Warframe Movement As Of Today Is Downright Garbage

[f3llyn]

I agree with everything you said :) it feels dump to be a slow FROST and really have to use a rush skill mod in order to keep up because some of the movements where nerfed to extreme.

The nerve of DE to make people use the mods that speed up frames instead of relying on uintended gameplay mechanics. The nerve!

[Bushinji]

In all honesty, I have a hard time agreeing with this. The threads keep popping up, because people can't spam jump/slide anymore, but there are a boatload more options on how to get around. Most rooms have walls. Wallruns into walljumps are really fast. And parcour traversing still works fine. There is suddenly a cooldown on one element (sliding) and the entire movement is "downright garbage"?

 

Can't follow. Did you really just repeat jump/slide before?

 

Disclaimer: I am not a DE employee. This is not a company opinion. I do not speak for DE. I am not trying to instigate unrest. I am 100% confused how such a minor change to one aspect of movement spells the doom and downfall of the entire toolbox of motions.

Is it so hard to read the post? I even capped the parts that are important: one of the combat mechanics suffering from this is the alternating range of your slide attacks if you spam it on a horde of enemies or if you want to poke bosses like Kril while not getting hit by his hammer.

And if you love to practice "hardcore parkouring", you'll also see that you're not able to do combos anymore which use two slides in a row (i.e Corpus Ship, room with two elevators and 3 lanes, jumping from one lower lane to the other one)

[aerokiss]

And if you love to practice "hardcore parkouring", you'll also see that you're not able to do combos anymore which use two slides in a row (i.e Corpus Ship, room with two elevators and 3 lanes, jumping from one lower lane to the other one)

this is one of the things i was refering to..

although i think it not hardcore parkouring as much as being an actual fcking ninja...

[alphaMinus]

Again, because I haven't received an answer yet:

 

 

Awaiting responses.

 

In a way you are right and I understand what you say. What you must understand though, is that this issue exploded for some very real and tangible reasons concerning mobility.

 

-The change exposed the attitude of the developer on mobility actions players loved to use, very practically expressing they want less. Speaking with actions, they lead me to concur that in the future, mobility will get the same treatment which I find dreadful to say the least.

 

-They took something players loved and they did not make an addition to compensate for what many people loved to use for different reasons.

 

-In my opinion the issue of gameplay preference is completely irrelevant to mobility and my brain explodes when I tend to believe that the development assumes that these changes act as a countermeasure to said issues. 

 

-Implementation of existing mobility mechanics are not fine tuned enough to compensate for the loss of the "exploits" many players loved to use.

 

The point is, I don't care if they take out these changes as long as they are ready to implement "official" mechanics to compensate.

Edited June 10, 2013 by alphaMinus

[Bushinji]

Why no optional extraction ? If youre one of this "firsttards" everyone will be happy you &!$$ed off.

 

Also teammates can be in the mission a little bit longer without a timer reminding them that someone with the attention span of a goldfish wants to snack through missions.

weird I don't remember mentioning anything about me liking to be "first" or some crap. This is not about pissing people off or not, this is about finding a solution that satisfies (preferably) everyone. And I also wrote that one solution I would have no problem with is to make players unable to finish an objective/mission until the whole team arrived.

Yeah different play styles are VERY hard to combine with each other which is also why I mentioned the idea of people selecting their type of mission (rush/loot/explore/etc.) before entering it.

If you're not willing to find a proper solution for everyone and rather just want to insult/piss off/whatever people who are not the same opinion as you are, I suggest you stay out of the forum.

[Walkampf]

A Rhino is NEVER going to catch up with an (unmodded) Loki even with maxed Rush, Quick Rest and Marathon because he will have 1.2 sprint while Loki still has 1.6

 

And a Loki is NEVER going to be able to take as much punishment as a Rhino can take...

 

So, what's your point?

 

Different Warframes have different stats....

That's what makes them different from each other.

[MoonicusMaximus]

I never saw a ninja in any source of media using magnetic powers to crush my enemies into tiny squares.

 

What now, Sherlock?

 

Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad.

You aren't wrong. Now we should wait and see if DE didn't intend for Mag to have magnetic powers and remove them, just as De clearly must not have intended for ninjas to sit on their asses and spin in circles to break the sound barrier. Then I suppose we'll see which actions were considered exploits and which were working as intended.

