift]

32 minutes ago, GhostLacuna said:

Well DE blew that out in the water now didn't they. 

The tenno is the operator now not you. 

Or do you see yourself as that NPC?

 

You're the one playing the fracking game!

[GhostLacuna]

7 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

You do understand that the majority of people really didn't have a problem, that most players seamlessly adapted and were all like "Oh, cool! This is the customisable player character!"?

 

Like, you do get that when you insist that the Operator is an NPC, the response of most people is to sadly shake their heads and go back to playing Warframe....using their cool new player character/avatar and its associated Focus powers?

Yes and that is fine. 

I on the other hand is sick and tired of the damn "only humanity" can save the world shallowness that has creeped into gaming the last 10 years. 

And the tenno is a npc by the very definition of the word none player character. Unless you count the summoning of the tenno as you activate your focus school as playing them.

i do not count that as playing them myself.

@Attley yes i am the only playing the game. i also have exactly zero need of an ingame "avatar" like the tenno in the game. 

i am a person who enjoy silent heroes like gordon freeman instead of loud mouths that cant shut up. aka gaming heroes that talk and talk. 

different things are enjoyed by different people after all. 

You are free to enjoy the tennos all you want while i will choose to ignore them. its a little thing called different opinions.

Your opinion is not worth more then mine and vice versa.

 

[RakuyoExcelsior]

13 hours ago, Heatnix. said:

So a Warframe goes down? No consequences. What does dying mean now anyway? what does an operator get from this? what's the ultimate goal? what's the point anymore? It makes the whole Mirage drama be absolutely pointless =p Mirage was just a nothing and the Operator didn't die. Limbo? Oh, we lost a puppet in an interdimensional accident... moving on. Do they even feel pain? How can they torture Valkyr if it was nothing?The Operator could've disconnected and go to a bathroom break-- wait, they can't even walk..

 

You seem to misunderstand what a Warframe is. A Warframe is a bio-mechanical entity remotely controlled by the Tenno. It is hinted that the Warframes have been created from real people themselves. It's not like using a gun, they are tools but at the same time are not. An Operator is one with the Warframe when they are controlling it. So Valkyr, the original Valkyr, got captured by Alad V and experimented on. The result, the blueprints by which we build her now, are the result of those experiments on Valkyr.

You forget that what Warframe we use now are recreated using Blueprints. Those blueprints are based off the original Warframes, real people imbued and augumented with cybernetics and robotics and Void energies. The questlines we do are about the ORIGINAL Warframes. What we use now are mere copies, mass produced. It's also hinted that the original Warframes were WAY stronger.

Edit: From what I can deduce, the original Warframes were also created from special, Void imbued individuals, but while the Tenno channel their power to control a Warframe, a Warframe uses ITS power to do all those awesome things, and warframes that use others like Nyx or Inaros also use their powers to control other creatures like a Tenno controls them.

Edited March 10, 2016 by RakuyoExcelsior

[Heatnix.]

6 hours ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

I understand where you're coming from, but there are some flaws in your thinking.

1) Just because we found out that our 'Frames are controlled by the Tenno, doesn't mean we aren't ninja anymore. It makes no difference.

2) As of now, we have evidence that there is a being inhabiting the Warframes. Like Hunhow at the end of the Second Dream, or the various boss quotes.

3) Also, sleep paralysis. Have you experienced it? It can be pretty terrifying. I got it a few times when I was younger. Woke up being unable to breath, swallow, or move my head, Scary as f**k.

 

1: It's all fake. If you pay someone to do something you didn't do it. "Dreaming" of being a ninja doesn't make you a ninja. The code is all meant for non existent creatures, all kids just toying with their dolls killing stuff in space. You're not a ninja, you're a pilot with a lot of imagination, unable to do what you preach. You can't walk the walk. lol literally.

2: There's no living creature inside. There's nothing but robot pieces and some biological stuff. It's not your character, it's not sentient, it's a nothing. Just a tool. You can believe all you want that there's something there but there's nothing. It's no different than any RC toy.

3: Never experienced it.

RakuyoExcelsior: All these deductions and speculation doesn't help. We have what we have right now and no evidence that the original Warframe weren't brats playing a video game. For all we know the Sentient were defeated by a bunch of kids whom toys would break on the battlefield and they'd just get another to keep fighting so they were endless. No speculations, no theories, no idea, just what we were given.

Being a Tenno is meaningless now. It's an empty concept to me now. It lost all it's mysticism and meaning to be honest. You're just a battery in the shape of the most annoying creature alive: Early teens!. We got the cliche Avatar thing mixed with Hunger Games and Divergent and other dumb teen movies and we're supposed to just roll with it again. "Humanity rules!" "teens rule!" uuuuugh... who's writing this lore?

