Damage Abilitys Useless Later On

[TheGameYouJustLostIt]

In a tower III void mission, damage abilities barely do anything even maxed with focus. It's all about guns, thus making anything that isn't utility pointless to have.

 

 

Anyone else think this?

[Depar]

take away the 1 button win and everybody loses their mind

 

no srsly your frame has 4 abilitys use them wisley

 

try to score headshots with slashdash, use more skills to cc your enemys, sonar is rly usefull outside a boss fight onetime

 

youre right in terms of needing you guns, but you abilitys are never useless

[Tsukinoki]

Damaging abilities have never scaled well in this game.

Early on hitting an enemy for 1K damage from radial javelin is quite a lot. When you get into the Tower III missions hitting a heavy gunner with all 13 javelins doesnt drop it.

Weapons scale a lot better because of the mods that you can apply to them and such to allow them to keep up with the enemies. And if abilities scaled as high as the weapons do so that they are still useful in the end game there would be a horde of people complaining that abilities are too powerful and make the game too easy.

I am of the stance that abilities need to scale a bit more towards the endgame so that frames with damaging abilities are still useful there, but not so much as to make abilities the end-all-be-all of endgame gameplay. And a way to do this is to cap the damage the abilities can do based on the enemies levels. Such as with all content lower than level 50 or so have it cap out around the same damage we can do now with our abilities. When you go into higher level planets allow the damaging abilties to start dealing a bit more damage based off of the enemy level so that frames that rely on those abilities stay more useful, and so that abilities would be a viable alternative to gunplay.

This would serve to make caster frames more viable and powerful endgame than they currently are where you honestly dont care that volt can cast overload when a bastille is *much* more helpful at those higher levels. And if it is balanced properly it wont be a button 4 wins. The abilities shouldn't be able to just drop enemies around level 70+, but they should still be able to noticeably affect them along with the gun damage.

At this point in the game, trying to make a high damage caster frame for endgame doesn't work out so well, and I believe that it should be doable to make a caster frame focused around ability usage just as much as gunplay. This will just encourage a different type of gameplay, but guns will still be better because they scale up faster, deal more consistant damage, and your ammo will last a lot longer than your energy at higher levels.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Depar]

scaling is a good point, and yeah overload will didnt do S#&$ in t3 but your electric shield will cover you, use speed to backup and get a better position

for the casterframes, yes the rely on ther guns but also not ever skill is useless

[Tsukinoki]

@Depar

While I will agree that each frame has abilities that are useful regardless of the level of enemies that you are fighting, I will say that it should be possible for a player that prefers using their abilities just as much as, if not more than, their guns should be able to use that playstyle in the endgame.

This will also help if DE ever makes a frame with purely offensive abilities to still have useful abilities come the end game levels.

Currently utility and CC abilities are king in tower III, but that doesn't mean that DE cant make damaging abilities more useful there as well. It would also give more options to the players, which is always a good thing.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[ethics]

I agree with you, i use guns 99% of the time and the rest is snow globe 9which is utility as you stated) however i'd rather have the more difficult mission with more restrictions than level 80 enemies that succumb the same as a lvl 1 enemy when i press number 4.

It's artificial difficulty, and lots of ideas for better changes have been suggested but it's all i have right now.

[unmog]

Its mostly abilities that dont ignore armor really I think. Personally I think all of them should. The ones that dont are really weak in comparisons to the ones that do. They cost the same to cast after all, should be more even in terms of output.

 

Edit: Its why Im in love with Nyx, doesnt matter the strength of my enemies, their strength becomes my strength! DANCE FOR ME MY PUPPETS! DANCE FOR ME THE DANCE OF DEATH!

Edited June 14, 2013 by unmog

[Tsukinoki]

@ethics

Which is why I mentioned both scaling and capping.

I dont want a level 80+ enemy to just die when I hit it with an ult, but it should still get noticeably damaged and it should help. The abilities dont have to scale anywhere near as fast as a gun can, but they should still be useful. And against a level 100 heavy gunner 13K damage from all 13 javelins from a single radial javelin wont drop it. The scaling I am talking about is maybe have that level 100 heavy gunner suffer 1.5K or even 2K damage per javelin instead of 1K.

