Press 4 To Kill Everything!

[SmallPaws]

1) Its already split just that way between rushes and explores.  Same argument can be raised there.  The solution?  Build a contact list and play with those people.  All you're problems with pugs will then be solved.

2) Opinion.  If I take the time and spec my warframe to toss out ults all day long I should be able to toss out ults all day long.  Im sacrificing other things to achieve that so what right do you have to stop my play style?

3) Why was her chaos nerfed?  it was OP as hell because it had NO time limit.  Not because DE wanted people to not endlessly farm with it, but because it was BROKEN and OP.  That is why it was 'nerfed' and had a maximum time limit added to it.  ALSO Chaos is NOT Nyx's ult...Absorb is her ult so please dont bring in a number 3 ability into this when it has no bearing on the conversation.

4a) Opinion.  I dont have any interest in Nyx even before they added a time limit to how long Chaos lasted.

4b) Refer to 3.  Ult spamming had nothing to do with what they did to Chaos.

5) Again opinion.

Hmm..3 of your 6 points are opinion based....maybe that means you should play with people of similar opinions?  Just a thought.

 

Again not a reason to prevent people from using their powers as they see fit.  There are plenty of low level groups that dont spam abilities and ults, and plenty that do.

It might ruin your fun, but for quite a few new players I have played with, when I drop an avalanche and clear a room I get messages of "Wow" and "Cool" and "I cant wait to be able to do that".  It shows people how fun the game can be.

Just because you dont like it doesnt mean that it should be ruined for the people who do like it.

 

 

1) You haven't addressed my issue of a large population of the players being unable to play on a regular basis.

 

2) What right do you have to take from mine if I worked on my warframe all day but can't get as many kills because you have a button to win when I prefer the more tactical side?

 

3) That wasn't even relevant to what you began to argue with. You mentioned that you didn't know the reason behind her nerf, and now you present it. I clearly stated that the nerf was something the community could definitely say was because it was indeed OP. And many consider it her ult due to how much more effective it is over her ult. 

 

4a) My opinion was supported with the growing Nyx player-base. And "I dont have any interest in Nyx even before they added a time limit to how long Chaos lasted."  That's also an opinion that provides no counter-argument to my claim.

 

4b) What players primarily used was Chaos spam on top of a system that was broken in endless defense. This does not deny the fact that this is still spam.

 

5) Again opinion backed with evidence that I'm not going to bring up. Go look up videos of high level endless defense farming.

Edited July 9, 2013 by SmallPaws

[Ohzza]

all frames (currently excluding Vauban) are just about equally as difficult to get (there's almost always somebody to carry you through a public boss run, so no troubles about the bosses level there). 

 

Or you can just get trinity first and solo every boss forever.

[neKroMancer]

Look like this topic is going nowhere.

 

We all know that there is scaling issue with the current ultimate design. Apart from a few special snowflakes (Rhino post 8.3, Nyx, and Loki), they all deliver static damage which means they're going to miserably fail in higher level mission (don't even think about nightmare mode).

 

The problem is : How to make ultimates' scaling better in higher difficulty while retaining their original purpose, an emergency button?

 

-imo, there are two ways to do this.

1. Change ultimate design and add utility aspect to all of them. Rhino stomp is a good example - it has both CC and damage in one package. In the event which pure damage from the power isn't enough to kill, player still use it due to its CC aspect. Loki's radial disarm is in the same category albeit being more situational.

 

2. We know that CD system isn't going to work since it will slow the pace down considerably. If we're going to change the underlying 'spammy' problem then other solutions are needed.

 

- I proposed turning damaging ultimates into OHK power regardless of level with limited use per mission. I still think this is viable solution since in ultimates are crap in higher level because of scaling. Give them OHK but limited number of use will considerably increase their viability in these situations while retaining the tactical property in term of design. If anyone familiar with ME3MP you know that Hydra missile is a perfect example. However, I don't think endless defense should be used as a balancing factor but that's for another topic.

 

- Use fighting game mechanic. Ultimates now have their own separate bar which increase after damage dealt with weapon/taken. When the bar is full then you have 1 cast of ultimate. If you decide not to use it, you can collect 'damage' further and increase the number of cast for your ultimate. Maximum number of cast depends on ultimate's level.    

