Fix Limbo's Potential and intuitiveness!

Zyrinthian · April 8, 2016

15 hours ago, CortezHextus said:

I keep visiting Limbo threads because I primarily run Limbo. I've been thinking hard about how to make him better and talking to a lot of people. I love a lot of things in the posts here. I'd like to contribute my Ideas. There seems to be a fair bit of consensus about some things. So I'll list those first.

Consensus Items:

1) The rift should be consistent. Things in the rift cannot effect things outside it. Things outside it cannot effect things in it.

The exception is Warframe powers. I also believe energy drain aura powers should be cross planar.

Nullifier bubbles should not allow their occupants to be rifted. This means that nullifiers in cata bubbles shouldn't be shooting me either!

2) Items should be able to be picked up regardless of Rift status.

3) Cataclysm should effect consoles and other interactive objects.

4) Limbo's 3 should probably be removed and replaced with something else.

Rift Rework Items:

I think the Rift Mechanic itself is under powered. I'd like to improve upon that a bit. So here are my suggestions for that.

1) Enemies who are in the Rift cannot hear any sounds that originate from outside it. And vise versa.

Yes: this would mean enemies could see not hear Limbo in the Rift.

Enemies who are rifted would be unable to alert other enemies or sound Alarms.

2) The Rift is a strange and dangerous place. Enemies in the Rift have their vision range decreased by 30% but remain alert.

3) I'm on the fence about this idea. But perhaps for every 1s the enemy spends in the rift there is a 10% chance of radiation, knockdown or stagger procs.

Power Rework Items:

1) Banish is about where it needs to be.

However I think there should be a hold-to-charge that when released banishes 2-5 enemies in an area around the banish target.

Also Banish is a pretty weak ability from a 'murder things' standpoint. I'd like to see it moved into the 15 power per-cast/enemy range.

2) This being a separate button is critical for Limbo's play style. No changes.

3) Replace, make Rift Surge his Passive. I have two suggestions below. The first is my new favorite. I saw someone else talking about a Blink power for Limbo and liked it a lot. If ya'll remember Limbo in his quest died when he 'went too far' while trying to cross the Rift. In my mind he was using the Rift in much the same way everyone else uses Void Travel: FTL.

Shift Step: Limbo slips across the Rift [some] meters towards his target point. Any enemies at the arrival location are Banished within 1/2/3/4 meters. Cost: 25 Energy. (note this does not Banish Limbo. He only crosses through the Rift. So he stays in whatever state he was in.

Imagine slipping around the battlefield banishing groups of enemies, and slaughtering them while they're downed. Throw up a cataclysm and need to get out of dodge? Teleport away and start firing at what is in it from far off.

Labyrinth: Limbo creates a gateway to the Rift. Enemies that pass through it are banished for 3x his Banish duration. Each 1x duration they have a 10% chance of taking 800 Rift damage OR exiting the Rift unexpectedly as they stumble through a crack in reality. Shots fired through the gateway are placed in the opposite state. (rifted shots become unrifted. Etc)

I used to like this idea until Shift Step became a thing in my head. But I'm just putting it out there.

4) Cataclysm needs three big changes:

Enemies cannot leave Cataclysm.

Enemies cannot enter Cataclysm.

Enemies that are banished by Cataclysm suffer the same effects as Banish. (knockdown etc.)

5) Rift Surge becomes Limbo's passive. Limbo gets a moderate Over-shield and Armor Buff while in the Rift on top of a damage buff. Effected by power strength.

In my mind this sets Limbo up to be much better than he was while changing very little of his actual basics.

I love your ideas. Very practical, simple, and very effective.

I also have a thread going on Limbo, and the amount of awesome ideas is so encouraging...!

DE can't ignore our plight forever.

#GiveLimboSomeLove

Clonmac · April 8, 2016

5 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

It's 3 times at base, and it's self only. It's weaker than pretty much any other damage buff in the game, including Mirage's Eclipse (because Eclipse can be a damage reduction skill too, and amplifies Hall of Mirrors, making it way more effective. Oh, and it costs half the energy and works outside of the Rift) and debatably Rhino's Roar (50% x 4 is 200%, but even then, Roar effects all companions and allies as well, and lasts longer... but it costs 50% more... but again it works outside the Rift). If you still feel like it's too strong, that's why I was talking about making the passive like 100-150% possibly instead of the full 200%.

---------------------------------------

Those numbers I put up are in-line with other frames for using that amount of energy. Actually, those numbers are in line with TERRIBLY WEAK frames using that amount of energy, unless it's finisher damage. 700 damage is completely pathetic. 400 energy is a LOT of energy, and just about any other frame spamming their damage ability and using 400 energy, even with no efficiency or other mods, will likely do 5,000-20,000 damage. Any of the actual ability-damage oriented frames would do more like 60-80k with that amount of energy. Banshee's Sonic Blast is the only non-ult that actually deals damage (apart from hydroid's undertow.... but that's not really a damage oriented ability) on the order of hundreds. Most damaging abilities (apart from insane levels of CC ones like Pull) found on a 1 (button) will do 500 damage, and the pure damage ones do more like 900 damage. 400 energy is 16 casts of that, meaning 8-15k, so this is perfectly in line. (And 1 abilities usually are some of the least efficient for dealing damage)

I feel it is better than Mirage's Eclipse. Mirage's Eclipse is not a guaranteed static 200% bonus. That's its maximum potential dependant upon the lighting conditions you're in. Granted, most areas in the game are lit decently enough, saying Limbo's damage bonus is restricted by the Rift while not acknowledging Eclipse's restrictions is very biased. Further more, you mention that it is a damage reduction skill as well, but if it is a damage reduction skill, then it is not being a damage amplification skill. It is either/or, not both and to utilize both options greatly restricts Mirage's movement to take advantage, whereas Limbo has complete freedom of movement (meaning he can always guarantee to have his damage bonus for any ground finisher whereever the enemy is). It also doesn't apply to Hall of Mirrors. I don't know how you can say it is weaker than any damage buff in the game when it is one of the best guaranteed self-targeting damage buffs in the game, especially when you consider Rift Torrent. I also feel that decreasing its damage bonus just to make it a passive would be a nerf (although I admit it is hard to judge that without consideration of what would replace it as the third ability). I would much rather cast an ability to gain an extra 100%+ damage (the difference between the proposed passive vs the active ability) than not having to worry about casting anything at all.

As far as the damage numbers we were talking about (in the last quoted paragraph above), you also have to consider things from a DPS perspective. In order for any other ability to reach those numbers you are talking about, they'd need to be cast about 16 times or more (for a 25 energy cost ability). For example, Ember, who is an extremely offensive oriented frame, her fireball deals 400 base damage at a cost of 25 energy. To reach 10,000 damage, you'd need to cast that 25 times and it would cost 625 energy. Or, at a cost of 400 energy, you'd need to cast it 16 times and it would only deal 6400 damage. And that is for a single target ability. For Excaliber, looking at a similar radial AoE ability with Radial Javelin, if you cast it 5 times for 375 energy, it would deal 5000 damage. Frost's Ice Wave ability at a cost of 50 and would deal 700 damage at max level and for 400 energy you'd have to cast it 8 times and it would only deal 5600 damage. Now also consider the DPS side of things, all those abilities in order to reach any of those numbers would have to be cast numerous times. How long would it take to cast Fireball 16 times? How long would it take you to cast Radial Javelin 5 times? How long would it take to cast Ice Wave 8 times? Your numbers are way off and if you want to make claims like you have, you're going to have to back it up with the math. Having an instant nuke deal 10,000 damage is insane for a non-ult ability (and even for an ult ability!). So yes, it would need to deal damage on an order of magnitude of hundreds for a non-ult ability.

That being said, I possibly like the idea better about letting it charge on a percentage basis to put a cap on it. That way it is just a straight 1 energy for 1 percentage point up to 100%. Then at 100% let it deal 1000 damage and have it scale based on that.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Clonmac

Fifield · April 8, 2016

4 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Why hook enemies into the cataclysm when you can just banish them and shoot them from cataclysm anyways?

3 reasons:

1. It's cooler.
2. It's more intuitive for team-mates.
3. Limbo is more oriented towards melee, because Cataclysm encourages short-range combat.

5 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

I don't really think a pure damage-dealing skill fits with limbo's theme, and he amplifies his weapons instead, but maybe other limbos would like a damage skill?

I was thinking more about soloing, where you're in Rift, surrounded by enemies and you can't attack each other -- but maybe 'Riftwalk' is going off soon. Currently, if you Banish them, you actually get damaged by the nuke.

In terms of this Rift-tunnel idea, rather than leaving the tunnel, you might just want to nuke (or hook).

It's just an idea because being in an ending Riftwalk can tend to leave Limbo in an awkward situation.

Another possibility would be a short Invisibility skill, but that smacks of cheese rather than skillful Limbo play.

Vitalis_Inamorta · April 8, 2016

On 4/8/2016 at 3:15 AM, Clonmac said:

I feel it is better than Mirage's Eclipse. Mirage's Eclipse is not a guaranteed static 200% bonus...

Spoiler

That's its maximum potential dependant upon the lighting conditions you're in. Granted, most areas in the game are lit decently enough, saying Limbo's damage bonus is restricted by the Rift while not acknowledging Eclipse's restrictions is very biased. Further more, you mention that it is a damage reduction skill as well, but if it is a damage reduction skill, then it is not being a damage amplification skill. It is either/or, not both and to utilize both options greatly restricts Mirage's movement to take advantage, whereas Limbo has complete freedom of movement (meaning he can always guarantee to have his damage bonus for any ground finisher whereever the enemy is). It also doesn't apply to Hall of Mirrors. I don't know how you can say it is weaker than any damage buff in the game when it is one of the best guaranteed self-targeting damage buffs in the game, especially when you consider Rift Torrent. I also feel that decreasing its damage bonus just to make it a passive would be a nerf (although I admit it is hard to judge that without consideration of what would replace it as the third ability). I would much rather cast an ability to gain an extra 100%+ damage (the difference between the proposed passive vs the active ability) than not having to worry about casting anything at all.