This would keep the abilities useful without making them "I win" buttons like they are at the lower levels. Currently you see similar things happen in high wave count defense missions. Once the enemies hit a certain point damaging abilities become useless. And after another point they become such huge bullet sponges that you risk running out of ammo against a heavy trying to down them.

What I am suggesting would keep abilities useful in the higher levels so that you can at least do something to them.

[TheGameYouJustLostIt]

I'm not saying make them kill everything like they do low level. I just want to be able to cast shuriken and do noticeable damage when both hit a normal corrupted.

[Winterbraid]

Or, you know, find other ways to make the game difficult without infinitely giving enemies more HP/armor/DPS. Endless inflation of enemy stats is what ruined many progression-based games for me before. What's the point of progress if I feel less and less powerful as I move on?

Edited June 14, 2013 by Winterbraid

[Depar]

David vs Goliath, you feel good when little you bash the face of an giant/strong enemy

 

Supercreeps is always a problematic topic, but when i think that my volt/banshee/saryn or any other press ult

and kill everything in range-frame clear the whole minimap, i feel more like well that was all?

 

yes, i still want more dmg-abilitys to scale with my enemys but not to much

[ZenekZezool]

How about module for weapons, that adds "ablity-vurnerability" to the target it hits for a short period? That way you could "tag" enemies with few shots and then hit them stronger with your ability?

[Depar]

thats not a good solution imo, you weak or gun to improve your ability

but it would be kinda interesting

[ZenekZezool]

Well, that's a way for heavy-ability users to play their own style. If they complain about the need for gun usage, let them descrease the power of gun in favor of their abilities. It's just an option that some may choose :)

[Depar]

like i said still interesting, shoot that heavy in the face with my strun and give it a 50% more dmging icewave to

 

/edit

 

could be a good V mod idea for you warframe, so you dont have to weak you gun at all

Edited June 14, 2013 by Depar

[Tsukinoki]

@ZenekZezool

I think that would be better for your frame to have then your weapons.

Therefore you can tag people with any of your weapons, be it rifle shotgun pistol or melee weapon and then use your damaging abilities to more effect. And they wouldn't have to clutter up the drop tables with the same mod for all the different weapons, just put it in once as a rare warframe mod.

And they need more V polarity warframe mods anyways.

[Winterbraid]

David vs Goliath, you feel good when little you bash the face of an giant/strong enemy

 

Supercreeps is always a problematic topic, but when i think that my volt/banshee/saryn or any other press ult

and kill everything in range-frame clear the whole minimap, i feel more like well that was all?

 

yes, i still want more dmg-abilitys to scale with my enemys but not to much

 

I'm not saying every enemy should instantly die, but I wouldn't mind a bit consistency. I'd like to be able to count on my abilities, for example tell myself 'Okay, I press 4 and enemy A will die but enemy B will not, so I will need to help him with X bullets from my gun.'

 

Instead for the vast majority of the game I press 4 and both A and B die. Then I enter Defense and it's the same at first, all good there. But then, a couple waves later, A dies but B does not, and a couple waves further in neither A nor B die. (Talking about maxed Focus here, so it's not like I can improve my abilities further.) The game suddenly forces me to forget what it taught me throughout many hours of gameplay, and that's a pretty bad thing in my opinion.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Winterbraid

[ZenekZezool]

@Tsunoki, Depar

 

Yeah, you both may be right about putting this mod into warframe. In fact, if the vurnerability worked in such a way that everyone anyone's ability used on that target is stronger, this could add some more supportive role for the player who owns it.

 

Damn, my english is really bad today, don't know what's going on, sorry :/

Edited June 14, 2013 by ZenekZezool

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Direct damage skills shine in the lower levels and age badly in the higher levels.

 

Crowd control and utility skills do not kill or damage enemies much but tend to shine in higher levels when the direct damage skills are almost useless.