Edited July 9, 2013 by neKroMancer

[Carcharias]

1) That leaves many players with the option of playing with pugs, which should be a comparable alternative if not equal. Many players are on a schedule that does not allow them to play consistently with a pre-formed group of other like-minded players or to join a clan sizable enough to be active consistently. DE should not exclude a certain group of players because pugs are not a viable option to play in.

 

2) There should be a limitation on how much one player gets to enjoy at the expense of another.

 

3) My presumption was based off of hard evidence as you can clearly go look at the pre-nerf Nyx videos on youtube, to which players could solo Xini upth-80+ waves at a time. It also shows through the actions of the players as you can find many Nyx players in defense missions at the time. DE rightly nerfed as needed.

 

4) Of course none of the players know what the DE's thought exactly when nerfing Nyx's Chaos,

 

5) Not going to argue with this because it is indeed an opinion, but it is the basis of my argument.

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

1) The issue you have stated is not the one currently discussed. But I will touch on it:

 

2) Ults that are well-placed and have some thought put into them are immensely effective with little to no consequence.

 

3) Again, you assume that all players have access to higher level content or missions.

 

4) Let me answer your question with a question:

^ So much stuff. I trimmed it to take up less room on the screen, and in the interest of time trimmed my points to one simple thing that cannot backfire.

 

Contact list

1) Play with random people.

2) Add people whose play style you agree with to you contacts list.

3) Do not add people to your contacts list that you disagree with for any reason. (any reason at all it's up to you)

4) After some time you will have a list of players personally approved by you. Play with them.

5) Maintain your list. If you need to boot someone of if someone stops playing you may have to play some more randoms to refill your list.

 

There you go! My personal step by step guide of how to play with like minded players. "Many players are on a schedule / don't have a lot of time."- Irrelevant if you follow these steps. Granted the less time you have the longer it will take you to compile your list but the same can be said for any goal in the game. The less time you have to play the more IRL time it will take you to get to rank 30, or rank your weapon to 30, ect ect.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just for the fun of it..

 

"2) There should be a limitation on how much one player gets to enjoy at the expense of another." If you consider players playing the game X way to be "at your expense** " you don't really have a realistic handle on how coop works. You pair up with other players. On the internet. They can do what ever the platform allows them to do. If this is bringing you down,   do  not  play  with  those  individuals. Simple, of course it would be easier if we had an ignore list I will definitely grant you that much.

 

Yes if you have limited time everything in the game will take longer to do period. This whole "some people don't have access to high end missions" just demonstrates impatience. Keep playing and you will get there, it's just a matter of time. The less time you have to put into the game the more IRL time it will take to get there but that is the basic truth between "live in your world, game in ours." The clocks are inherently linked.

 

"2) What right do you have to take from mine if I worked on my warframe all day but can't get as many kills because you have a button to win when I prefer the more tactical side?" - Dude, this is kinda over the top. It's a game. No one has a "right" to any mob or kill. If you want all the mobs on the map to "belong" to you and be your Dev granted "right" then you want to play solo. It's the only way to assure your "right" to a given group of mobs. Be glad that you do get xp from all your team mate kills otherwise you would have a serious argument here.

 

** You do realize that this is basically the same complaint that the rushers vs. turtles have right? The whole "X group of players is ruining my gaming experience, how dare they!" Don't worry the answer for both crowds is to use the contacts list and play with like minded players. Or you could find the right clan and join it.

 

P.S.

Also it could just be my vanity or the fact that our posts were formatted in a similar fashion but on page 6 you seem to be responding to me as you referenced your response to my previous post, but you quoted Tsukinoki instead, kinda confusing. I think you were still writing your response when Tsukinoki posted his. So you may want to go easy on Tsukinoki saying you didn't address this or that cause he wasn't. When I read his post your response to mine wasn't up yet. Anyways, don't really matter. Point stays the same.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Carcharias

[Starbridge]

If you dont like your "panic button" then dont use it.  Take that power out and use a forma to change the slot.  I enjoying my panic button for farming mods and craft mats.

 

Easy fix, dont use it.

Easy fix, take it off.

Easy fix, dont play with random people.

Easy fix, sell your mod.

 

There, that was easy.

[Carcharias]

^ Almost like you had a button.  :p

[merryfistmas]

Maybe make everyone's ultimate different so they're not all just "kill everything in an aoe around you."

Edited July 9, 2013 by merryfistmas

[Tasurinchi]

Look like this topic is going nowhere.

