Warframe Movement As Of Today Is Downright Garbage

[Bushinji]

To be honest, I don't understand the fuss about this issue. Is the game 'dead' because you can't do the same thing twice in a row?

 

As far as I know, I still can chain two slide melee. I still can use horizontal wallrun to boost my speed. Movement in the game, overall, has not change that much to warrant this much reaction. DE even added some new parts in the map to help players getting around faster. If you have been playing like a one trick pony then ....WAKE UP TENNO. Learning new tricks is a part of gaming experience. 

 

You can still rush if you know what you're doing.

So what if they take out the acceleration from your horizontal wallrun? Oh no problem right? I can still "learn new tricks" to replace this because the game has so many other ways to go around this issue...

Sadly there are a good load of wallrun combos where having two accelerations from the slide mechanic was essential to properly pull them off. And I don't ONLY want to use those wallrun combos on the new map chunks, I still want to use them on the old maps.

[Bushinji]

The sheer fact of the matter is that slide spamming wasn't the problem. The problem is that some people take it slow, some people go fast in public games.

Congratz, you just won a duck with a cocktail umbrella. *thumps up*

[Bushinji]

The point is what developers and part of the player base call exploitative or abusive, or plain ugly evolved to be part of said design language for part of the player base.

 

I can not stretch the importance of this fact: Playes grew to love to use said "exploits". They loved how they looked or how they "felt". Why can't they have the tools to enjoy the game as they like.

 

Said design language should not be set in stone. It evolves and changes taking onto account user's needs. At this point user needs dictate implementation of mechanics that satisfy their play style. 

 

The developer should not force me to use the mechanics he prefers to use. Its the same thing with the whole discussion about "nerfing" and "buffing".

 

Don't nerf a mechanic I love in order to make me use the other mechanic that for many reasons I don't use enough. Istead, make the other mechanics better. 

another saint! Oh mah gawd this is like Christmas, Birthday and 10 pounds of chicken nuggets at the same time....

As a creator/inventor you should not be limited by your imagination alone or copy what is already existent. Many mechanics and materials as we use them today were born/discovered by coincidence (like the microwave or saccharin).

So instead of removing everything which is not intended, you should rather embrace and/or replace them with mechanics similar to them.

[Ced23Ric]

I would, by the way, like to back something up:

 

It was my opinion that slide exploits were counterintuitive to DEs design.

 

For the same reason, other expressions have been removed before. DE has a strong feeling of how they want their game to look.

 

Here's the concesion though, because I do understand the overarching reason: People like investing skill and getting an advantage for it. If you can chain events, you gain speed. The problem is, currently, that the event chain was one that opposed DE design language. So the solution, if one would like to find one, rather than merely complain, is almost at hand: DE should install a skill-based way of going fast that is in tune with their design language, yet allows players to invest skill to receive an advantage.

 

It doesn't have to be slide-spam. It could be something else. The details of acceptable ninja-motions are in DE's field.

 

So, an olive branch extended - could we agree to a point where both statements are true and coexist?

• DE's design language does not favour repeated sliding/wave dashing/flipping.
• There should be a skill-based way to go faster than normal.

From that point forward, how about we brainstorm a solution to be presented to DE?

 

PS: Rocket jumping is art. Strafe jumping is art. Later versions of Quake had the initial "bug" replicated to make strafe jumping possible again. But that's Q3A, not Warframe. Every development / art and design angle is different for different games.

[ReiganCross]

In all honesty, I have a hard time agreeing with this. The threads keep popping up, because people can't spam jump/slide anymore, but there are a boatload more options on how to get around. Most rooms have walls. Wallruns into walljumps are really fast. And parcour traversing still works fine. There is suddenly a cooldown on one element (sliding) and the entire movement is "downright garbage"?

 

Can't follow. Did you really just repeat jump/slide before?

 

Disclaimer: I am not a DE employee. This is not a company opinion. I do not speak for DE. I am not trying to instigate unrest. I am 100% confused how such a minor change to one aspect of movement spells the doom and downfall of the entire toolbox of motions.

I just found that argument and stick with it 100%. Hell, i don't care how much you slide-boost the level, you'll NEVER be as fast as my Rushing Marathon Ash with just that trick, not when i'm wall jumping every little crate i can find to cross the room in a single jump while you would need slideboost. But that ain't the argument, you want to slide strike a lot and i can actually respect that. I just would mix other tricks along with the slide strike (such as Rhino Charge or Slash Dash) to mix things up, because pure slide striking (especially since double slide-striking they added on U7) gets old kind of fast. Damn, add some jump strikes in there for christ's sake, you look like a ballet dancet doing those spins.