[Ced23Ric]

One of the combat mechanics suffering from this is the alternating range of your slide attacks if you spam it on a horde of enemies or if you want to poke bosses like Kril while not getting hit by his hammer.

And if you love to practice "hardcore parkouring", you'll also see that you're not able to do combos anymore which use two slides in a row (i.e Corpus Ship, room with two elevators and 3 lanes, jumping from one lower lane to the other one)

 

Mhmm, if I recall correctly, poking Krill still works as described here. As for "spamming" slide-melee to avoid damage while dealing damage is one of the answers I was expecting. So, some players do spam this, helicoptering around. One confirmation. As for the mentioned tileset: Can't you sprint-slide into wallrun, into walljump, into slide alongside the outside walls to get across?

 

 

What you must understand though, is that this issue exploded for some very real and tangible reasons concerning mobility.

 

-The change exposed the attitude of the developer on mobility actions players loved to use, very practically expressing they want less. Speaking with actions, they lead me to concur that in the future, mobility will get the same treatment which I find dreadful to say the least.

 

Looking at these changes is a question in design-language. When Warframe was conceived, the idea was to make a game where players could be awesome and cool and slide, and jump and stab and what not. Fluent motions, badass action kills, you name it. But then players found out that they could just chain Sprint-Slide-Sprint-Slide-Sprint-Slide and would become a lot faster than sprinting without using (as much) stamina. In a breach of design language, players did not use the tools for coolness anymore, but for a factual mechanical advantage that looks stupid. No space ninja in their right mind would grind their knees down like that. So that was addressed and limited. Yay. Got rid of it, for the most part. Can still be used for a speedboost on one jump, but doesn't go crazy.

 

Whammo, helicoptering and Sprint-Jump-Slide-Flip-Slide-Flip reared their heads. Again, people fing a way to use tools that are meant to look cool and get you out of tight spots to be faster, break with the design language and look not as intended. DE intervenes, with a simple measure - you can still slide, it's just on a diminishing returns cooldown, encouraging varied mobility effects over spammed ones. The compensation is in the game - Rush/Quick Rest/Marathon/Acrobat are all in there, and they allow players to move fast almost all the time forever. Of course, 4 mods is a huge commitment. But that is the price of buffing one aspect of your frame - you lack room for others.

 

So, what is the problem here? It seems as if some people simply don't like that they cannot abuse a subset of mobility toolwork to behave other than intended.

[aerokiss]

Mhmm, if I recall correctly, poking Krill still works as described here. As for "spamming" slide-melee to avoid damage while dealing damage is one of the answers I was expecting. So, some players do spam this, helicoptering around. One confirmation. As for the mentioned tileset: Can't you sprint-slide into wallrun, into walljump, into slide alongside the outside walls to get across?

 

 

 

Looking at these changes is a question in design-language. When Warframe was conceived, the idea was to make a game where players could be awesome and cool and slide, and jump and stab and what not. Fluent motions, badass action kills, you name it. But then players found out that they could just chain Sprint-Slide-Sprint-Slide-Sprint-Slide and would become a lot faster than sprinting without using (as much) stamina. In a breach of design language, players did not use the tools for coolness anymore, but for a factual mechanical advantage that looks stupid. No space ninja in their right mind would grind their knees down like that. So that was addressed and limited. Yay. Got rid of it, for the most part. Can still be used for a speedboost on one jump, but doesn't go crazy.

 

Whammo, helicoptering and Sprint-Jump-Slide-Flip-Slide-Flip reared their heads. Again, people fing a way to use tools that are meant to look cool and get you out of tight spots to be faster, break with the design language and look not as intended. DE intervenes, with a simple measure - you can still slide, it's just on a diminishing returns cooldown, encouraging varied mobility effects over spammed ones. The compensation is in the game - Rush/Quick Rest/Marathon/Acrobat are all in there, and they allow players to move fast almost all the time forever. Of course, 4 mods is a huge commitment. But that is the price of buffing one aspect of your frame - you lack room for others.

 

So, what is the problem here? It seems as if some people simply don't like that they cannot abuse a subset of mobility toolwork to behave other than intended.

de staff going out of their way to make excuses and cover up bodies of lies.

[Mietz]

And a Loki is NEVER going to be able to take as much punishment as a Rhino can take...

 

So, what's your point?

 

Different Warframes have different stats....