[PrVonTuckIII]

5 hours ago, Heatnix. said:

1: It's all fake. If you pay someone to do something you didn't do it. "Dreaming" of being a ninja doesn't make you a ninja. The code is all meant for non existent creatures, all kids just toying with their dolls killing stuff in space. You're not a ninja, you're a pilot with a lot of imagination, unable to do what you preach. You can't walk the walk. lol literally.

2: There's no living creature inside. There's nothing but robot pieces and some biological stuff. It's not your character, it's not sentient, it's a nothing. Just a tool. You can believe all you want that there's something there but there's nothing. It's no different than any RC toy.

3: Never experienced it.

1) It's not fake. The Warframes still did all that. They were just controlled by someone else. Why does it matter this much anyways? You can still play the game how you want.

2) Actually there is a lot of evidence to the contrary. Our next Cine-Quest with Ballas should reveal some more.

[Heatnix.]

2 hours ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

1) It's not fake. The Warframes still did all that. They were just controlled by someone else. Why does it matter this much anyways? You can still play the game how you want.

2) Actually there is a lot of evidence to the contrary. Our next Cine-Quest with Ballas should reveal some more.

1- The Warframes did it, not "you". "You" can't even stand on your own legs. "You" were never in danger. "You" didn't even know that you had so much lag between the hidden moon and your Tenno that you couldn't use your Teen Powers of focus. And once more, it's the principle and feeling of the game and the events not the actual game. Once more, it's like finding out Batman was a bunch of gnomes in a costume. It mocks the idea of what Batman (or any hero. Batman is just a quick example) is and everything it stood for. "Batman" was never a thing, just a crafted lie for Gnomes to play around. Essentially all you did was just a dream. Your Tenno is unable to even walk... It's not even old enough to have it's brain developed in full for judgement. It's just another average plot of "humans rule!" mixed with "teens rule!" which is also pretty annoying when you like to dive into stories. It went from a mysterious story about even more mysterious warriors to just another pre-teen novel of human kids saving the world with super powers.

2- Being a mix of biological and mechanical components doesn't mean that the golem is alive or has a mind of it's own. It's just a bio-mechanical suit. There are living things inside but it's not a being. It's "soul less" for whoever believes in that kind of stuff and most definitely it's mindless.

The more people add to it the more I feel bad about this whole thing. I'm so upset and disappointed... it's only getting worse.

[DjaAkh]

15 hours ago, Littlerift said:

 

You're the one playing the fracking game!

Do you have any ingame lore to back up that statement? ;)

 

 

52 minutes ago, Heatnix. said:

1- The Warframes did it, not "you". "You" can't even stand on your own legs. "You" were never in danger. "You" didn't even know that you had so much lag between the hidden moon and your Tenno that you couldn't use your Teen Powers of focus. And once more, it's the principle and feeling of the game and the events not the actual game. Once more, it's like finding out Batman was a bunch of gnomes in a costume. It mocks the idea of what Batman (or any hero. Batman is just a quick example) is and everything it stood for. "Batman" was never a thing, just a crafted lie for Gnomes to play around. Essentially all you did was just a dream. Your Tenno is unable to even walk... It's not even old enough to have it's brain developed in full for judgement. It's just another average plot of "humans rule!" mixed with "teens rule!" which is also pretty annoying when you like to dive into stories. It went from a mysterious story about even more mysterious warriors to just another pre-teen novel of human kids saving the world with super powers.

2- Being a mix of biological and mechanical components doesn't mean that the golem is alive or has a mind of it's own. It's just a bio-mechanical suit. There are living things inside but it's not a being. It's "soul less" for whoever believes in that kind of stuff and most definitely it's mindless.

The more people add to it the more I feel bad about this whole thing. I'm so upset and disappointed... it's only getting worse.

I disagree, but not with your entire point, but rather with your point of view.

If you dislike the lack of physical threat to the Tenno, than I can see that. However, I would like to point out, that the Tenno aren't really heroes. Being killed (as far as my understanding of the Tenno honour codex goes) is rather second to failing their missions. And whether you're inside a suit or far away does not change anything about this form of "threat".

If you dislike the Tenno being a pubescent kiddo, well... can't really blame you there, mate :) I mean... one thing is clear: Without any form of transhumanism, this whole switching Warframes and reviving thing doesn't work too well. Yes, the Tenno could have been pure, mystical Ninja-energy or at least adults, who were altered by the void into bizarre, mysterious creatures. But seriously... how would you have explained the change of shape, size and sex by switching Frames and the whole "oh, you died? Well, then the mission failed. Try again!"-thing without transhumanism?