It's a binary, and if Mirage doesn't have the full 200% bonus, she has 0% and 75%-95% damage reduction to herself from all sources...

Spoiler

Outside of the Rift, Limbo gets nothing. And yes, it's either/or. It applies to Mirage's weapons... but I guess HoM doesn't work off of those buffed values, although it ought to :| so you have a point there. Either way, it still costs less and provides SOME benefit at all times, (debatably a 75% damage reduction is of equal benefit to a +3x damage amplification) which is more than Rift Surge can say. If you say it's one of the strongest, you're excluding damage buffs that affect allies as well, which is unfair outside of soloing. Rhino's Roar affects allies, and is thereby about on the same level (especially since it applies both in and out of the Rift). Banshee's Sonar is a 5x multiplier for all teammates that hit the weak spots (not hard), so stronger, not even counting resonance. Nova's Prime is 2x for all sources of damage to enemies, including allies and environment, and is also a massive CC, so straight better.

My words in bold below:

Quote

As far as the damage numbers we were talking about (in the last quoted paragraph above), you also have to consider things from a DPS perspective...

Spoiler

In order for any other ability to reach those numbers you are talking about, they'd need to be cast about 16 times or more (for a 25 energy cost ability). For example, Ember, who is an extremely offensive oriented frame, her fireball deals 400 base damage at a cost of 25 energy. 400 base + 150 AoE with proc chance. To reach 10,000 damage, you'd need to cast that 25 times and it would cost 625 energy. 18 times, and it takes advantage of Accelerant. Or, at a cost of 400 energy, you'd need to cast it 16 times and it would only deal 6400 damage. And that is for a single target ability. The AoE has quite excellent range actually 5m. For Excaliber, looking at a similar radial AoE ability with Radial Javelin, if you cast it 5 times for 375 energy, it would deal 5000 damage. Radial Javelin used to take advantage of the melee combo counter. Unsure if it still does, but it's now one of the weakest radial abilities in both cast time and recovery, as well as damage and scaling, due to being nerfed because of Draco/etc multiple times. Frost's Ice Wave ability at a cost of 50 and would deal 700 damage at max level and for 400 energy you'd have to cast it 8 times and it would only deal 5600 damage. It's also 100% chance cold proc (very good CC) and covers a massive area. Now also consider the DPS side of things, all those abilities in order to reach any of those numbers would have to be cast numerous times. Most of those abilities scale off of other things you aren't mentioning, and all of those are on-demand. How long would it take to cast Fireball 16 times? Ember can cast fireball very, very fast and it's a free action essentially for her. 16 casts in about 5 seconds or less from my time playing her (usually your time is just about up if you start having to spam fireballs like that though). How long would it take you to cast Radial Javelin 5 times? Its cast times got nerfed hard, and it also deals a stun to surviving targets. How long would it take to cast Ice Wave 8 times? A few seconds. Your numbers are way off and if you want to make claims like you have, you're going to have to back it up with the math. Having an instant nuke deal 10,000 damage is insane for a non-ult ability (and even for an ult ability!). So yes, it would need to deal damage on an order of magnitude of hundreds for a non-ult ability.

It would be insane, if you could recast in a handful of seconds...

Spoiler

but outside of having a Trinity with massive power strength spamming EVs all over you, you can't. It would probably be a few minutes in most situations. I still dislike the radial damage contingency ability in its entirety, to be honest, but it has no CC going for it, and it isn't amplified by anything else Limbo can do, so you can't compare it to abilities that do CC or get amped in other ways, because obviously they trade off some damage.

Oberon's Hallowed ground does 4k damage over time for a single cast, and also provides allies with armor buffs and status immunity. Ember also has WoF that deals from 1,200 to 2,000 per second in a continuous blast of about 3m radius, and has Accelerant. Ash's Shuriken does 500 base to two targets and 100% bleed proc for a total of 1750 damage over 6 seconds, and BladeStorm is 2,000 finisher with 100% bleed for a total 6,900 over 6 seconds. Atlas can spam landslide for increasing damage and decreasing cost, and it does a 1.5m AoE, and upward of 80k damage for 400 energy isn't exaggerating. Granted it takes some time to do that, but you're invulnerable as well. Mag And Saryn can do potentially infinite damage for 25-50 energy.

Finally, for a comparable charged skill, Inaros does 3000 damage over time to a potentially unlimited number of enemies, strong cc, and heals allies within 15m of an effected enemy for the same amount, all for 25 energy and an amount of health that you will regain many, many times over within the healing AoE. Comparing only to weak abilities or abilities that trade for CC is not fair, and before you point out that most of the good damage abilities are DoT, I have to point out that this ability is too, but where most abilities are backloaded DoT, this one takes a long time to charge up, and so is basically backloaded DoT.

Quote

That being said, I possibly like the idea better about letting it charge on a percentage basis to put a cap on it. That way it is just a straight 1 energy for 1 percentage point up to 100%. Then at 100% let it deal 1000 damage and have it scale based on that.

I'm okay with 1000 for 100 energy, but only if it takes efficiency into effect... and auto-charges from excess energy Limbo receives/generates. Any sort of "stand still and charge it" like Inaros has would be suicidal and time wasting on Limbo. This would definitely lock it into being a very low-tier damaging ability though.

Keep the ideas coming!

More of my words in bold below:

On 4/8/2016 at 3:59 AM, Fifield said:

3 reasons:1. It's cooler....

Spoiler

Okay? But it doesn't really fit his theme? More like Hydroid's?
2. It's more intuitive for team-mates. Seeing an enemy burning with the same color fire as the rift is pretty intuitive. It's still functionally identical to Banish, except in certain situations with pits where it would be more like pull (instakill).
3. Limbo is more oriented towards melee, because Cataclysm encourages short-range combat.

Not really. He can cast banish or use cataclysm at range. He CAN be set up to be melee focused with a small cataclysm and a Reach'd long weapon, but it's not required.

I was thinking more about soloing, where you're in Rift, surrounded by enemies and you can't attack each other -- but maybe 'Riftwalk' is going off soon. Currently, if you Banish them, you actually get damaged by the nuke.

Kind of makes sense, but does he really need it? He can just relocate, or jump into the air and recast during "flight".

It's just an idea because being in an ending Riftwalk can tend to leave Limbo in an awkward situation.

Only if he isn't paying attention to the timer, or he gets trapped somehow. All other frames die in that situation too. It's also not going to do anything about the level of enemies that are actually truly dangerous.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Vitalis_Inamorta
Tidying

Fifield · April 9, 2016

2 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

But it doesn't really fit his theme?

What theme? Master of the Rift = meaningless but fits as well as his current skills. Magician? Only magic-y thing about him is his default hat.

2 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Seeing an enemy burning with the same color fire as the rift is pretty intuitive.

A lot of players, possibly most don't know what the Rift is. And Banished people don't really look like Cataclysm anyway.

This would be less of a problem if he's used a lot - players would learn eventually.

2 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

He CAN be set up to be melee focused with a small cataclysm and a Reach'd long weapon, but it's not required.

Didn't say it was, just said he's mostly oriented around close-range combat.

2 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Kind of makes sense, but does he really need it? He can just relocate

Doesn't 'need' anything else either but we're talking about making him more viable and ideally more fun to play. Relocating is rarely possible because enemies will just follow you.

2 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

or jump into the air and recast during "flight".

Didn't know he could do that. Quite unintuitive, especially since IRL you'd get shot in mid-air.

2 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Only if he isn't paying attention to the timer, or he gets trapped somehow.

Quite easy to get trapped. You can only get away if there's an air vent they can't follow you through or a chasm they can't cross -- and that's if you can avoid bulletjumping into them.

2 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

All other frames die in that situation too.

But this is part of Limbo's uniqueness -- his invulnerability to even level 300 enemies 98% of the time.

CortezHextus · April 9, 2016

On 4/8/2016 at 4:20 AM, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

@ CortezHextus:

Consensus Items: Agreed, except for energy drain auras. If they penetrate, why shouldn't toxic? Or cold? Etc. They should probably not enter the rift, to be consistent.

Rift Rework Items: I'm kind of down with the deaf enemies, but if it becomes a thing, then all allied frames should get a dampened-out effect like Loki while Invis, otherwise makes no sense.

I don't really see any reason for reduced visibility range, and it wouldn't really help his stealth at all, seeing as the damage from being brought into the rift would at least put them on cautious mode, thus completely countering the 30% range by multiplying the range they see while un-alerted. On full alert, this would potentially let you shoot enemies that were 25m away or so with no retaliation, but it's kind of overpowered if you're using it that way?

The random proc chance fits thematically, but it really wouldn't help Limbo noticeably in most situations. The most notable thing it would do is that radiation procs automatically transfer to ancient/corrupted healers if their aura overlaps the mob that got hit by the proc, so this would make him a noticeable amount better vs infested I guess? Not really sure where I stand on this one. Kind of don't like it from a gameplay stand-point, but a lot of people might.

I think Limbo's energy generation inside the rift should scale with power strength. This would let him be a lot more useful for it, as well as potentially replacing Trinity in some energy generation scenarios (no one would complain about that, methinks, and I'm basically a Trinity main...)

Power Rework Items:

Banish... it's pretty powerful. It knocks enemies down, opening them for ground finishers, and otherwise leaving them unable to retaliate for a couple of seconds. A held-charge type use would pretty much make it do the same as Cataclysm, but in a smaller area, so while interesting, I don't know if it's really a needed thing. Limbo regens energy inside the rift at a rate of 2/second, so it's kind of already more efficient than most 1s, considering he's probably already in the rift.