That's what makes them different from each other.

 

My point is that you presented the argument as if mods would solve "gameplay styles".

They don't, stop pretending they do.

[Mietz]

You aren't wrong. Now we should wait and see if DE didn't intend for Mag to have magnetic powers and remove them, just as De clearly must not have intended for ninjas to sit on their asses and spin in circles to break the sound barrier. Then I suppose we'll see which actions were considered exploits and which were working as intended.

 

Then stop injecting your opinions as fact.

 

You've been whining about slide-combos since BEFORE DE decided on them, your opinion didn't cause them to remove it because its a good argument. Its arbitrary, unless you can read DE's mind, but then you should enter the JREF challenge.

[Ced23Ric]

de staff going out of their way to make excuses and cover up bodies of lies.

 

Disclaimer: I am not a DE employee. This is not a company opinion. I do not speak for DE.

 

What part eludes you here?

[aerokiss]

What part eludes you here?

what part eludes you?

[Mietz]

Looking at these changes is a question in design-language. 

 

Are Rocket Jumps in Quake considered a break in design language? K-Style GunZ? Daigo Parry and cancels in Street Fighter 2 (used competitively in tournaments)?

 

Or is this just arbitrated by the developer and therefore always right?

 

If its arbitrated by the developer then you or anyone can't make an argument about it because it all depends on what the design team wants.

If the design team decided tomorrow that helicoptering is an essential mechanic to DPS Kril, thats an arbitrary decision and you would need to swallow it to stay consistent with your argument.

What if they decided to remove melee? That would be also an arbitrary decision and you would need to agree and accept it as the developers decided this is now "intended".

 

Developers are not infallible, your agreement or disagreement with a decision needs to be supported with an argument that is more than "it looks stupid".

 

tldr: Intent is a S#&$ argument.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Mietz

[Walkampf]

My point is that you presented the argument as if mods would solve "gameplay styles".

They don't, stop pretending they do.

I'm not pretending that mods can fix gameplay styles,

I'm saying there is a good reason why they can't.

 

The Devs WANT the frames to have strengths and weaknesses.

Things like the nonstop sliding was an exploit to bypass a certain weakness of certain warframes.

[neKroMancer]

To be honest, I don't understand the fuss about this issue. Is the game 'dead' because you can't do the same thing twice in a row?

 

As far as I know, I still can chain two slide melee. I still can use horizontal wallrun to boost my speed. Movement in the game, overall, has not change that much to warrant this much reaction. DE even added some new parts in the map to help players getting around faster. If you have been playing like a one trick pony then ....WAKE UP TENNO. Learning new tricks is a part of gaming experience. 

 

You can still rush if you know what you're doing.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Then stop injecting your opinions as fact.

 

You've been whining about slide-combos since BEFORE DE decided on them, your opinion didn't cause them to remove it because its a good argument. Its arbitrary, unless you can read DE's mind, but then you should enter the JREF challenge.

I never stated that my opinions were the reason DE fixed slide exploiting.

It was my opinion that slide exploits were counterintuitive to DEs design.

It is a fact that they were removed, most likely for this exact reason.

That's my position, nothing more.

[X3Evanescence]

Mhmm, if I recall correctly, poking Krill still works as described here. As for "spamming" slide-melee to avoid damage while dealing damage is one of the answers I was expecting. So, some players do spam this, helicoptering around. One confirmation. As for the mentioned tileset: Can't you sprint-slide into wallrun, into walljump, into slide alongside the outside walls to get across?

 

 

 

Looking at these changes is a question in design-language. When Warframe was conceived, the idea was to make a game where players could be awesome and cool and slide, and jump and stab and what not. Fluent motions, badass action kills, you name it. But then players found out that they could just chain Sprint-Slide-Sprint-Slide-Sprint-Slide and would become a lot faster than sprinting without using (as much) stamina. In a breach of design language, players did not use the tools for coolness anymore, but for a factual mechanical advantage that looks stupid. No space ninja in their right mind would grind their knees down like that. So that was addressed and limited. Yay. Got rid of it, for the most part. Can still be used for a speedboost on one jump, but doesn't go crazy.

