There are only 6 major roles for frames in the game and Trinity dominates almost half of them

[Attel_Malagate]

On 01/04/2016 at 11:34 PM, Fifield said:

By arbitrarily reducing the number of roles to three, of course no warframe will dominate more than one.  But look, even with your arbitrary number of roles:
There are 5+ frames who compete in Crowd Control.
There are 6+ frames who compete in Damage Dealing.

But there is just one warframe that dominates Support: Trinity.

Peraps, there is no warframe that has been deseigned only for support exept trinity ?

Why not add more support frame instead of leaving this category empty ?

Edited April 3, 2016 by nononimous

[Fifield]

45 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

You're ludicrous.   The point is (...)

You're telling me what my point is?  And I'm the ludicrous one?

1 hour ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Trinity doesn't need to be "balanced" (read: nerfed) because she's not imbalanced, and you have yet to provide even a hint of a single valid reason that she is.

11 pages of proof and counting plus everyone knows she is so who are you trying to fool?

[Fifield]

1 hour ago, nononimous said:

Peraps, there is no warframe that has been deseigned only for support exept trinity ?

What powers would that frame have to have to be competitive with Trinity?

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

3 hours ago, Fifield said:

You're telling me what my point is?  And I'm the ludicrous one?

11 pages of proof and counting plus everyone knows she is so who are you trying to fool?

 

Clearly you're incapable of understanding that your "point" is actually a point against your argument.  Anyone can use the Tonkor, and a LOT of them use it a LOT better than Trinity.  Even if it were a Trinity only weapon (magically) there are still MANY frames that could out DPS her (Nova/Mirage/Banshee, anyone with a prompted finisher ability, technically frames like Nekros and Nyx as well, seeing as they have abilities that literally control enemies, and enemies scale infinitely).  Your point is invalid, and, frankly, a complete red herring.

11 pages of you stating opinions with no evidence whatsoever is not proof, and, in fact, considering that a huge majority of the people in this thread disagree with you on all points?  (go back and look at the votes).  I'd say that your thread has made a pretty strong case against your own statements.

I can either conclude that you're rather young, and have not yet learned any better, or that you are a rather ignorant individual (likely with low self esteem for some reason) who willfully refuses to even consider that he/she could be wrong.  (But... armchair psychology isn't exactly know for its accuracy, right?)  You could always just be, I dunno, completely ludicrous as well.  :3

There's only one person being "fool(ed)" here.  (Sic)

3 hours ago, Fifield said:

What powers would that frame have to have to be competitive with Trinity?

There aren't any other purely support frames (although Vauban comes the closest, he's virtually entirely CC focused with a magnetic debuff on his bounce pads), it'd be literally impossible for any new frame to compete with Trinity on exactly the things Trinity does (because we all know that this is what you REALLY mean) without either being overall better than her or overall worse than her.

If you mean support abilities in general, I suppose you could make a support that did bursts of team invis in an AoE or did a (hard to do) sustained invis somehow on one ability, a team damage reduction on another ability (these kind of overlap... don't they?), buffed damage with another ability and weakened enemies in some way (maybe accuracy?) in another.

Barring that, you could come up with some kind of frame that was entirely based on messing with multipliers, like say created AoEs that buffed the health of allies inside (say like +4x with un-modified power strength) and any health they kept, above their base, would convert into energy when the ability expired (at a small percentage, with an inverse relationship to the frame(being given health/energy)'s normal HP.  Say starting at 8% for frames that have 225(innate) hp at level 30 and scaling down to 4% for frames that have 450(innate) hp at level 30.  This would give a frame with no health mods about 70 energy at the end of the ability, if they managed to keep all of their bonus health for the duration.  The frame casting it could modify for power strength to give a bigger health buff and more energy on expiration, or minimal duration to give the energy quickly.  The skill should probably be a 2 skill, and cost 50 energy. 