Whoa, I really like your Shift Step idea for his 3, and it also bridges the gap between Banish and Cataclysm, so that's a bonus. Adding to the potential list :3. Labyrinth seems to be pretty much the same thing as Portal, but it might do random damage or rift exits, which make it kind of unpredictable, and in the rift exit case, hurt it if Limbo was using it to block a door or something. 3x duration could also be really... long? Really really long. I don't see why it needs to be that long.

For Cataclysm, the knockdown is possible, I'll make sure it's a thought in the OP. Enemies not being able to enter or exit though? That's..... probably way overpowered for defense. Especially if you fix it so that nullifiers don't cheat. Oh, yeah, it would also break the Cataclysmic Continuum mod almost completely. I don't see any really good reason it needs to be that way either. Care to share?

Overshield/armor for Limbo in the rift are thematic, but if every way for enemies to enter the rift knocks them down anyways, why does he need this? Kind of seems like a tacked on thing, that wouldn't be very meaningful unless it was strong enough to be kind of power-creepy. Maybe give him something similar to the Health Conversion mod, in that while being in the rift he automatically builds up say 1-2 charges of damage resistance over time, and the top stack dissipates 3 seconds after taking damage? It would protect him from oneshots by enemies that cheated and didn't get knocked down upon entry (rare with Banish, but it does happens some times), but not much else, so a nice bonus to skillful use. TBH any of these options seem kind of un-necessary compared to other changes though.

1) In regards to energy drain being cross planar the way I see it is energy is weird Void Magics and the Rift plane is the space between the Void and the Material plane. Which is why Warframe powers can cross planes. And if Warframe POWERS can cross planes, then so too can things that harm their energies. to me this is a completely separate thing from other physical auras.

2) In case I didn't describe it well I don't intend for enemies to be deafened in the Rift. I mean for enemies in the Rift to be deaf to sounds outside of it. And sounds inside the rift to be silent to those outside of it. Essentially sound would be treated the same way physical interaction is. So to me no obvious audio queues are necessary.

3) In regards to less vision range it wasn't intended to be for stealth. it was intended to make the Rift a more advantageous place for Limbo and allies. 25m is actually not that short in a game like Warframe when you're mostly fighting your way through halls and corridors. My intent was to make it harder for enemies to regularly attack Limbo. Providing better advantages for spending time in the rift and encouraging greedy cataclysms.

My whole idea with random procs, reduced vision range, etc was making the Rift more advantageous. Right now all you get for being in the Rift is passive energy gain and (funny enough) slightly poor-er visibility. Aside from the conditional invincibility, i mean. But fighting in the Rift feels like fighting outside it and to me that is a failure in design.

I'm nervous about power strength improving energy gain...but it could be awesome. So count me on the fence.

4) I get what you mean about banish. But to me the problem is i sometimes want to banish a small group of enemies at the same time; but I don't want to throw down a bubble as big as cataclysm. Cataclysm is not a group banish. It is a battlefield alteration. I might be fine banishing 5 enemies. But throwing up a bubble on many maps will get me killed. So to me the added utility is better control over my domain, and who gets to play in it with me <- which is what Limbo is truly about.

5) Yea, I'm with you on Labyrinth I'm just spit-balling. I'm glad you like Shift Step. To me it would be a hugely awesome addition to his kit.

6) I was thinking about cataclysm which was in many senses other people's ideas I just posted here because I liked them. I think you're very right though. Keeping things from entering cataclysm would be very broken, making defense missions trivial. However keeping things INSIDE cataclysm wouldn't be so bad. Things could enter not exit.

My thoughts for this are; Limbo is in many senses about divide and conquer. He is also about terrain manipulation, in an abstract kind of way. I think it would be nice to control enemies a bit more directly and get a little more of a 'shooting fish in a barrel' aspect out of cataclysm.

7) The reason I think oversheilds and armor increases for limbo would be good are increased durability. But count me in for a kind of damage resistance buff that falls off during hits. I like it.

Basically my whole thought about Limbo consists of this:

The Rift is too weak as a mechanic. It needs passive buffs that make fighting inside of it advantageous to the party and especially to Limbo who is its master.

so in my mind I'm trying to find mechanics that are not too powerful but fundamentally improve the Tenno's ability to win a fight within the Rift. This is ultimately what makes everyone hate working with Limbo. Being in the Rift is zero benefits and all drawbacks in many cases. At the same time as I say buffs, I really don't love the idea of just raw numbers buffs. I want something that feels thematically interesting.

Edited April 9, 2016 by CortezHextus

Arcira · April 10, 2016

I think abilities should play more around his rift mechanics.

passive: gain 10 rift-stacks when entering or leaving and 1 stack/ sec while inside rift-status.

1) Banish (singletarget/selfcast/utility) into rift briefly tap for skillshoot hold for ~1sec for selfcast. If the target is already in rift status it will be released. Entering an rift area will reverse the effect, means the target will be vulnerable to damage outside the bubble but not inside.

2) Rift walk (aoe/selfcast/mobility) teleport to the targeted location when in rift status removes rift-status from you and banishes enemies around you. You can perform Rift walk between rift-areas without banish.

3) Cataclysm (aoe/utility) same base effect but you can cast up to x bubbles (similar to frost) which can overlap. A point that is influenced by 2 bubbles negate the effect so you can create specific regions of rift and non-rift areas.

4) Surge (aoe/damage) inflicts x damage to enemies in an area around you and consumes all rift-stacks inflicting damage to enemies respectively heal allies and yourself for 1% of max energy per stack. Target get the rift status targets already in rift status will be released.

- the idea is to reward clever rift management with huge amount of damage and survivability.

- imune to energy drain and nullifier bubble when already in rift-status. They are still immune to rift-status if entering a rift-area with active bubble. Special enemies like stalker can banish them self in order to deal damge to you and own an unbanish attack you can dodge.

- you can not pick up items which are in a different "state" preventing always immortal mode without disadvantage. However you can pick up items inside cataclysm (rift area) as long as you are in the same "state"

- enemies ignore you if they can't damage you but can still set of alarms

- performing any kind of parkour breaks rift status if not inside a rift-area

- enemies try to enter rift-areas if they want to attack a specific target and try to leave the rift-area if the target is in a different "state" ( for example if you are banished inside the rift-area you can only be damaged from outside this area)

May sound a little bit confusing (not sure) but it's a quite simple system with huge tactical potential when you think about it.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Arcira

Vitalis_Inamorta · April 10, 2016

On 4/9/2016 at 2:08 PM, Fifield said:

Didn't say it was, just said he's mostly oriented around close-range combat...

Spoiler

Doesn't 'need' anything else either but we're talking about making him more viable and ideally more fun to play. Relocating is rarely possible because enemies will just follow you.

Didn't know he could do that. Quite unintuitive, especially since IRL you'd get shot in mid-air.

Quite easy to get trapped. You can only get away if there's an air vent they can't follow you through or a chasm they can't cross -- and that's if you can avoid bulletjumping into them.

But this is part of Limbo's uniqueness -- his invulnerability to even level 300 enemies 98% of the time.

He's not really oriented around close ranged combat outside of a single ability, Cataclysm, because of its non-gigantic unmodded radius...

Spoiler

Even that ability is just as suited to explosives as it is melee and close ranged combat and it can very easily be modded to be much larger than a comfortable close range size, so no, he isn't oriented around close range combat.

Relocating is almost always possible. People virtually always die when they slow down or stand on the ground. Even a squish frame completely ditching their defensive and CC abilities becomes all but impossible for enemies to hit when parkouring. Beyond that, enemy spawn mechanics and movement speed. They literally spawn in the rooms next to yours, depending on your proximity to the door, so if you rapidly move two cells over it will be all but empty unless an ally has been there making enemies spawn in. The vast majority of enemies are also many, many times slower than warframe parkour. Even the fast ones like stalker, manics, and scrambuses literally go like 1/3-1/2 the speed of a parkouring warframe at best. Relocating is easy and very possible in all circumstances that don't involve you being literally trapped in a small dead end room by the spammed flames of multiple napalms or some similar massive AoE one-shot spam.

I don't know if he can cast during aim glide or not, but he can definitely cast while in the air. If people moved that fast in real life, you probably wouldn't even see them go past you most of the time, let alone be able to easily shoot an airborne target in close proximity moving at probably in excess of 60 miles per hour with anything short of an anti aircraft flak emplacement.

As I said before, it's actually quite uncommon to be completely trapped. Enemies literally cannot physically block you with their bodies either, because dragon kick > everything.

On 4/9/2016 at 8:23 AM, CortezHextus said:

1) In regards to energy drain being cross planar the way I see it is energy is weird Void Magics and the Rift plane is the space between the Void and the Material plane. Which is why Warframe powers can cross planes. And if Warframe POWERS can cross planes, then so too can things that harm their energies. to me this is a completely separate thing from other physical auras.

Logical. I agree.

Quote

2) In case I didn't describe it well I don't intend for enemies to be deafened in the Rift. I mean for enemies in the Rift to be deaf to sounds outside of it. And sounds inside the rift to be silent to those outside of it. Essentially sound would be treated the same way physical interaction is. So to me no obvious audio queues are necessary.

It would still need to dampen sounds coming to players from the other side of the rift, whatever side they are on.

Quote

3) In regards to less vision range it wasn't intended to be for stealth....

Spoiler

it was intended to make the Rift a more advantageous place for Limbo and allies. 25m is actually not that short in a game like Warframe when you're mostly fighting your way through halls and corridors. My intent was to make it harder for enemies to regularly attack Limbo. Providing better advantages for spending time in the rift and encouraging greedy cataclysms.