 

Whammo, helicoptering and Sprint-Jump-Slide-Flip-Slide-Flip reared their heads. Again, people fing a way to use tools that are meant to look cool and get you out of tight spots to be faster, break with the design language and look not as intended. DE intervenes, with a simple measure - you can still slide, it's just on a diminishing returns cooldown, encouraging varied mobility effects over spammed ones. The compensation is in the game - Rush/Quick Rest/Marathon/Acrobat are all in there, and they allow players to move fast almost all the time forever. Of course, 4 mods is a huge commitment. But that is the price of buffing one aspect of your frame - you lack room for others.

 

So, what is the problem here? It seems as if some people simply don't like that they cannot abuse a subset of mobility toolwork to behave other than intended.

 

What part eludes you here?

 

what part eludes you?

 

Woah Woah all chill!

[Mietz]

It was my opinion that slide exploits were counterintuitive to DEs design.

It is a fact that they were removed, most likely for this exact reason.

 

 

And I repeat: YOU CAN NOT KNOW THIS because intent of DE is not open to you. Correlation =/= causation.

[Orcao]

 

Again, because I haven't received an answer yet:

Awaiting responses.

The "cooldown" isn't much of a cooldown. It made slide extremely unresponsive (sometimes it gives momentum, sometimes it steals it). On top of this there is ZERO in game feedback letting you know such a cooldown exists or is active. Furthermore, some people can still slide spam, while others can't. This makes me think the "cooldown" is done in a similar manner to automatic pistols, which are also inconsistent between players/computers (an issue that is more than likely known).

On top of the nerf to sliding, it seems the new auto aim options effect melee slide attack, so you'll occasionally slide at an enemy (even with them off), resulting in some pretty terrible situations. The sheer fact of the matter is that slide spamming wasn't the problem. The problem is that some people take it slow, some people go fast in public games. The only solution to this will be to allow some form of designation of room type. So people that want to take it slow and farm can make rooms to do so, whilst those that want to go fast can do it in their room type.

[aerokiss]

 

The "cooldown" isn't much of a cooldown. It made slide extremely unresponsive (sometimes it gives momentum, sometimes it steals it). On top of this there is ZERO in game feedback letting you know such a cooldown exists or is active. Furthermore, some people can still slide spam, while others can't. This makes me think the "cooldown" is done in a similar manner to automatic pistols, which are also inconsistent between players/computers (an issue that is more than likely known).

On top of the nerf to sliding, it seems the new auto aim options effect melee slide attack, so you'll occasionally slide at an enemy (even with them off), resulting in some pretty terrible situations. The sheer fact of the matter is that slide spamming wasn't the problem. The problem is that some people take it slow, some people go fast in public games. The only solution to this will be to allow some form of designation of room type. So people that want to take it slow and farm can make rooms to do so, whilst those that want to go fast can do it in their room type.

hey guy you share my opinion.. 

don't see why they'd nerf sliding to slow people down. even if they do get to the extraction, they still have to wait for the others...

[alphaMinus]

Mhmm, if I recall correctly, poking Krill still works as described here. As for "spamming" slide-melee to avoid damage while dealing damage is one of the answers I was expecting. So, some players do spam this, helicoptering around. One confirmation. As for the mentioned tileset: Can't you sprint-slide into wallrun, into walljump, into slide alongside the outside walls to get across?

 

 

 

Looking at these changes is a question in design-language. When Warframe was conceived, the idea was to make a game where players could be awesome and cool and slide, and jump and stab and what not. Fluent motions, badass action kills, you name it. But then players found out that they could just chain Sprint-Slide-Sprint-Slide-Sprint-Slide and would become a lot faster than sprinting without using (as much) stamina. In a breach of design language, players did not use the tools for coolness anymore, but for a factual mechanical advantage that looks stupid. No space ninja in their right mind would grind their knees down like that. So that was addressed and limited. Yay. Got rid of it, for the most part. Can still be used for a speedboost on one jump, but doesn't go crazy.

 

Whammo, helicoptering and Sprint-Jump-Slide-Flip-Slide-Flip reared their heads. Again, people fing a way to use tools that are meant to look cool and get you out of tight spots to be faster, break with the design language and look not as intended. DE intervenes, with a simple measure - you can still slide, it's just on a diminishing returns cooldown, encouraging varied mobility effects over spammed ones. The compensation is in the game - Rush/Quick Rest/Marathon/Acrobat are all in there, and they allow players to move fast almost all the time forever. Of course, 4 mods is a huge commitment. But that is the price of buffing one aspect of your frame - you lack room for others.

