Lack Of Challenge May Ruin This Game

[rlro]

I replied to a thread in General Discussion saying the lack of a major objective would kill this game. I have a completely different opinion and I consider the complete lack of challenge is what will eventually kill Warframe. I decided to post my opinion here so more people could see and comment.

 

This game was inspired in Mass Effect III multi-player which is still very active today, around one and a half year after its initial release (which is even more amazing considering the development of multi-player content officially ended 3 months ago). ME3 also doesn't have any major objective or goal (each mission is individual, during from 14 to 30 min, and apart from leveling up weapons and classes, there is nothing major to accomplish - pretty much the same thing as with Warframe).

 

The major problem with Warframe lies in its total lack of challenge. This game is way too easy (I should say effortless) after you level up some important mods. I can kill any boss in the game in less than 10s (except Jackal, but that doesn't really matter) using a potatoed Gorgon (with no forma). I can complete any mission (including T2 void) with a mid-level frame and mid-level weapons without dying a single time. The only a little more challenging missions are T3 void, but I can easily solo them with any level 30 frame and my Gorgon.

 

Coming back to Mass Effect III, it has 4 difficult levels. Just a handful of players (and I mean it) are able to solo the higher difficult level and even those who can need several attempts to succeed. Even with a 4 team experienced players and leveled up characters and weapons, the game still presents enough challenge to be fun.

 

So, even if Warframe don't have a major objective (I don't see this as a real problem), if it presented much higher difficulty people would still be playing it months (perhaps years) from now. The way it is now, there is simply no incentive at all: why would I build/level up my Supra and add Forma(s) to it if I can easily solo any mission and kill everything with a standard Braton/Boltor/Gorgon (or almost any other weapon)?

 

Comments please.

[Mupplo]

Endless defense.

 

I still agree we need more challenging enemies and objectives though.

[PliwoFactor]

Agreed. They could eventually make another galaxy you can access which has much higher difficulty on the NPCs, so you could get around the same feeling as you have on platinium(Highest difficulty on Mass effect III, which is pretty tough) that also forces you to work together with other people, so you can't simply just solo it.

[Archistopheles]

Tower 3 and endless defense.

 

Tower 3 Endless Defense is also in the works.

[Dantal]

They have already stated difficulty levels are in the works.

[Xan-Diesel]

I can complete any mission (including T2 void) with a mid-level frame and mid-level weapons without dying a single time. The only a little more challenging missions are T3 void, but I can easily solo them with any level 30 frame and my Gorgon.

Wow. I must suck. I exclusively play solo and can hardly get through a level. I kill 450+ enemies and they seem to keep coming, to the point where I can't even turn around to let my shield recharge because they're shooting me in the back too. The game is difficult for me as a solo player, but so was ME3. I was only able to solo Gold difficulty a couple of times (as the Geth Juggernaut, at that). I guess they're about the same (in terms of difficulty) for me.

[KALUHS]

pvp=challenge

[crusnik001]

a hardmode difficulty would solve this problem, and offer alot of replay value for the earlier systems,

they could make it so that when you complete a system there is a way to get a key that unlocks the hardmode for that system (which has to be unlocked like the regular levels, forcing you to replay instead of going straight for the boss)

the keys could be obtained from a rare drop, or an achievement or something with a specific goal for each system

[Mickey1779]

The PS4 preview video is titled "The Call" and Steve did refer to his meeting with Sony as "Season 1".

Also for those that did not see Steve's interview at E3, the guy at the end of the preview video is not dead and is likely going to be a new Grineer boss with his legs and upper torso connected somehow.

I think we are all in for a hell of a ride for the next four months as WarFrame gets polished up for the PS4 release and I personally can't wait to see what DE has in store for WarFrame.

[Sean44]

the guy at the end of the preview video is not dead and is likely going to be a new Grineer boss

 

Kinda obvious, seeing how they say it's gonnahave a sneak peek of future content, and the fact that the Void Key revives the bossman at the end.

[unmog]

Eh, I think it needs more content, story, better gameplay, more responsive controls, etc. Difficulty is the easy problem to answer really. Id like more meat and potatoes. Still, I cant fault a beta game for being mostly bones. Hopefully they implement more to this game than farming though.