25m, unfortunately, is a very convenient range for a multitude of defense and mobile defense maps, and would let Limbo set up a cataclysm and then spam explosives into it for days with no consequences.

Quote

My whole idea with random procs, reduced vision range, etc was making the Rift more advantageous. Right now all you get for being in the Rift is passive energy gain and (funny enough) slightly poor-er visibility. Aside from the conditional invincibility, i mean. But fighting in the Rift feels like fighting outside it and to me that is a failure in design.

You could just make it a stagger for 1-2 second every 5 seconds? Especially if they were synchronized this would give limbo some nice breathing room to time his actions during the staggering.

Quote

4) I get what you mean about banish...

Spoiler

But to me the problem is i sometimes want to banish a small group of enemies at the same time; but I don't want to throw down a bubble as big as cataclysm. Cataclysm is not a group banish. It is a battlefield alteration. I might be fine banishing 5 enemies. But throwing up a bubble on many maps will get me killed. So to me the added utility is better control over my domain, and who gets to play in it with me <- which is what Limbo is truly about.

Shift Step does the same thing, but if it doesn't become the third ability you have a salient point.

Quote

6) I was thinking about cataclysm...

Spoiler

which was in many senses other people's ideas I just posted here because I liked them. I think you're very right though. Keeping things from entering cataclysm would be very broken, making defense missions trivial. However keeping things INSIDE cataclysm wouldn't be so bad. Things could enter not exit.

My thoughts for this are; Limbo is in many senses about divide and conquer. He is also about terrain manipulation, in an abstract kind of way. I think it would be nice to control enemies a bit more directly and get a little more of a 'shooting fish in a barrel' aspect out of cataclysm.

I agree.

Quote

so in my mind I'm trying to find mechanics that are not too powerful but fundamentally improve the Tenno's ability to win a fight within the Rift. This is ultimately what makes everyone hate working with Limbo. Being in the Rift is zero benefits and all drawbacks in many cases. At the same time as I say buffs, I really don't love the idea of just raw numbers buffs. I want something that feels thematically interesting.

Yes, most Limbo lovers feel this way...

Spoiler

Either Shadow Step or Portal seem to be very good ways to give him interesting tools. Integrating Rift Walk as a part of Banish (Limbo aims at his feet to banish himself maybe?) would also free up another ability slot, although I forget if you were against that or not, it seems to be kind of a polarizing subject. Any thoughts on what another new skill to go with one of those new 3s would be?

Edited April 19, 2016 by Vitalis_Inamorta
Tidying

Vitalis_Inamorta · April 10, 2016

On 4/10/2016 at 4:50 PM, Arcira said:

I think abilities should play more around his rift mechanics...

Spoiler

passive: gain 10 rift-stacks when entering or leaving and 1 stack/ sec while inside rift-status.

1) Banish (singletarget/selfcast/utility) into rift briefly tap for skillshoot hold for ~1sec for selfcast. If the target is already in rift status it will be released. Entering an rift area will reverse the effect, means the target will be vulnerable to damage outside the bubble but not inside.

Okay, it looks like you're saying that the boundary of Cataclysm would act like the Portal ability in the OP...

Spoiler

so if something/someone were already Banished and walked into cataclysm they would be in the real world within the radius of the ability. It's kind of interesting for enemy manipulation, but it would really, really, really mess with Limbo on the transitions, severely reducing his Quality of Life, unless some kind of simple mechanic were created where allies/Limbo within the bounds of Cataclysm could enter/exit the rift inside cataclysm by rolling. Imagine Being Limbo, self-banished, then casting a Cataclysm on the pod from a little ways away, then jumping in to melee. Suddenly you're in the real world in the cataclysm, and not only can you not melee any enemies inside, but all the bullets that the edges would have phased past you are now ripping mortal wounds in your face. You just died horribly because your abilities worked in a weird way.

Quote

2) Rift walk (aoe/selfcast/mobility) teleport to the targeted location when in rift status removes rift-status from you and banishes enemies around you. You can perform Rift walk between rift-areas without banish.

So, the same as Shift Step, but it only works from within the Rift?

Spoiler

Or would it put you into the rift if you used it while out of the rift? Either way, like your Banish, it would also reduce Limbo's QoL over just coming out on the same side he went in on (unless his self-banish timer was expired and he was riftwalking into/out of cataclysm).

Quote

3) Cataclysm (aoe/utility) same base effect but you can cast up to x bubbles (similar to frost) which can overlap. A point that is influenced by 2 bubbles negate the effect so you can create specific regions of rift and non-rift areas.

I like the Idea, but, like Snow Globe, Limbo would need a way to cancel the Cataclysms one at a time as desired. Perhaps using Banish as a targeted ability on a Cataclysm from the outside would dispel it?

Quote

4) Surge (aoe/damage) inflicts x damage to enemies in an area around you and consumes all rift-stacks inflicting damage to enemies respectively heal allies and yourself for 1% of max energy per stack. Target get the rift status targets already in rift status will be released.

1% of Limbo's max energy capacity? That could be...

Spoiler

very interesting, especially if it scaled with strength, the healing would be quite comparable to Trinity's Blessing if you were using Primed Flow on Limbo. The main problem I see is that it replaces an ability Augment that already exists. The damage though? It wouldn't be amplified by Rift Surge (or w/e the passive were called) and so it would either need very high numbers to match the rest of his kit. It also seems like you want it to rift/de-rift any enemies in the area around Limbo which is interesting, but also pretty much relegates Cataclysm to a purely defensive skill.

I think you tried to pack too many things into one ability, and scaling with a hard-to get mod that nobody else really scales with (and that Limbo doesn't really need for the majority of his builds, TBH) is probably not a good idea. The healing should be separated out back into an Augment. Rift/de-rift is an interesting idea, but wouldn't it be covered just as easily by a Banish that could be fired at your own feet to banish yourself, or be charged to do an AoE banish? On top of that, the damage really wouldn't scale or fit with the rest of his kit, as we've gone over before about PBAoE damage burst abilities on Limbo.

Quote

- the idea...

Spoiler

is to reward clever rift management with huge amount of damage and survivability.

- imune to energy drain and nullifier bubble when already in rift-status. They are still immune to rift-status if entering a rift-area with active bubble. Special enemies like stalker can banish them self in order to deal damge to you and own an unbanish attack you can dodge.

- you can not pick up items which are in a different "state" preventing always immortal mode without disadvantage. However you can pick up items inside cataclysm (rift area) as long as you are in the same "state"

- enemies ignore you if they can't damage you but can still set of alarms

- performing any kind of parkour breaks rift status if not inside a rift-area

- enemies try to enter rift-areas if they want to attack a specific target and try to leave the rift-area if the target is in a different "state" ( for example if you are banished inside the rift-area you can only be damaged from outside this area)

May sound a little bit confusing (not sure) but it's a quite simple system with huge tactical potential when you think about it.

I kind of like the Rift Stack mechanic, but you used it in ways that aren't very good for what Limbo already has...

Spoiler

Your rift/de-rift mechanics are super complicated and would almost certainly be a major QoL loss on a frame that already has very bad QoL

Enemies in different phases from you ignoring you WOULD make you safer for a split second when your Self-banish expires, but otherwise it just removes your ability to draw fire from the rest of your team for free, which is probably better for the enemies than for you overall.

Any kind of parkour de-rifts allies? That's terribly limiting, and would be another big QoL decrease. The only reason rolling even breaks it is so that allies can get out easily if they don't want to be Banished.

Pretty sure enemies already do that if they are melee. Giving Ranged enemies an A.I. upgrade would actually make defenses a lot easier in most cases, so I actually like that idea. Better enemy A.I. is pretty much always welcome. I'll add this one to the OP.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Vitalis_Inamorta
Tidying

Arcira · April 10, 2016

1 hour ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Okay, it looks like you're saying that the boundary of Cataclysm would act like the Portal ability in the OP, so if something/someone were already Banished and walked into cataclysm they would be in the real world within the radius of the ability. It's kind of interesting for enemy manipulation, but it would really, really, really mess with Limbo on the transitions, severely reducing his Quality of Life, unless some kind of simple mechanic were created where allies/Limbo within the bounds of Cataclysm could enter/exit the rift inside cataclysm by rolling. Imagine Being Limbo, self-banished, then casting a Cataclysm on the pod from a little ways away, then jumping in to melee. Suddenly you're in the real world in the cataclysm, and not only can you not melee any enemies inside, but all the bullets that the edges would have phased past you are now ripping mortal wounds in your face. You just died horribly because your abilities worked in a weird way.

This is one of the reasons you can swich between rift status "1)" and release "performing parkour".

1 hour ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

So, the same as Shift Step, but it only works from within the Rift? Or would it put you into the rift if you used it while out of the rift? Either way, like your Banish, it would also reduce Limbo's QoL over just coming out on the same side he went in on (unless his self-banish timer was expired and he was riftwalking into/out of cataclysm).

The other thing is I want to give immortality a drawback, because it should be situational not mandatory (for example revive allies or escape from difficult situations). The rift walk can be used as an escape, too. It offers high mobility in your with cataclysm "conquered" area and resaonable mobility in normal environment. You can enter the rift every time if you want to use this ability again. I see It could be a little bit incommodious because of the 1sec selfcast delay.

However an alternative could be switching between rift-status in general or no energy cost when using between rift areas (cataclysm).

1 hour ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

I like the Idea, but, like Snow Globe, Limbo would need a way to cancel the Cataclysms one at a time as desired. Perhaps using Banish as a targeted ability on a Cataclysm from the outside would dispel it?

Sounds good to me. It would be a way to stack limbos passive faster, too.