I'd recommend that the 1 skill be some sort of ally-only buff, say increasing their elemental damage (from all sources) by 100% (scaling with power strength), and if the button were held down for say 1 seconds to "charge" it would increase physical damage from all sources by 100% and elemental by 150%.  If they charged the ability for 2 seconds,  it would keep the previous buffs, but increase damage-dealing status proc's damage by 250%.  Obviously this be some kind of cone-shaped wave that would attach to the first ally struck, but I think that it should only buff one ally max with a single cast, and that the buff itself should scale with power strength.  Obviously the duration would be duration based, and the range would scale with range, but if no allies are struck the wave returns to you and refunds the energy.

 Let the 3 skill be to deploy 2 little autonomous creatures/faeries/robots (scaling with power strength) that seek out allies within an area and instantly revive them (the creature would sacrifice itself to do this) on contact, also giving the rezzed allies a high damage reduction (say 70%) scaling up very gradually with power strength to 100% at, say, 225% power strength or greater.  Let the base duration be in the realm of 10-15 seconds, and scale with duration mods.  This would be able to revive the caster as well, and would disincentivize using QT to not die, because it would waste all your energy.  I think that the revive creatures, unless used, should stay alive indefinitely, but the duration of the damage resistance would be based on duration.  These would normally be limited so that you can only have one set deployed at a time.

The 4 would have to be a modifier for the previous three.  You cast it, to set up a supercharge (with a max of 1-3 charges, I dunno, probably subject to balancing) and depending on what happens next, it gets expended to empower one or more of the previous three abilities.

• Say if someone dies and you have res creatures deployed from skill 3, their radius automatically and instantly expands by 300% and they get buffed travel speed for 10 seconds, using up one of the supercharges.
  • If you cast the revive ability while you have a supercharge, but you already have creatures deployed elsewhere, you surpass the deploy limit, expending a charge, and deploy one more set (max 3).
• If the health buff AoE expires, the energy is granted, and the AoE recasts itself automatically, instantly, and for free, consuming a charge instead of energy.
• If you cast 1 fully charged while supercharged, instead of shooting a wave, it expends a supercharge and buffs all allies on the map with the fully charged 1 buff instantly, and even applies the buff to yourself at 50% strength.

This would be a support stronger at pure support than Trinity (because of auto-revives, and being able to revive itself), with a somewhat weaker energy generation skill, and would have a totally different flavor.

Will it happen?  Probably not, because it literally does all of the same things that Trinity does (in totally different ways) but gets an auto revive too, in exchange for less energy generation.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Vitalis_Inamorta
Reaffirmation of ludicrousity, accuracy upgrade.

[Guest]

On 3/20/2016 at 0:32 PM, Fifield said:

How many players use the Karak?  0.2%?

I like the Karak more than Soma... the feel just suits me.

On 3/20/2016 at 11:41 AM, rawr1254 said:

1. Single target damage(Rests finisher opener)
2. AOE damage(Maim)
3. Crow Control(Maim/Pacify Augment)
4. Energy Provider
5. Healer(Mend)
6. Immunity(Pacify)
7. Damage buffer(Provoke/Rage)
8. Undetectability(Rest)
9. Farming
10. Speed Boost(Metamorphosis[Day])

--> Equinox's roles in bold.
 

Call the nerf band wagon

And this.

You can't just say Trinity fits several roles and this is a reason for nerfing. You have to dig deep within her abilities and call for a nerf because of what her abilities do. Plus I barely see Equinox these days.

On 3/20/2016 at 8:55 AM, Fifield said:

This leaves the other 29 frames to compete over the remaining roles.  No wonder ~19 warframes are largely unused.

The major roles in rough order of importance:

1. Crowd control
2. Energy provider
3. Defence
4. Undetectability
5. AOE damage
6. Healer
   
   --> Trinity-dominated roles in bold.  She's also one of the best at defence.  AOE damage is low on the list because of weapons like Tonkor and Sonicor.
    
7. Single target damage
8. Damage buffing 
9. Farming
10. Speed boost
    
    --> Minor roles.  Guns do already hit incredibly more damage for #7 and #8.  #9 is a barely legitimate role.