[Bushinji]

To start with I am against endless spinning. It breaks the game.

 

What I'm opposed to is the way DE solved the problem. This was an amputation. Nobody bothered to save the hand.

 

I don't like this because I can't do my favorite move anymore. Slide>Jump>Hek in the face>Air slide>SpinAttack.

Yes I can run jump, but we all know that slide jump is so much cooler :) run jump animation is so... so ... pedestrian :)

 

One more example.  Enemy behind low cover. Me run > slide to get low profile avoid fire > jump > air slide > knock down whoever was on the other side. Without two slides I need to put my face into enemy's barrel. Doesn't make sense.

 

Constructive part (If by any chance DE reads this)

 

Implement a counter. Let the time out kick in after two slides. I personally did not use more than two slides close to each other.

 

 

 

To people who complain that their slow frames are not fast. : They were designed to be slow.

Good point, though I don't understand how endless spinning is "breaking the game" and secondly: slow frames were never fast since EVERY Warframe was able to use it. Every Warframe has been slowed down by this update.

[_Absolom_]

I never saw a ninja in any source of media using magnetic powers to crush my enemies into tiny squares.

 

What now, Sherlock?

 

Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad.

 

And no, stop searching the Naruto wiki for an example of this happening.

But....naruto is awesome O_O

[Bushinji]

I just found that argument and stick with it 100%. Hell, i don't care how much you slide-boost the level, you'll NEVER be as fast as my Rushing Marathon Ash with just that trick, not when i'm wall jumping every little crate i can find to cross the room in a single jump while you would need slideboost. But that ain't the argument, you want to slide strike a lot and i can actually respect that. I just would mix other tricks along with the slide strike (such as Rhino Charge or Slash Dash) to mix things up, because pure slide striking (especially since double slide-striking they added on U7) gets old kind of fast. Damn, add some jump strikes in there for christ's sake, you look like a ballet dancet doing those spins.

And you don't look like a hyperactive flea with all those crate-jumping? ^^

For your info, get some melee weapon with high rate of fire (Fang) and add Fury to it. Now do an air-slide-slash. See the acceleration? No crate-jump pro is able to catch up with that especially on maps that don't have crates or where the ceiling is so low that crate-jumping would be counter-productive (which are in most cases the oldest map chunks).

Plus, Rhino Charge & Slash Dash limit the boost mechanics to Rhino & Excalibur.

 

[Law.]

I can barely notice the difference. Maybe I don't spam it as often as some other people. As long as I can still chain slide, I am happy with it.

[Kedlaw]

Good point, though I don't understand how endless spinning is "breaking the game" and secondly: slow frames were never fast since EVERY Warframe was able to use it. Every Warframe has been slowed down by this update.

 

Well "breaks" might have been a bit strong :) It was an exploit.  

[alphaMinus]

another saint! Oh mah gawd this is like Christmas, Birthday and 10 pounds of chicken nuggets at the same time....

As a creator/inventor you should not be limited by your imagination alone or copy what is already existent. Many mechanics and materials as we use them today were born/discovered by coincidence (like the microwave or saccharin).

So instead of removing everything which is not intended, you should rather embrace and/or replace them with mechanics similar to them.

 

I hear you man, I am also really frustrated by the mentality involved behind these changes if not about the changes themselves. I was hoping that De would address the issue more carefully but it seems like we had to go through all this uproar in order to gather enough voices to underline the mobility issues.

 

First time around when the fuzz about knifeskating, bunny hoping and other "exploits" based on jump sliding begun, there where some very well written opinions and talk about "emergent gameplay". That being gameplay styles emerging from the creative use of existing mechanisms. 

 

 

 

I would, by the way, like to back something up:

 

 

For the same reason, other expressions have been removed before. DE has a strong feeling of how they want their game to look.

 

Here's the concesion though, because I do understand the overarching reason: People like investing skill and getting an advantage for it. If you can chain events, you gain speed. The problem is, currently, that the event chain was one that opposed DE design language. So the solution, if one would like to find one, rather than merely complain, is almost at hand: DE should install a skill-based way of going fast that is in tune with their design language, yet allows players to invest skill to receive an advantage.