1 hour ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

1% of Limbo's max energy capacity? That could be... very interesting, especially if it scaled with strength, the healing would be quite comparable to Trinity's Blessing if you were using Primed Flow on Limbo. The main problem I see is that it replaces an ability Augment that already exists. The damage though? It wouldn't be amplified by Rift Surge (or w/e the passive were called) and so it would either need very high numbers to match the rest of his kit. It also seems like you want it to rift/de-rift any enemies in the area around Limbo which is interesting, but also pretty much relegates Cataclysm to a purely defensive skill.

I think you tried to pack too many things into one ability, and scaling with a hard-to get mod that nobody else really scales with (and that Limbo doesn't really need for the majority of his builds, TBH) is probably not a good idea. The healing should be separated out back into an Augment. Rift/de-rift is an interesting idea, but wouldn't it be covered just as easily by a Banish that could be fired at your own feet to banish yourself, or be charged to do an AoE banish? On top of that, the damage really wouldn't scale or fit with the rest of his kit, as we've gone over before about PBAoE damage burst abilities on Limbo.

I think you are rigth, there are a lot of different effects here. In fact I had a lot of ideas how his ultimate should work. I thougth about an effect which collapses the rift areas and inflict damage to enemies within.

It might be a little bit offtopic but I think it would be a good idea if DE converts augments into actual "alternative skills". This way you could choose beween different effects and build your own playstile.

1 hour ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

I kind of like the Rift Stack mechanic, but you used it in ways that aren't very good for what Limbo already has. Your rift/de-rift mechanics are super complicated and would almost certainly be a major QoL loss on a frame that already has very bad QoL

Enemies in different phases from you ignoring you WOULD make you safer for a split second when your Self-banish expires, but otherwise it just removes your ability to draw fire from the rest of your team for free, which is probably better for the enemies than for you overall.

Any kind of parkour de-rifts allies? That's terribly limiting, and would be another big QoL decrease. The only reason rolling even breaks it is so that allies can get out easily if they don't want to be Banished.

Pretty sure enemies already do that if they are melee. Giving Ranged enemies an A.I. upgrade would actually make defenses a lot easier in most cases, so I actually like that idea. Better enemy A.I. is pretty much always welcome. I'll add this one to the OP.

- I wanted to give a limbo the possibility to either build a rift "labyrinth" for defense purposes or set up combos like banish into riftwalk + cataclysm for rewarding aoe burst. Depending on your built both are possible with this mechanic. Remember every time you change the status on an enemie you can stack up the passive no matter how you do it. This allows you to play around and try different things in order to set up your personal rift combo. And that's why I think % damage is a good idea here

- like the last point it is supposed to be an ai improvement. As you said it might have this downside but I think enemies should act a little bit more comprehensible and focus an threats instead of immortal objectives. I wish some other abilities would work different. Like invisibility should not work if you are literally on top of the enemy. I say this because I think abilities like banish/invisibility/hysteria hold back the full potential of other abilities in a warframes kit.

- As mentioned before the banish ability is supposed to be situational. In opposit to the current version you can banish all your members. Therefore it's not meant to be a "always on" but allowing you to save your allies and stack up the passive.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Arcira

Vitalis_Inamorta · April 10, 2016

On 4/10/2016 at 7:16 PM, Arcira said:

This is one of the reasons you can swich between rift status "1)" and release "performing parkour".

Banish has a cast time, and this would make you HAVE to use banish many, many more times than currently...

Spoiler

This is bad even for a well modded Limbo, but it would completely destroy a newer player trying to play Limbo, and it adds nothing beneficial at all. On top of that you have to use either a held or aim/block function (not a very good idea to use aim/block for abilities) to self-cast it.

This locks you on one side of the Cataclysm. You'd literally have to roll out of banish to get into cataclysm, and banish into the rift after coming out of cataclysm. there's no smooth transition, Limbo becomes vulnerable to EVERYONE every single time he makes a transition across the barrier of Cataclysm, allies banished by Limbo have it even worse. It just completely destroys all the strong points of his mechanics for unnecessary complexity and painful banish spamming.

Quote

The other thing is I want to give immortality a drawback, because it should be situational not mandatory...

Spoiler

(for example revive allies or escape from difficult situations). The rift walk can be used as an escape, too. It offers high mobility in your with cataclysm "conquered" area and resaonable mobility in normal environment. You can enter the rift every time if you want to use this ability again. I see It could be a little bit incommodious because of the 1sec selfcast delay.

I already has a drawback...

Spoiler

You can't have any enemies inside or in cataclysm to be immortal, and you don't have any abilities or weapons that affect enemies outside the rift. This is another reason why I'm very against Limbo having a pure damage ability. It would be absolute ultimate cheese damage from invulnerability up to a certain level where it would instantly become utterly useless because it doesn't kill enemies fast enough.

Quote

However an alternative could be switch between rift-status in general or no energy cost when using between rift areas (cataclysm).

Being able to "roll in" while in cataclysm areas would be an absolute necessity, and it's STILL valuable time that is completely wasted
for no reason other than adding drawbacks to a frame who already has far, far too many.

Quote

It might be a little bit offtopic but I think it would be a good idea if DE to converts augments into actual "alternative skills". This way you could choose beween different effects and build your own playstile.

Yeah, kind of off topic. This was an idea way back before augments were even made but DE had started talking about it...

Spoiler

I'm all in favor of bringing back 4 "ability specific" slots that can have mods in them but don't activate until the frame is at least the appropriate level. These slots should use no energy, and scale with the level of the frame, even during the mission. The only real problem with this is that balance is already bad in a lot of ways, and this would just add one more thing to balance.

Quote

- I wanted to give a limbo the possibility to either build a rift "labyrinth" for defense pupose...

Spoiler

or set up combos like banish into riftwalk + cataclysm for rewarding aoe burst. Depending on your built both are possible with this mechanic. Remember every time you change the status on an enemie you can stack up the passive no matter how you do it. This allows you to play around and try different things in order to set up your personal rift combo. And that's why I think % damage is a good idea here

- like the last point it is supposed to be an ai improvement. As you said it might have this downside but I think enemies should act a little bit more comprehensible and focus an threats instead of immortal objectives.

- As mentioned before the banish ability is supposed to be situational. In opposition to the current version you can banish all your members therefore it's not meant to be "always on" but allowing you to save your allies and stack up the passive.

Portal would let Limbo build something like your conception of a labyrinth quite easily.
The A.I. improvement would actually make Limbo somewhat stronger in many situations....

Spoiler

Enemies standing back and spamming shots not only makes them really stupid, but it means that Limbo can't suddenly jump out of the rift and stab someone/grab something and jump back in, because enemies have infinite ammo that they spam in his direction even before he can be hit. That is, if you're talking about Cataclysm, which is clearly a barrier. If you're talking about enemies ignoring allies who are Banished outside of Cataclysm, then no. Most players don't even realize that banish makes things invulnerable (although cataclysm is blatantly obvious and intuitive), so why should enemies instantly realize this?

Banish isn't meant to be very situational currently. Limbo literally can't do anything special whatsoever outside of the Rift Plane, so the only things that create any situationality are the fact that you can't interact with things outside the rift, and can't loot things either (even though both of these are straight stupid inside Cataclysm). Banishing/Cataclysming enemies not only makes it possible for you to hurt them, but for them to hurt you. You need to keep track of your Rift-Zone carefully, because too many enemies will annihilate you. This is the only situationality, and adding situationality (read: weaknesses) for no reason to a frame just isn't a good idea, especially when they are already too situational/weak.

You CAN banish everyone with the current Banish. I don't know what gave you the idea that you couldn't.

You do have a lot of interesting ideas though. Any more innovations you'd like to look more closely at?

Edited April 19, 2016 by Vitalis_Inamorta
Spelling/grammar +Tidying

(PSN)Crimson_Judgment · April 10, 2016

Nice Compilation of ideas hope this gets turned into a Megathread

Now to Toss my Hat into the Ring, (Pun intended)

*Important Note*

Spoiler

At this Time I'm Unsure If i Would Merge Rift Walk With Banish (Via Charge Mechanic) and Replace it With "Dimensional Ace" And/Or Replace Rift Surge With "Dimensional Ace" And Create Another Ability (Perhaps The Mentioned "Rift Portal" Ability)

My Purposed Expansions on "Dimensional Ace" (Dislike the Name a bit but not a big deal)

Spoiler

(Inside Rift) Deals DoT to All Enemies inside the Rift With Damage Based on current charge, And When Exiting The Rift Accumulated Damage is Unleashed all at Once
(General) You can Pre-Charge While Outside the Rift (Current Charge Maintained When Entering the Rift). Grants Multipliers To other Abilities based on Current charge, (Example: Grants Additional (And/Or) Power Range/Strength/Duration To all Abilities Cast
(General) Grants Bonus Rift And Ability Augments Based on set Milestones in Charge (Example: At 50 Energy Charged All Allies Gain Additional X%/X Flat amount of (And/Or) Evasiveness/Armor/Overshields While inside the Rift)
(Synergy) Provides Duration/Range Upkeep To Banish/Rift Walk/Rift Surge/Cataclysm
(Downside/Upkeep) Charge Diminishes slightly over time

My Purposed Banish Changes

Spoiler

No longer Requires a target
Now has an AoE Scaling off Power Range (This AoE Does Not Effect Allies)
Now Spawns One of These at Point of Impact (Refer to These Void Rifts As (Z) for Reference)
When (Z) is Activated (Attacked/Hit) That Rift Belongs To the player That Activated it
After Activation The Player/(Z) Will:

Be Teleported to (Z's) location and Transferred to the Rift plane (Or) (Z) Will Open And Transfer The Player to the Rift Plane Upon Contact
Remember Their Current "State" (Shields/Health/ "Maybe" Energy and Buffs (Energy and Buffs Returning Is Hanging On brink of/Passing the Overpowered Line))

While Inside The Rift (Z) Closes And Must Be Activated Again
If (Z) is Re-Activated The Player/(Z) Will:

Be Teleported to (Z's) location (Or) (Z) Will Open And Transfer them to the Physical Plane Upon Contact
Return The Player to their Previous "State" Transfer them to the Physical Plane
The Aforementioned Effects Will Apply Upon Exiting The Rift Plane

If (Z) is Not Re-Activated the player will exit the Rift as Normal

I Hope this Makes a fraction of sense in the manner in which i presented it

I know It seems Overly Complicated But its a Nice Opt in for The Rift With a Panic Button For Escaping if Need be

My Purposed Cataclysm Changes

Spoiler

Cataclysm Now Draws Enemies Inside like Nyx's Conclave Augment Singularity
Casting Banish on Cataclysm Now Reverses The Aforementioned Change And now Repulses Enemies away from Cataclysm (Perhaps Ragdolling them?)