 

This is how it has always been and there is nothing wrong with it.

 

You are supposed to be using all 4 of the skills if possible, not just 1 or 2.

 

This is also why I can never understand why people constantly call for nerfs on direct damage skills even though they are almost completely useless in the higher levels.

 

With the introduction of the Void and T3, it has now become more obvious but it has always been like that.

[Tsukinoki]

@OoKeNnEtHoO

And while that has always been the case, there should be a change made that will allow damaging skills to at least be somewhat useful at the higher levels. Otherwise frames with mostly offensive abilities are going to be getting less and less effective at the higher levels and therefore not used as much.

And it also means that if DE ever creates a frame with only offensive abilities that once you hit the higher levels it will be completely useless. Which should be avoided.

[Enomilli]

*Meanwhile playing Saryn in T3 Void*

 

That's not true :o

[unmog]

You are supposed to be using all 4 of the skills if possible, not just 1 or 2.

I disagree! It should be up to the player to decide which skills they like. If anything, I think we should have a minimum of 6-8 abilities to choose from and not just the four. Regardless, I run my Nyx with only one ability >.>

 

I do think the other frames though could use with some adjustment to their abilities though. Make all ultimates ignore armor for instance. Lots of Mag's abilities could use some TLC as well. Then theres some that just dont level up like Snowglobe, and Ive always thought there should be some improvement from level 0 to level 1 but I dont know any off hand that do.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

@OoKeNnEtHoO

And while that has always been the case, there should be a change made that will allow damaging skills to at least be somewhat useful at the higher levels. Otherwise frames with mostly offensive abilities are going to be getting less and less effective at the higher levels and therefore not used as much.

And it also means that if DE ever creates a frame with only offensive abilities that once you hit the higher levels it will be completely useless. Which should be avoided.

 

The thing is we are supposed to be playing all the frames, not just 1 or 2.

 

If we are playing in lower levels, use a frame that has mostly direct damage skills.

 

If we are playing in higher levels, use a frame that has mostly utility skills.

 

If we want it to be difficult for ourselves, then do the opposite.

 

The problem is most people expect every frame to be equal.

 

If that is the case, why bother to craft more than 1 frame since all the other frames will fair just as well anyway?

 

Of course, this is my personal opinion and I am not saying that you are wrong either.

Edited June 14, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Tsukinoki]

@Ystella

*Most* abilities that deal pure damage start to become really lacking in T3 tower or high wave defense missions. Not all but most. And for the majority of the the abilities in the game having some form of scaling with the enemies would keep it a viable alternative and keep *all* of your abilities useful.

As OoKeNnEtHoO has mentioned you should be using all of your abilities, not just 1 or 2. Scaling the ability damage to keep up would allow you to use all of your abilities and not just the utility/cc ones.

@OoKeNnEtHoO

I think that you should still be able to bring any frame into the higher levels and have some abilities to contribute that are useful. If they ever make a pure offensive frame they will need some way to make it useful in the later levels, otherwise why craft a frame if its only useful up to earth because of damage fall off?

Edited June 14, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[unmog]

The problem is most people expect every frame to be equal.

 

If that is the case, why bother to craft more than 1 frame since all the other frames will fair just as well anyway?

I dont think thats a problem at all. The difference though is they expect each frame to be equal in the term of usefulness, but the abilities arent balanced with one another. For instance, Ash's Shuriken does a lot more damage than Nyx's psychi bolts, but it's essentially the same attack. The only difference is Nyx's attack costs more. That doesnt make a lot of sense does it? Why should one ability cost more and do less damage, than another frames similar ability?

 

Could also compare Mag's Crush with other Frames direct damage abilities, it just gets outshined by basically every other frames ultimate. Then you have issues with some frames just not having very useful utility abilities, like Mag's pull for instance. Or her shield polarization which is under inspiring... and well basically Mag doesnt have ANY good abilities really. Even bullet attractor is only good with excalibur, it should increase the damage to all shots to that of a crit or headshot since you lose the ability to headshot the enemy while its cast on them,