 

It doesn't have to be slide-spam. It could be something else. The details of acceptable ninja-motions are in DE's field.

 

So, an olive branch extended - could we agree to a point where both statements are true and coexist?

• DE's design language does not favour repeated sliding/wave dashing/flipping.
• There should be a skill-based way to go faster than normal.

From that point forward, how about we brainstorm a solution to be presented to DE?

 

PS: Rocket jumping is art. Strafe jumping is art. Later versions of Quake had the initial "bug" replicated to make strafe jumping possible again. But that's Q3A, not Warframe. Every development / art and design angle is different for different games.

 

Alright well said! That's what I'm talking about. I want to state though that I understand the compromise of the aesthetic value of "unlawful" techniques consistently used by many. But I must argue that we are still in beta and this aspect should come at least second to the ergonomic value of mechanics (gameplay).

 

What is better? Fix the visual of the game for half of the player base or break the gameplay value for the other half?

 

Concerning the important stuff. How do we move forward? Some thoughts:

 

-Learning from history we know that players used movement actions chained with melee actions. Following that vein, DE can introduce more maneuvers/ actions that act in a synergistic way with existing ones. In other words chaining actions creates combos that produce speed. There should be limitations that prevent the redundant use of said actions but player should be able to chain them  in sequences to create an even larger movement boost.

 

Level 1. Action

Level 2. Action + action = combo = movement utility

Level 3. Combo + combo = extra movement utility

 

-Take away or minimize the global cooldown between actions and powers. I want to super jump then slash dash and then uses action combo while on air. As it is now there is a global cooldown counter which forces you to wait before using another power or action.

 

Solutions similar to the above will help to produce:

-Long and visually beautifull movement sequences

-smooth and elegant and most importantly versatile ways to traverse the levels

-create a system of movement that players will always strive to become better. The more skilled the player is, the more beautiful and faster his movement will be.

-Built on a more articulated movement system when creating challenging levels.

Edited June 10, 2013 by alphaMinus

[WarG0d]

In all honesty, I have a hard time agreeing with this. The threads keep popping up, because people can't spam jump/slide anymore, but there are a boatload more options on how to get around. Most rooms have walls. Wallruns into walljumps are really fast. And parcour traversing still works fine. There is suddenly a cooldown on one element (sliding) and the entire movement is "downright garbage"?

 

Can't follow. Did you really just repeat jump/slide before?

 

Disclaimer: I am not a DE employee. This is not a company opinion. I do not speak for DE. I am not trying to instigate unrest. I am 100% confused how such a minor change to one aspect of movement spells the doom and downfall of the entire toolbox of motions.

 

I'll chime here. This change just doesn't traversing the map it affects combat, which the OP touched based on in the first paragraph. The combat is what drew me into playing the game in the first place, being able to smoothly switch it up between ranged and melee was pretty big, but has been pretty muched hacked away. Sliding into a mob for a sweeping attack is pointless now since it is now more intuitive to just run up charge the melee weapon and start slashing away. Slide attacking now I pretty much only connect with the leading edge of a group or end up falling short and hitting nothing but air.

[Excitonex]

I would, by the way, like to back something up:

 

 

For the same reason, other expressions have been removed before. DE has a strong feeling of how they want their game to look.

 

Here's the concesion though, because I do understand the overarching reason: People like investing skill and getting an advantage for it. If you can chain events, you gain speed. The problem is, currently, that the event chain was one that opposed DE design language. So the solution, if one would like to find one, rather than merely complain, is almost at hand: DE should install a skill-based way of going fast that is in tune with their design language, yet allows players to invest skill to receive an advantage.

 

It doesn't have to be slide-spam. It could be something else. The details of acceptable ninja-motions are in DE's field.

 

So, an olive branch extended - could we agree to a point where both statements are true and coexist?

• DE's design language does not favour repeated sliding/wave dashing/flipping.
• There should be a skill-based way to go faster than normal.

From that point forward, how about we brainstorm a solution to be presented to DE?

 

PS: Rocket jumping is art. Strafe jumping is art. Later versions of Quake had the initial "bug" replicated to make strafe jumping possible again. But that's Q3A, not Warframe. Every development / art and design angle is different for different games.