General QoL Changes

Spoiler

Tone Down The Rift Visual FX For better visibility inside the Rift
All Damage Done to Enemies in the Rift Ignores 50% of Resistances (IPS Fire Etc)
All Allies In the Rift Gain Proc Immunity
Allies/Enemies in the Rift no longer Have Collision With Allies/Enemies Outside the Rift

All Changes/Numbers Are of Course welcome to negotiation,

Anyway Nice Thread OP Could Be Tidied up a bit but +1

Aquasurge · April 10, 2016

i'm a volt main who has never played limbo before and when i saw this thread i thought, wow - this could be an entirely new frame, particularly with the portal ability people are suggesting in this thread.

but here is my two sense of the rift;

changes to rift physics:

physical objects/ tangible matter in the rift vibrates at a different frequency to that of the normal plane and hence we create a rift barrier effect; which separates two to dimensions completely.
in order for tangible matter to cross over/out of the rift - it would need a considerable amount of energy (i.e. void energy or any type of "normal" energy augmented by the void) to do so. However, energy that is focused into a solid and physically tangible state of matter cannot cross over unless limbo creates a "breach" like the rift portal a la la cataclysm, banish and rift walk. this means nullifier bubbles and Venomous and Parasitic/Energy Leech Eximus, can't effect tenno outside of the rift. it also means that any solid object that is connected to the banished object via contact is also transferal between planes.
enemies are heavily distorted upon entering and exiting the rift. side effects of dimensional travel include confusion, nausea, hallucinations and optical distortion.(Warning: may also induce vomiting....)
enemy perception and accuracy become is reduced in the rift i.e. hearing, sight and hence accuracy. enemies may have a chance to temporarily lose track of a tenno's position which may cause them to purposely miss.
enemies in a short radius are temporarily distorted/stunned when objects are transferred from another dimension.

on a side note, why can't banish just banish a console to the rift and hack it there? i totally agree with making banish and rift walk one and the same - it just makes sense.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Aquasurge

Fifield · April 10, 2016

9 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

He's not really oriented around close ranged combat outside of a single ability, Cataclysm

His signature ult...

9 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Even the fast ones like stalker, manics, and scrambuses literally go like 1/3-1/2 the speed of a parkouring warframe at best.

You're grossly exaggerating here, and Limbo tends to get surrounded.

Nevertheless, this is your thread, I'll start my own.

Vitalis_Inamorta · April 10, 2016

On 4/10/2016 at 10:04 PM, (PS4)Crimson_Judgment said:

My Proposed Expansions on "Dimensional Ace" (Dislike the Name a bit but not a big deal)

Reveal hidden contents

(Inside Rift) Deals DoT to All Enemies inside the Rift With Damage Based on current charge, And When Exiting The Rift Accumulated Damage is Unleashed all at Once

(General) You can Pre-Charge While Outside the Rift (Current Charge Maintained When Entering the Rift). Grants Multipliers To other Abilities based on Current charge, (Example: Grants Additional (And/Or) Power Range/Strength/Duration To all Abilities Cast

(General) Grants Bonus Rift And Ability Augments Based on set Milestones in Charge (Example: At 50 Energy Charged All Allies Gain Additional X%/X Flat amount of (And/Or) Evasiveness/Armor/Overshields While inside the Rift)

(Synergy) Provides Duration/Range Upkeep To Banish/Rift Walk/Rift Surge/Cataclysm

(Downside/Upkeep) Charge Diminishes slightly over time

Well, it would definitely need to have a damage cap then...

Spoiler

otherwise it would get to the point where it just instagibs any enemy you get close to inside the rift after building for a bit I'd think.

Wait... it grants bonuses when it's charged but NOT used yet? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Apologies for nazi-ing your "purposed(s) to "proposed(s), but proposed is the correct word :)

Quote

My Proposed Banish Changes

Reveal hidden contents

No longer Requires a target

Now has an AoE Scaling off Power Range (This AoE Does Not Effect Allies)

Now Spawns One of These at Point of Impact (Refer to These Void Rifts As (Z) for Reference)

When (Z) is Activated (Attacked/Hit) That Rift Belongs To the player That Activated it

After Activation The Player/(Z) Will:

Be Teleported to (Z's) location and Transferred to the Rift plane (Or) (Z) Will Open And Transfer The Player to the Rift Plane Upon Contact

Remember Their Current "State" (Shields/Health/ "Maybe" Energy and Buffs (Energy and Buffs Returning Is Hanging On brink of/Passing the Overpowered Line))

While Inside The Rift (Z) Closes And Must Be Activated Again

If (Z) is Re-Activated The Player/(Z) Will:

Be Teleported to (Z's) location (Or) (Z) Will Open And Transfer them to the Physical Plane Upon Contact

Return The Player to their Previous "State" Transfer them to the Physical Plane

The Aforementioned Effects Will Apply Upon Exiting The Rift Plane

If (Z) is Not Re-Activated the player will exit the Rift as Normal

I Hope this Makes a fraction of sense in the manner in which i presented it

I know It seems Overly Complicated But its a Nice Opt in for The Rift With a Panic Button For Escaping if Need be

Energy/buffs returning only makes sense (and can't be massively abused...

Spoiler

I think) if they are stripped when they are memorized. If I understand correctly, you shoot/melee it, and you get insta-teleported to its location and cross into/out of the rift. I also assume the the AoE for enemies only applies right when you cast it. Is there a limit to how many can be cast at once to keep it from being a troll tool? I'll see about adding suggestions once we get the details worked out :3 I like the idea a lot TBH.

Quote

My Proposed Cataclysm Changes

Reveal hidden contents

Cataclysm Now Draws Enemies Inside like Nyx's Conclave Augment Singularity

Casting Banish on Cataclysm Now Reverses The Aforementioned Change And now Repulses Enemies away from Cataclysm (Perhaps Ragdolling them?)

No problems with pulling enemies in, but shifting to push enemies out?...

Spoiler

This would bar any ability to multi-cast/manage cataclysms like Frost with Snow Globe, it would also probably be pretty overpowered if enemies inside nullifier bubbles phased right past the rift instead of being pulled inside, because it would block absolutely everything from entering the cataclysm for the duration.

Quote

General QoL Changes

Reveal hidden contents

Tone Down The Rift Visual FX For better visibility inside the Rift

All Damage Done to Enemies in the Rift Ignores 50% of Resistances (IPS Fire Etc)

All Allies In the Rift Gain Proc Immunity

Allies/Enemies in the Rift no longer Have Collision With Allies/Enemies Outside the Rift

Toned down cata visual effects, I agree completely...

Spoiler

Reduced resists and proc immunity are probably putting too many things on one frame, can't let limbo do literally everything in the game. No collision with allies/enemies on the other side of the rift should have been a thing from the get-go, I'm adding it to OP. Good point about tidying up, I'll see what I can do.

On 4/10/2016 at 1:24 AM, Aquasurge said:

but here is my two cents on the rift;

changes to rift physics:

Spoiler

physical objects/ tangible matter in the rift vibrates at a different frequency to that of the normal plane and hence we create a rift barrier effect; which separates two to dimensions completely.

in order for tangible matter to cross over/out of the rift - it would need a considerable amount of energy (i.e. void energy or any type of "normal" energy augmented by the void) to do so. However, energy that is focused into a solid and physically tangible state of matter cannot cross over unless limbo creates a "breach" like the rift portal a la la cataclysm, banish and rift walk. this means nullifier bubbles and Venomous and Parasitic/Energy Leech Eximus, can't effect tenno outside of the rift. it also means that any solid object that is connected to the banished object via contact is also transferal between planes.

enemies are heavily distorted upon entering and exiting the rift. side effects of dimensional travel include confusion, nausea, hallucinations and optical distortion.(Warning: may also induce vomiting....)

enemy perception and accuracy become is reduced in the rift i.e. hearing, sight and hence accuracy. enemies may have a chance to temporarily lose track of a tenno's position which may cause them to purposely miss.

enemies in a short radius are temporarily distorted/stunned when objects are transferred from another dimension.

on a side note, why can't banish just banish a console to the rift and hack it there? i totally agree with making banish and rift walk one and the same - it just makes sense.

Seems to be all the things rift already does, except maybe some different CC upon enemy entry, and CC upon anything coming in/ out nearby. The CC for nearby transitions is potentially very op without a cooldown of 6-10 seconds.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Vitalis_Inamorta
Tidying

CortezHextus · April 10, 2016

18 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

25m, unfortunately, is a very convenient range for a multitude of defense and mobile defense maps, and would let Limbo set up a cataclysm and then spam explosives into it for days with no consequences

Actually I think I just thought of a better way to approach it while maintaining the intended balance. Limbo is tricky because it is surprisingly easy to make him an unstoppable killing machine. Reduce enemy accuracy within the Rift. I don't have a good number for how much. But a relatively moderate amount would be ideal. It should be enough to put the advantage in your hands while not eliminating threat. A simple flat reduction of enemy accuracy would improve Tenno lifespan in the rift and firmly put the advantage in their favor. We could fluff it as any number of reasons; weird physics, strange invisible objects, simply harder to see, whatever.