[Brangutang]

I do believe I either read in a post, or heard on one of the livestreams, that difficulty tiers is something they're looking into implementing, though I may be wrong. Regardless, this game is still in its earlier phases and I'm guessing they haven't expected people to be plowing through the content so quickly. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what they do with the added difficulty. Personally I haven't found it to be too easy, but maybe that's just me xD

[unmog]

Eh... as far as difficulty, Ive never needed to buy more lives... ever. I die every now and then though, sure, it happens, its annoying.

 

Do I think it's too easy? Naw, its a good middle zone I think. If its too hard new people will have a hard time getting into it. Would I mind if they started making it more like Dark/Demon Souls? Naw, I dont think this is that kind of game. Just feel good that you're better than average, no need to make it so no one else can play because theyre "not as good as you" right?

 

I would like to see some more fighting game elements into it though, maybe like combination attacks, special moves [not the same as warframe abilities... I mean like street fighter or soul calibur] and maybe some more weapon customization options.Something that isnt too hard to get into, but rewarding if you learn to master it.

 

Unless you mean difficult as in "I STILL haven't found a split chamber! OMGWTFmfvjnfdfgv!!!11" *starts typing by smashing face into keyboard* Ugh...

[rlro]

Eh... as far as difficulty, Ive never needed to buy more lives... ever. I die every now and then though, sure, it happens, its annoying.

 

Do I think it's too easy? Naw, its a good middle zone I think. If its too hard new people will have a hard time getting into it. Would I mind if they started making it more like Dark/Demon Souls? Naw, I dont think this is that kind of game. Just feel good that you're better than average, no need to make it so no one else can play because theyre "not as good as you" right?

 

Not at all. Creating more challenges doesn't mean making the whole game more difficult. It means creating other planets, adding new levels, adding hardcore mode, difficulty slider, whatever. This way casual players as well as above average players will have fun. Mass Effect III accomplished this by creating 4 difficult levels: bronze, silver, gold and platinum. The higher the level, the better the reward. Any player would stick to the level they liked the most. This same thing could be implemented in Warframe as well.

[poTshoT]

This game needs to take a lesson from Left4dead, and what I mean by that, is to add enemies that are able to disable or separate the players and kill them; kinda like the charger, hunter, smoker or jockey. But I would like to suggest some improvements to existing enemy types that I think could use a much needed buff. Below are my suggestions to make some enemies more threatening and have more presence on the battlefield.

 

EDIT: not many people liked the knockdowns, and I agree it can get annoying if overused...I mean the frames themselves kinda just take their time getting back up. So I made some changes to my post. Also, after some further review I've removed some of my changes seeing as they are unnecessary.

GRINEER

Sawman/Powerfist/Scorpion
-Make them faster as to engage the players more quickly.

-Give them a 3 hit combo.

 

Flameblade

-Make his teleport stagger multiple targets upon landing

-Make him faster

 

Shield Lancer

-The shield lancer should be immune to attacks from the front(as in, I shouldn't be able to shoot his feet and kill him)

 

Grineer Bombard

-Remove the rocket's homing, and make the projectile speed much faster and shoot in a straight line.

-Rockets knock down players if they are caught within the damage radius

 

Grineer Napalm

-flames should deal damage over time, cause right now they don't. I mean your guy is on fire, it makes sense at least.

 

Grineer Ballista

-increase range

-only spawn in long hallways or big open areas.

 

CORPUS

Moas

-They should be able to shoot AND run.

 

Shockwave Moas

-Make the stomp attack faster - right now its too slow and gives the players plenty of time to take it out before it even has a chance to stomp.

-It should also be able to shoot and run.

 

Mine Ospreys

-Have their mines be proximity mines. Ive walked over them numerous times without them detonating

 

Railgun Moas

-The railgun should ignore shields and not walls.

 

INFESTED

Leapers

-Make their knockdown attack faster - once again...too slow

 

Toxic Ancient

-Poison should deal increased damage and last longer; 1 point of damage over time is pathetic.