My main issue with the cooldown is how it has negatively effected how our frames react after sliding or what happens when we enter a slide again too early. There is no indicator about this cooldown. It's hidden and I could be, and have been, killed because of the inconsistency in the maneuver. If you want to control rushing and slide abuse make it cost stamina. How does adding a cooldown where you fall to one knee and move 2 inches make your game look any better for the player? It does not.

 

I did also enjoy the idea that moving faster required more skill. This is the second reason why I am disappointed by this change. There are still skillful ways to move around so I am not overly attached to this point but I do hope that we'll see more movement based combinations similar to what we have lost. Right now we can launch ourselves off walls, if DE can build more on this while making some of the current animations a bit smoother I don't think we will have lost anything.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Excitonex

[Majicebe]

In all honesty, I have a hard time agreeing with this. The threads keep popping up, because people can't spam jump/slide anymore, but there are a boatload more options on how to get around. Most rooms have walls. Wallruns into walljumps are really fast. And parcour traversing still works fine. There is suddenly a cooldown on one element (sliding) and the entire movement is "downright garbage"?

 

Can't follow. Did you really just repeat jump/slide before?

 

Disclaimer: I am not a DE employee. This is not a company opinion. I do not speak for DE. I am not trying to instigate unrest. I am 100% confused how such a minor change to one aspect of movement spells the doom and downfall of the entire toolbox of motions.

He's exaggerating... it's the Internet, get used to it.

 

His point is valid (if a bit hyperbolic).  The movement feels weird and inconsistent now.  I won't exaggerate in stating that the primary reason I've stuck with this game since I started is the joy the crazy freedom-of-movement this game gives.  It's all skill-based movement -- this is not something that can be said for nearly any game out there (maybe Prototype?).

 

The act of moving in this game IS WHAT MAKES IT STAND OUT and what makes it fun (imo).  Anyone can make a 1st or 3rd person shooter these days (and just about every company does).  Most of the "skill" in those games comes from who can target the enemies' heads the fastest and push shoot.  This is a markely different experience -- it's not about aiming at a face and shooting so much as it is about how you vanquish your enemy.  THAT IS UNIQUE.

 

When movement is hindered in a game that is very heavily dependent upon fluid movement, it detracts from overall gameplay.  You can change mods, change frames, whatever, but the problem is that the movement has been altered for this movement-based game and those of us who have spent a great deal of time (and some of us money) have a right to be upset with how the game has changed.

 

I personally don't enjoy the game as much now.  That's not going to prevent me playing it, but knowing that the game can change this much with one little stealth nerf certainly makes me question whether I want to spend any additional money on it.

 

The devs aren't dumb -- they've made a great game, but they also need to be made aware of the state of the game from the gamers' (THEIR CUSTOMERS') viewpoint.  The game is less fun now.  To some that might be slightly less fun, and others significantly less fun, and then others who maybe didn't use their movement as a weapon might not even notice.  Regardless, it's impacted the game for people who prize movement the most, and my biggest gripe is that THERE ARE BETTER SOLUTIONS TO RUSHERS THAN HAMSTRINGING EVERYONE.

 

The simplest solution I can think of is that if you're playing with more than 2 people, and 1 or two people get too far away from the rest of the group (too far can be defined later), then provide the same effect on the rushers as you get during the atmosphere leak where their shields/health slowly deplete until they get back in-range of the group.  That might not prevent 2 people from ditching two others, but I think it would go a long way towards both having rushers and also having slackers take waaay too long to get through the map.  This isn't necessarily the best option, but I'm sure a smart company with a great community can crowdsource a better one than the very annoying one we have now.

[Mietz]

Aside from the unrealistic notion that DE removed slideabuse solely to tick people off, I don't see another reason why they would make the change. Thus I am led to my conclusion. I could very well be wrong, but time will tell.

 

Time has told: 

 

 

Like I said, you will need to swallow this because your argument was intent, now we have the slide back, intent has changed?

I posted this here and necroed this thread because I want to show people how $&*&*#(%& an argument from intent is.

 

Everyone that has posted in this thread with the argument of "intent": What now Sherlock?

 

Does this mean that this was, in fact, not an exploit? Is it now forever confirmed that it is not "abuse of game mechanics"?

It's right here, the functionality is back, it was re-implemented, so it must be intended.

 

I want to never hear about "movement exploits" ever again from you people as long as your argument is intent and what DE does in their patch notes.