Quote

You could just make it a stagger for 1-2 second every 5 seconds? Especially if they were synchronized this would give limbo some nice breathing room to time his actions during the staggering.

I'm very open to this idea as a passive effect of the Rift. I did suggest it once upon a time in another thread but the concern was raised that it throws off the flow of easy headshots. To me I think the two things that are desperately needed in the Rift as a passive mechanic is some fundamental CC and thematic damage reduction. Being there should be better than not being there. So count me as a thumbs up.

Quote

Shift Step does the same thing, but if it doesn't become the third ability you have a salient point.

My only concern with that is that I cannot banish multiple targets at range in this case. I HAVE to get close and that makes Limbo much more of a melee frame than he necessarily needs to be. Shift Step has utility for melee, for sure, but it also has utility in other ways. The reason I suggested he does himself not get rifted with Shift Step was 1 part QOL and one part inverse invulnerability. Sometimes instead of putting myself in the rift I put enemies in the rift to keep them away. Shift step would allow me to jump into a group of enemies and give them the finger before running off. But if I want to AOE snipe a group of enemies with a tonkor or whatever else, right now, I need to queue up a bunch of banishes one at a time. (the recast time seems to feature some kind of delay). So to me Hold-to-multi-banish is good even with Shift Step.

Quote

Either Shadow Step or Portal seem to be very good ways to give him interesting tools. Integrating Rift Walk as a part of Banish (Limbo aims at his feet to banish himself maybe?) would also free up another ability slot, although I forget if you were against that or not, it seems to be kind of a polarizing subject. Any thoughts on what another new skill to go with one of those new 3s would be?

I am pretty firmly against ditching his 2 and merging it with 1. I need seemless control of my position in the Rift. That said...Since we're talking about hold-to-alt powers...What if Portal was his Hold-to-Alt for 2? It very much so fits the theme of what his 2 does and is.

Edited April 10, 2016 by CortezHextus

(PSN)Crimson_Judgment · April 10, 2016

7 hours ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Well, it would definitely need to have a damage cap then...

Reveal hidden contents

otherwise it would get to the point where it just instagibs any enemy you get close to inside the rift after building for a bit I'd think.

Wait... it grants bonuses when it's charged but NOT used yet? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Apologies for nazi-ing your "purposed"s to "proposed"s, but proposed is the correct word :)

I Agree Have it Scale off Power Strength and I'm all for it

Maybe Add The ability to Consume X% of Charge for the Current Rift Surge effect for X duration

If that would Be too much then maybe scrap the Milestone Idea in Favor of this so he maintains is Damage in the Rift



Energy/buffs returning only makes sense (and can't be massively abused...

Reveal hidden contents

I think) if they are stripped when they are memorized. If I understand correctly, you shoot/melee it, and you get insta-teleported to its location and cross into/out of the rift. I also assume the the AoE for enemies only applies right when you cast it. Is there a limit to how many can be cast at once to keep it from being a troll tool? I'll see about adding suggestions once we get the details worked out :3 I like the idea a lot TBH.

AoE is On Initial Cast Only

Not sure about a Cast Limit 4 seems Right if it must be there but the Portal Would Only work for (And maybe only visible to) whoever activated it

While i like the Teleporting idea better i think it would be best to Activate + Contact to Trigger to avoid Accidental Teleportation and Rift entry



No problems with pulling enemies in, but shifting to push enemies out?...

Reveal hidden contents

This would bar any ability to multi-cast/manage cataclysms like Frost with Snow Globe, it would also probably be pretty overpowered if enemies inside nullifier bubbles phased right past the rift instead of being pulled inside, because it would block absolutely everything from entering the cataclysm for the duration.

Maybe Burst Cataclysm And Lightly Push and Knockdown Enemies inside With Banish?



Toned down cata visual effects, I agree completely...

Reveal hidden contents

Reduced resists and proc immunity are probably putting too many things on one frame, can't let limbo do literally everything in the game. No collision with allies/enemies on the other side of the rift should have been a thing from the get-go, I'm adding it to OP. Good point about tidying up, I'll see what I can do.

If Kept Maybe add Proc immunity and Resistance Ignoring to The Milestone Buffs of Dimensional Ace

Although if Rift surge buff is added the Resistance ignoring would Be a bit overkill

CortezHextus · April 10, 2016

Also...I thought of a possible extra power we could slot somewhere. (heck, for that matter a hold-to-alt for Cataclysm) How about a radial power that works like this: (gonna steal my previously used name here)

Labyrinth: Limbo opens a flurry of tears in the Rift, knocking down and banishing enemies leaving them trapped in a prison of Rift energy within a radius of 8/10/12/15 Meters inflicting 200/300/400/500 Blast damage and 300 Impact damage upon entering and leaving the Rift Plane. Duration is 15/20/25/30s.

This mixes wth the idea suggested earlier about changing Cataclysm so that enemies could not simply exit Cataclysm at will. Though they can enter. The basic idea here is that it places a bunch of tiny Cataclysm bubbles around individuals within the radius of the power. Sticking those enemies in place, and banishing them. Dealing light damage.

This goes thematically with my proposition that Limbo is about abstracted terrain control.

I might suggest it be the Hold-to-Alt for his 4. So you could either do Cataclysm or Labyrinth.

I realize I have just put a ton of tricks of Limbo’s sleeves but he’s a magician so that seems fine.

Banish/Group banish
Rift Walk/Portal
Shift Step
Cataclysm/Labyrinth

It’d be heck of a lineup. And none of it would be related to raw damage. Which is a pretty cool idea for a frame.

Edited April 10, 2016 by CortezHextus

Vitalis_Inamorta · April 11, 2016

10 hours ago, Fifield said:

His signature ult...

Has a radius much larger than ANY melee weapon without Reach/Primed Reach when it's unmodded and at rank 30. It can be very easily modded to have a range larger than even the largest weapons with Primed Reach just by adding Stretch to it. His ult can STILL be cast away from him, even if it WERE tiny like you think.

Quote

You're grossly exaggerating here, and Limbo tends to get surrounded.

No, I'm really not. The only reason Stalker keeps up (or used to) is because he cheats (or used to [Stalker likes his stealth buffs/nerfs]) and uses teleports...

Spoiler

Enemies aren't even remotely as fast as the slowest warframe doing a simple bulletjump + roll & jump maneuver. Yes, some other maneuvers are slower, but this alone lets you very easily escape from just about anything, and other maneuvers are STILL quite a bit faster than most enemies in WF.

Everyone tends to get surrounded if they stay long enough in one place and don't kill fast enough.

Quote

Nevertheless, this is your thread, I'll start my own.

Fair enough.

@Crimson Judgement: Quoting you didn't work at all, so I'll do a point by point:

Spoiler

That modified Rift Surge is complicated, so I'll need to do some thinking about where to put the numbers to keep it roughly balanced. If you did keep rift surge as a buffing ability, what would Limbo's passive be?
Activate + Contact is probably the better overall method for Banish, otherwise it could be used to troll teammates pretty easily by putting in certain doorways/placing right in front of enemies. It would still confuse people for a bit, but it's intuitive enough.
I'm not sure what you mean by "Burst Cataclysm", unless you mean apply the pull-in/push-away effects when cataclysm collapses or is collapsed via Banish? That would be a solid idea.
Yeah the resist reduction and proc immunity would have to go with a more "Dimensional Ace" type ability than with a Surge type ability. The name "Dimensional Ace" was just one suggestion too. You can suggest other names like "Planar Contingency" for example if you like :3

2 hours ago, CortezHextus said:

Actually I think I just thought of a better way to approach it while maintaining the intended balance...

Spoiler

Limbo is tricky because it is surprisingly easy to make him an unstoppable killing machine. Reduce enemy accuracy within the Rift. I don't have a good number for how much. But a relatively moderate amount would be ideal. It should be enough to put the advantage in your hands while not eliminating threat. A simple flat reduction of enemy accuracy would improve Tenno lifespan in the rift and firmly put the advantage in their favor. We could fluff it as any number of reasons; weird physics, strange invisible objects, simply harder to see, whatever.

Better plan. Only problem is that enemy accuracy scales to basically 110% pretty fast around level 120+...

Spoiler

From other accuracy reductions (Zephyr's Turbulence vs Grineer) we can see that Grineer accuracy scales so that they not only start hitting Zephyr, but eventually stop missing at all as well. Still, probably the best solution for this type of mechanic.

Quote

I'm very open to this idea as a passive effect of the Rift...

Spoiler

I did suggest it once upon a time in another thread but the concern was raised that it throws off the flow of easy headshots. To me I think the two things that are desperately needed in the Rift as a passive mechanic is some fundamental CC and thematic damage reduction. Being there should be better than not being there. So count me as a thumbs up.

Oh... the headshot difficulty complaint is a very good one, unfortunately. The accuracy reduction is probably the best bet.

Quote

My only concern with that is that I cannot banish multiple targets at range in this case...

Spoiler

I HAVE to get close and that makes Limbo much more of a melee frame than he necessarily needs to be. Shift Step has utility for melee, for sure, but it also has utility in other ways. The reason I suggested he does himself not get rifted with Shift Step was 1 part QOL and one part inverse invulnerability. Sometimes instead of putting myself in the rift I put enemies in the rift to keep them away. Shift step would allow me to jump into a group of enemies and give them the finger before running off. But if I want to AOE snipe a group of enemies with a tonkor or whatever else, right now, I need to queue up a bunch of banishes one at a time. (the recast time seems to feature some kind of delay). So to me Hold-to-multi-banish is good even with Shift Step.