 

So, what is the problem here? It seems as if some people simply don't like that they cannot abuse a subset of mobility toolwork to behave other than intended.

 

The point is what developers and part of the player base call exploitative or abusive, or plain ugly evolved to be part of said design language for part of the player base.

 

I can not stretch the importance of this fact: Playes grew to love to use said "exploits". They loved how they looked or how they "felt". Why can't they have the tools to enjoy the game as they like.

 

Said design language should not be set in stone. It evolves and changes taking onto account user's needs. At this point user needs dictate implementation of mechanics that satisfy their play style. 

 

The developer should not force me to use the mechanics he prefers to use. Its the same thing with the whole discussion about "nerfing" and "buffing".

 

Don't nerf a mechanic I love in order to make me use the other mechanic that for many reasons I don't use enough. Instead, make the other mechanics better. 

Edited June 10, 2013 by alphaMinus

[MoonicusMaximus]

And I repeat: YOU CAN NOT KNOW THIS because intent of DE is not open to you. Correlation =/= causation.

Which is why I said "most likely" instead of "absolutely". Correlation doesn't give an immediate fill-proof understand, but it does convey a general sense of direction that one can make harmless assumptions from. Slide cooldown made helicoptering and constant flip spam an inefficient way of increasing movement. This leads me to beleive that they do not want people to be able to use these mechanics to bypass warframe-specific speeds.

Aside from the unrealistic notion that DE removed slideabuse solely to tick people off, I don't see another reason why they would make the change. Thus I am led to my conclusion. I could very well be wrong, but time will tell.

[Kedlaw]

To start with I am against endless spinning. It breaks the game.

 

What I'm opposed to is the way DE solved the problem. This was an amputation. Nobody bothered to save the hand.

 

I don't like this because I can't do my favorite move anymore. Slide>Jump>Hek in the face>Air slide>SpinAttack.

Yes I can run jump, but we all know that slide jump is so much cooler :) run jump animation is so... so ... pedestrian :)

 

One more example.  Enemy behind low cover. Me run > slide to get low profile avoid fire > jump > air slide > knock down whoever was on the other side. Without two slides I need to put my face into enemy's barrel. Doesn't make sense.

 

Constructive part (If by any chance DE reads this)

 

Implement a counter. Let the time out kick in after two slides. I personally did not use more than two slides close to each other.

 

 

 

To people who complain that their slow frames are not fast. : They were designed to be slow.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Kedlaw

[alphaMinus]

Are Rocket Jumps in Quake considered a break in design language? K-Style GunZ? Daigo Parry and cancels in Street Fighter 2 (used competitively in tournaments)?

 

Or is this just arbitrated by the developer and therefore always right?

 

If its arbitrated by the developer then you or anyone can't make an argument about it because it all depends on what the design team wants.

If the design team decided tomorrow that helicoptering is an essential mechanic to DPS Kril, thats an arbitrary decision and you would need to swallow it to stay consistent with your argument.

What if they decided to remove melee? That would be also an arbitrary decision and you would need to agree and accept it as the developers decided this is now "intended".

 

Developers are not infallible, your agreement or disagreement with a decision needs to be supported with an argument that is more than "it looks stupid".

 

tldr: Intent is a S#&$ argument.

 

I am in total agreement. The developer has a very valid opportunity to expand upon the creative use of mechanics by players and instead of that he decides to act not only is disregard of players choices, but with a directly opposite way. 

 

There are questions that need answering asap. I am very anxious to know what is the stance of the developer at this point.

 

-Did they implemented the changes that take away mobility as a way to counter "rushing"?

In a way I feel insulted because it really looks like (although I force myself to think otherwise) that they made these changes as a countermeasure to "rushing". If that is the case, then:

 

a. I am very insulted because I am precluded form the whole equation that dictates changes as these.

 

b. I find this reaction either outrageous , non sequitur or insane since I can not possibly fathom how globally scaling down mobility will stop "rushers".

 

-Do they want more mobility and speed in this game or not? 

I find that any direction that dictates less mobility and speed options is a game breaker for me. One of the factors that keeps me coming back playing Warframe every day is the fast pace of the game and with every new patch I find less and less.

 

 

-What is the next step? 

Are they planning to revert the change? Are they planning on investing some time to implement solid mechanics? 

Edited June 10, 2013 by alphaMinus