[PrVonTuckIII]

1 hour ago, Heatnix. said:

1- The Warframes did it, not "you". "You" can't even stand on your own legs. "You" were never in danger. "You" didn't even know that you had so much lag between the hidden moon and your Tenno that you couldn't use your Teen Powers of focus. And once more, it's the principle and feeling of the game and the events not the actual game. Once more, it's like finding out Batman was a bunch of gnomes in a costume. It mocks the idea of what Batman (or any hero. Batman is just a quick example) is and everything it stood for. "Batman" was never a thing, just a crafted lie for Gnomes to play around. Essentially all you did was just a dream. Your Tenno is unable to even walk... It's not even old enough to have it's brain developed in full for judgement. It's just another average plot of "humans rule!" mixed with "teens rule!" which is also pretty annoying when you like to dive into stories. It went from a mysterious story about even more mysterious warriors to just another pre-teen novel of human kids saving the world with super powers.

2- Being a mix of biological and mechanical components doesn't mean that the golem is alive or has a mind of it's own. It's just a bio-mechanical suit. There are living things inside but it's not a being. It's "soul less" for whoever believes in that kind of stuff and most definitely it's mindless.

The more people add to it the more I feel bad about this whole thing. I'm so upset and disappointed... it's only getting worse.

I don't think I can turn you away from your opinion. So I'll leave you to that. I concede.

However, it is heavily implied that the Warframes are not just biomechanical suits.

Spoiler

For example, Hunhow says in the Second Dream that the Frames are senseless and inanimate. However, right after, the Frame takes control of itself and rips apart the sword in its chest. While some would argue this was the Operator remotely taking control (which has never happened), Hunhow's exclamation of "what is this?!?!" indicates that their is something inside the frames. Also, dialogue between Ballas and the council indicates that their is indeed a being inside the frame. This even further reinforced by the quotes by Lephantis and Phorid.

 

[Heatnix.]

Whatever. I concede too. I've reached a level of depression caused by this plot too high for me to care. I'll just roll over and curl up and stop playing--- for a day or two. But thanks to everyone that actually came here to discuss rationally and post point of views and all. It made me had to work on my arguments a lot too and that's great. To everyone that just wanted to insult me: keep it classy!

I'll keep answering maybe... but one liners probably. I'm just too mentally frustrated with all of this.

DjaAkh: Oh yeah well...it's cause I don't mix gameplay and lore. Technically if you die in a game and revive is through game mechanics and not lore. Game mechanics reviving characters would really do a number on plot based deaths. Reviving and changing frames to me was just a gameplay thing. Just like other MMOs, right? Like when you die you get revived with an item but then somebody dies as a plot device and you're like "lol just use the item!" but you can't cause... it's not a part of the story, just a game mechanic.

PrVonTuckIII: I think that little scene was just a bone thrown to people to make us hope there's more to a Warframe... but at the same time we can justify it as a self defense system. it's a bio-machine, after all, even without the battery (Tenno) it must have some sort of self-doing programming or features.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Heatnix.

[GhostLacuna]

i have no problem with the transhumanism that was obvious from the start. See embers codex entry or rhinos. 

Its the whole star child/child soldier pilot trope i am against and the forced avatar aka tenno.

When are developers going to realise that the average gamer is 32 ? i can even link the studies that proves this if any of you other forum goers need proof. 

Not all of use lack the maturity or imagination to be able to connect to other things then generic humans. Or the human children as saviours in so many games of late.

Even if i disliked the second dream quest for its done to death plot and bad writing. i am ok with others liking it and enjoying it.

Before the quest i was the adult operator doing the transhumanism so i had no problem with the lore of switching between frames. my vision of the game where already in line with the lore. 

With the Second Dream DE forcily replaced me as an operator with an pre pubertal tenno with some of the worst lines in both dialogue and transmissions i seen for years. 

An avatar i must assume is $&*&*#(%& in its medical meaning due to how inane and cringe worthy the things they say is.

Why did we need this extra layer? 

The only answer I can think of is that felt that they needed to give those that can only connect  to humans an avatar in game.

Screwing over the rest of us in the process. 

This and the fact that the current implementation of focus screw over anyone not playing draco or abusing stealth multipliers. 

Has made me take a some what radical step.

Since focus and its annoyingly loud and distracting focus drops is more of a hinderence then a help in its current form.

I have started rebuilding all 4 frames i had installed lenses into.

That means i rebuilt excalibur, loki prime, mag prime and ember prime at quite a cost.

However since i turned the frames that had lenses into scrap metal i no longer get focus drops nor do i have to care about focus at all.