Good point. People in general don't seem to like the idea of combining his 1 and 2 in this thread...

Spoiler

instead favoring diversifying their effects more, so the charged AoE on 1 combined with the activatable portals for allies is probably the best idea, but I disagree that it should be target-less entirely. I'd say that if you target an enemy, you get the single target or AoE banish, and if you target an empty space/ally you get the activatable portal.

Quote

I am pretty firmly against ditching his 2 and merging it with 1. I need seemless control of my position in the Rift. That said...Since we're talking about hold-to-alt powers...What if Portal was his Hold-to-Alt for 2? It very much so fits the theme of what his 2 does and is.

This is a great idea, and I'll add it to the OP.

2 hours ago, CortezHextus said:

Also...I thought of a possible extra power we could slot somewhere...

Spoiler

(heck, for that matter a hold-to-alt for Cataclysm) How about a radial power that works like this: (gonna steal my previously used name here)

Labyrinth: Limbo opens a flurry of tears in the Rift, knocking down and banishing enemies leaving them trapped in a prison of Rift energy within a radius of 8/10/12/15 Meters inflicting 200/300/400/500 Blast damage and 300 Impact damage upon entering and leaving the Rift Plane. Duration is 15/20/25/30s.

This mixes wth the idea suggested earlier about changing Cataclysm so that enemies could not simply exit Cataclysm at will. Though they can enter. The basic idea here is that it places a bunch of tiny Cataclysm bubbles around individuals within the radius of the power. Sticking those enemies in place, and banishing them. Dealing light damage.

This goes thematically with my proposition that Limbo is about abstracted terrain control.

I might suggest it be the Hold-to-Alt for his 4. So you could either do Cataclysm or Labyrinth.

I realize I have just put a ton of tricks of Limbo’s sleeves but he’s a magician so that seems fine.

Banish/Group banish
Rift Walk/Portal
Shift Step
Cataclysm/Labyrinth

Labyrinth is pretty much the same as Cataclysm would be if it had the same Knockdown CC that comes from entering the rift by other means. The only real differences are:

Spoiler

A: That Labyrinth would be a longer CC and less useful if Limbo is already in the Rift, because it doesn't seem like it would stop enemies from attacking, only from moving.

B: That it would potentially require a LOT more VFX and processing power for all the individually rifted enemies.

Quote

It’d be heck of a lineup. And none of it would be related to raw damage. Which is a pretty cool idea for a frame.

Yeah, he kind of does the Banshee-Style "no damaging ability" (except more pure, cause she can kind of Sonar(Resonance) + Quake for pretty solid damage in large groups).

Edited April 11, 2016 by Vitalis_Inamorta
Tidying

(PSN)Crimson_Judgment · April 11, 2016

Spoiler

That modified Rift Surge is complicated, so I'll need to do some thinking about where to put the numbers to keep it roughly balanced. If you did keep rift surge as a buffing ability, what would Limbo's passive be?

Perhaps Limbo Could Enter/Exit The Rift During/Shortly After Parkour Animations While Aimglide And Wall Latch Project a small Rift Portal In front of Him?

This Way When an Evading Limbo doesn't Just Become Harder to Hit or Get a Damage reduction when rolling he's Simply impossible to hit and Invincible

Just my thoughts a passive shouldn't have the Prerequisite of Being in the Rift That makes it the Rifts Passive Not Limbos

Spoiler

I'm not sure what you mean by "Burst Cataclysm", unless you mean apply the pull-in/push-away effects when cataclysm collapses or is collapsed via Banish? That would be a solid idea.

Just a Fancy vague way to Say Deactivates but that's Basically the Gist lol

Also Brainstorming What if Instead of Simply Removing you from the Rift When Rolling We Apply the Same Rift Rent From Banish When Rolling/Parkouring

This Way Player Movement Is Unencumbered By the Rift While Maintaining Freedom to Exit

Also All Available Rift Rents Should be marked on the mini map Like Nezhas Blazing chakram

TwiceDead · April 11, 2016

I don't think Nullifiers should be stated as a problem specific to Limbo. Nullifiers affect every frame in the game, nobody remains unaffected by one, they are a universal threat in the game.

Do they affect some frames more than others? Yes... But that doesn't mean they should get special treatment for it, as it should be up to the player to play around their intentional weaknesses, not for the devs to remove them unless some serious F***-ups and bugs were made on their part.

Vitalis_Inamorta · April 11, 2016

On 4/11/2016 at 6:52 PM, TwiceDead said:

I don't think Nullifiers should be stated as a problem specific to Limbo. Nullifiers affect every frame in the game, nobody remains unaffected by one, they are a universal threat in the game.

Do they affect some frames more than others? Yes... But that doesn't mean they should get special treatment for it, as it should be up to the player to play around their intentional weaknesses, not for the devs to remove them unless some serious F***-ups and bugs were made on their part.

Nullifiers ARE a specific problem to Limbo, in that they cheat his abilities doubly...

Spoiler

(they take the best of both worlds, even when it's mutually contradictory and completely illogical to do so) in ways that they don't with any other frame in the game that I am aware of. Specifically, his abilities place him in a separate plane of reality.

Nullifier shields can pull him out of the Rift. They logically cannot do this unless they exist in the Rift. If they exist in the Rift and can pull people out of it, they should take damage from weaponry used inside the Rift. Period. The alternative is that they shouldn't pull people out of the Rift, in which case they do not exist in the Rift, and are not logically obliged to take damage from weapons that exist only in the Rift.
Nullifiers cheat at Cataclysm too. Logically their shield works one of two ways:
- It keeps them and itself from entering the Rift Plane at all. (They would literally slide right through Cataclysm, being unable to affect anything inside, or shield any allies that were already in the Rift when they showed up.)
- The shield itself can enter the Rift Plane, but it keeps its contents out of the Rift Plane. (They would separate Cataclysm around themselves like water, and anything walking into the bubble would be pulled out of the Rift, and into real space. Conversely, anything that walks out of the bubble enters the Rift Plane. This would allow Nullifiers to shoot through their bubble [which they cheat and do anyways outside of the Rift Plane] and hit people in the Rift, but people in the Rift would also be able to shoot back without hitting their shield at all).

What happens in reality is that they enter the area of Cataclysm, and can shoot you from their bubble, but not only can you not shoot them too, but you can't even damage their bubble. It's very literally cheating and illogical in every single possible way.

Nullifiers literally don't have any weaknesses against Limbo. Not only that, but they pull strengths out of their &#! versus him that they don't have against any other frames.

I'd even go so far as to say that nullifiers themselves are Effed up bugs, in that they were poorly designed, and cause significant unnecessary detrimental effects to the gameplay that are completely irrelevant to their intended function:

Spoiler

Intended Function: Stop afk botting/ability spam no-skill farming on certain maps with potentially extremely high numbers of enemy spawns in short periods of time.

Actual Function: Stop afk botting on corpus/tower maps, do nothing about grineer/infested maps (infested now have the much better combination of Ancient Disruptor [90% reduction to damage from abilities to allied units/themselves inside their aura] and Ancient Healer [85 or 90% reduction to all damage done to allies, stacks on non-ancient units]. Oh, yeah, they also make sniper and other slow and powerful weapons, which were already avoided by most, into absolutely terrible weapons because of their bullS#&$ illogical (moronic, sorry, but it is) minimum number of shots required to take down the shield, which means that the automatic/continuous weapons everyone already favored are now the only viable option on corpus/tower maps at high levels.

Nullifiers just need to die. Comba/Scrambus should be invulnerable in and of themselves to the types of abilities they are supposed to nullifiy, even if cast from outside the field, then they can replace the $&*&*#(%&ness that is nullifiers.

On 4/11/2016 at 5:59 PM, (PS4)Crimson_Judgment said:

Perhaps Limbo Could Enter/Exit The Rift During/Shortly After Parkour Animations While Aimglide And Wall Latch Project a small Rift Portal In front of Him?

Also Brainstorming What if Instead of Simply Removing you from the Rift When Rolling We Apply the Same Rift Rent From Banish When Rolling/Parkouring

This Way Player Movement Is Unencumbered By the Rift While Maintaining Freedom to Exit

Also All Available Rift Rents Should be marked on the mini map Like Nezhas Blazing chakram

So you're saying people can still roll out of the rift, but aim-glide/wall-latch within the remaining duration of the ability would drop you back in? Ideally it'd send you back in when you release those abilities, to retain the maximum amount of their usefulness. It would have to keep a timer running on you though, maybe pausing it when you exit the Rift?

Edited April 19, 2016 by Vitalis_Inamorta

Aquasurge · April 11, 2016

9 hours ago, CortezHextus said:

We could fluff it as any number of reasons; weird physics, strange invisible objects, simply harder to see, whatever.

yes, invisible floating object in the rift for elevation +1

Vitalis_Inamorta · April 11, 2016

1 minute ago, Aquasurge said:

yes, invisible floating object in the rift for elevation +1

Nah, let's do it full I-Wanna-Be-The-Guy style and put invisible deadly things in every single place where they are the most inconvenient/impossible to deal with!

Spoiler

Just kidding.

Aquasurge · April 11, 2016

10 minutes ago, Vitalis_Inamorta said:

Nah, let's do it full I-Wanna-Be-The-Guy style and put invisible deadly things in every single place where they are the most inconvenient/impossible to deal with!

Hide contents

Just kidding.

lol, i actually forgot to take out the stealth loki sydrome.

would probably be worse if floating debris in the rift would actually be invis. it would squeeze my heart out.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Aquasurge

Fix Limbo's Potential and intuitiveness!

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in

Warframe

Account

Community

Support