[important note, #numbers were changed after a page and a half of replies for readability.  Sorry to everyone who replied beforehand]

So how do we split 8-10 roles among 30 warframes?  The key to an interesting variety of warframes is to split a role so that one frame is good at half (or less) of it, whilst another frame is good at the other half. eg re #3 Blessing provides semi permanent incoming damage negation whilst moving.   Snowglobe provides full immunity AOE (bar hook) whilst static.

Note also:
#2: Energy Vampire is an order of magnitude more powerful than anything else in the game.  Oh and it provides overshields as well.
#6: Blessing provides instant full health + shields.  The only way it could be stronger is providing damage reduction (for which it provides 99%) or providing shields beyond normal capacity (which an EV augment does).

This post isn't just about how ridiculously OP and other-frame-obsoleting Trinity is.  

Yes, I agree Trinity is OP. However, it is pretty unreasonable to fit frames into specific roles. How do you fit Equinox into any of these? According to your logic, Equinox should be the most OP frame ever, being capable of doing so many things.

The point I'm trying to make is, you have the option to ignore the meta. And it's totally fine. And it is not reasonable to stereotype ANY warframe to fit a certain "role". Just do what you want.

[silversilver]

Smacking trin with a nerfbat  balance isnt addressing the issue. The issue is that without trin and other frames like Blind mirage, very late end game would be nigh impossible considering the sheer amount of scaling and 1 hits that happen late game. The solution isnt to nerf trin but rather to make other frames an option. Other frames that can heal are pretty S#&$ at the moment to be honest. Buffing frames like equinox and oberon would give people more options on what to play when the going gets tough. 

When there's pretty much only one healer in the game out of like 30 frames that can keep up with the demands of late game then you know you have a problem. Sure other frames can heal(very poorly i might add) but take those frames, put them on a high level mission(doesnt even have to be high level, most healers suck period) and watch your team die.

Its not that trin is perfect(needs a bit of touching up, literally almost no reason to use her 1 considering her 4 does it better) but its that all other healing frames suck so bad trin is one of the only options if you want to stay competitive/keep your team alive 

Edited April 4, 2016 by silversilver

[Fifield]

Since you asked politely:

9 hours ago, Madho said:

Yes, I agree Trinity is OP. However, it is pretty unreasonable to fit frames into specific roles. How do you fit Equinox into any of these? According to your logic, Equinox should be the most OP frame ever, being capable of doing so many things.

As it says in the original post and even the title, we're talking about which frames dominate roles.

However you make up the roles the same result occurs.  Trinity dominates whereas all other major roles are shared between other warframes.  Indeed, you can see it's impossible for support frames including Equinox and Oberon to compete.

Equinox is quite well built IMHO -- DE clearly used a list like mine to make her a Jack-of-all-Trades.  But she's far from dominating any role.

Secondly, Trinity is responsible for the loathed skill spam meta.

9 hours ago, Madho said:

The point I'm trying to make is, you have the option to ignore the meta.

But we don't!
Doing the current 1st Sortie (Grineer), some MR20 insisted on Blinding all the enemies.  Other Sorties, I've left 4x in a row because players were cheesing them.  Sorties are the only challenging (=fun) content but I'm limited 2 missions a day.

If we want to play this game with others, we effectively have no choice but to accept their CC & Tonkor spamming cheese.

[Fifield]

6 hours ago, silversilver said:

When there's pretty much only one healer in the game out of like 30 frames that can keep up with the demands of late game then you know you have a problem.

I know, it's obvious.  Especially when she's the only one who can provide lots of energy.

Yet there are literally 11 pages of players disputing this.

7 hours ago, silversilver said:

Its not that trin is perfect(needs a bit of touching up, literally almost no reason to use her 1 considering her 4 does it better) but its that all other healing frames suck so bad trin is one of the only options if you want to stay competitive/keep your team alive 

How does another frame compete with insta-full heal + full shields + overshield + 99% semi-permanent damage reduction?

It's impossible, especially when Trinity is the only decent (or half-decent) energy provider in the game.

And there are several other non-frame methods to heal oneself so healer frames aren't needed much anyway.

[NovusNova]

This thread has already been given two chances at remaining civil rather than being locked.

However it has failed to remain civil again and people have been using insults and personal attacks to get their opinion across.

Locking.