-Poison should also stack with other poison, making it more potent

 

Well that's all I can think of at the moment. As for casual players, they need not worry because the special enemy types don't appear until they gain access to the higher level planets, and since the game scales in level(enemy health/armor/damage) adding a "monster power" would work well anyway. I just want to address the actual functionality of the enemies themselves because at the moment they are just beat-sticks - just hit em till they die.

Edited June 14, 2013 by poTshoT

[Xan-Diesel]

Mass Effect III accomplished this by creating 4 difficult levels: bronze, silver, gold and platinum. The higher the level, the better the reward. Any player would stick to the level they liked the most. This same thing could be implemented in Warframe as well.

I would definitely love the four difficulty split featured in Warframe. That, and the challenges. I loved them!

[escape123]

I don't think they should change the currently difficulty of planets. It's just fine (as a lot of people aren't modded)<br /><br />But maybe add like a heroic dungeon run (like the difficulty levels as proposed above) as an additional option

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

The problem is (and I see this with a lot of suggestions) that this game relies on a very hamfisted idea of challenge, as do the players. Giving enemies more HP and letting them knock you down isn't a proper challenge. It makes the game harder, but not in fun ways. Knockdown and stun is the worst way to implement challenge into a game, and if that's all you rely on then it's a bad sign.

[Versal]

More game types would be lovely. (Not the touch A, go to B, extraction types either)

Edited June 13, 2013 by Versal

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

More game types would be lovely. (Not the touch A, go to B, extraction types either)

I'd love to see more expansion on "mobile defense". Either have it so your defense targets have shorter times but are spread through the map rather than being next to each other with huge limits. Or maybe actually make it a mobile defense and have the tenno defending a mobile target (maybe a vehicle or something?) from swarms of dudes.

[fatpig84]

Less bullet sponge and crippling enemies but more devastating good ones.

Enemies that can only be killed in a certain manner for example.

 

Grineer Devastator Heavy Assault unit 

Twin shoulder mounted Ogris launchers and twin arm mounted gorgon rifles.

Each rocket does 800 damage and the Gorgons deal 100 damage per bullet.

 

Heavy splash damage forces players to parkour and fly to the enemy or rush past them, not sit out and camp.

 

Takes crippling damage to the joints that connect the legs and arm to the torso chassis.

No other body shots even armor ignore, deals no damage except from rear.

Edited June 13, 2013 by fatpig84

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

Less bullet sponge and crippling enemies but more devastating good ones.

Enemies that can only be killed in a certain manner for example.

 

Grineer Devastator Heavy Assault unit 

Twin shoulder mounted Ogris launchers and twin arm mounted gorgon rifles.

Each rocket does 800 damage and the Gorgons deal 100 damage per bullet.

 

Heavy splash damage forces players to parkour and fly to the enemy or rush past them, not sit out and camp.

 

Takes crippling damage to the joints that connect the legs and arm to the torso chassis.

No other body shots even armor ignore, deals no damage except from rear.

Hell, maybe even make it so light-melee like swords or daggers can cut the armour off or something (a buff for light melee weapons) and add a few more armored heavy enemies in and you've got an entire new class of enemy and some more tactics to deal with them.

[aerokiss]

I'm hoping they keep developing the game steadily but until then, constantly farming and grinding is challenge enough

[CosyPigeon]

Half of your difficulty suggestions involve adding more knock down and stagger, whilst I agree that the game should be more difficult, and have varying challenges, I do not want to see more knock down and stagger in a game that is already stuffed full of it. Removing players control as means of increasing difficulty is a copout, improving enemy AI and tactics, making them more agressive, and giving them abilities that encourage players to move out of the way to avoid damage instead of just standing out in the open picking off targets would go a long way to improving this game's difficulty. 

[Feneckus]

I soloed Kiliken till wave 30 (level 80 mobs) with an unranked Vauban. It was the best fun I ever had with this game in a long time. Finally a bit of a challenge. Railgun MOAs could one shot me and my shields were made of wet paper. Too bad I got offered Master Thief, I had to claim and exit even though I wanted to see how far I could go.

It's a shame you have to do ridiculous stuff like this for the game to be challenging.

I definitely would want more challenging missions, as long as it's done smartly. Not the Mass Effect way which is to add more HP and more stunlock to the enemies. Then it doesn't become harder, it just becomes more tedious.