 

We all know that there is scaling issue with the current ultimate design. Apart from a few special snowflakes (Rhino post 8.3, Nyx, and Loki), they all deliver static damage which means they're going to miserably fail in higher level mission (don't even think about nightmare mode).

 

The problem is : How to make ultimates' scaling better in higher difficulty while retaining their original purpose, an emergency button?

 

-imo, there are two ways to do this.

1. Change ultimate design and add utility aspect to all of them. Rhino stomp is a good example - it has both CC and damage in one package. In the event which pure damage from the power isn't enough to kill, player still use it due to its CC aspect. Loki's radial disarm is in the same category albeit being more situational.

 

2. We know that CD system isn't going to work since it will slow the pace down considerably. If we're going to change the underlying 'spammy' problem then other solutions are needed.

 

- I proposed turning damaging ultimates into OHK power regardless of level with limited use per mission. I still think this is viable solution since in ultimates are crap in higher level because of scaling. Give them OHK but limited number of use will considerably increase their viability in these situations while retaining the tactical property in term of design. If anyone familiar with ME3MP you know that Hydra missile is a perfect example. However, I don't think endless defense should be used as a balancing factor but that's for another topic.

 

- Use fighting game mechanic. Ultimates now have their own separate bar which increase after damage dealt with weapon/taken. When the bar is full then you have 1 cast of ultimate. If you decide not to use it, you can collect 'damage' further and increase the number of cast for your ultimate. Maximum number of cast depends on ultimate's level.    

The last point is, to my consideration, the best solution proposed so far. As long as it also takes in consideration rather "caster" based warframes

.

[-BELLUM-]

I understand an appreciate this idea but,...... the challenge factor wont be much of a problem once they implement higher difficulty options for existing maps. If you like to know more it's mentioned in live stream #9 right here....

 

 

I'm a player who frequently fights into defense waves 50 or higher all the time, and if whats to come matches that experience in regular missions... you'll feel like you've shot yourself in the foot in asking for this sort of feature.

 

Sorry, but you're going to find yourself very much alone on this matter, be flexible and find a group or clan thats more to your liking in gameplay style.

Edited July 9, 2013 by -BELLUM-

[neKroMancer]

The last point is, to my consideration, the best solution proposed so far. As long as it also takes in consideration rather "caster" based warframes

.

 

Problem with power damage is that some powers are really devastating. For example : Bladestrom - despite the fact that players have been calling this ultimate 'crappy', it deals 1000-3000 unmitigated damage to 10+ enemies in the area. Simply, you can't use damage from ultimate to fill the bar solely because of how powerful some of them are.

 

I think to make this system works, there must be different modifiers for each type of damage. imo, modifiers should be based on how 'risky' is the maneuver. Certain combat style, melee, is about putting yourself in front of the enemies and risk dying thus it should have the best modifier (however, there are exception like Glaive and that boomerang).

 

Personally, I'm against damaging ultimates solely because of scaling problem. Many forumers have been defending this system like it's a good system which far from truth. It generates bad behavior, it goes against the design of the game, and it doesn't scale well with future difficulty. I enjoy utility powers more than damaging ones due to the fact that it works against the AI regardless of level. I support DE's direction in the recent Rhino stomp change and other team-based buffing powers.

 

Well, I hope DE will do something about this matter since the nightmare mode will make the scaling problem even more apparent.

[-BELLUM-]

Problem with power damage is that some powers are really devastating. For example : Bladestrom - despite the fact that players have been calling this ultimate 'crappy', it deals 1000-3000 unmitigated damage to 10+ enemies in the area. Simply, you can't use damage from ultimate to fill the bar solely because of how powerful some of them are.

 

I think to make this system works, there must be different modifiers for each type of damage. imo, modifiers should be based on how 'risky' is the maneuver. Certain combat style, melee, is about putting yourself in front of the enemies and risk dying thus it should have the best modifier (however, there are exception like Glaive and that boomerang).

 

Personally, I'm against damaging ultimates solely because of scaling problem. Many forumers have been defending this system like it's a good system which far from truth. It generates bad behavior, it goes against the design of the game, and it doesn't scale well with future difficulty. I enjoy utility powers more than damaging ones due to the fact that it works against the AI regardless of level. I support DE's direction in the recent Rhino stomp change and other team-based buffing powers.

 

Well, I hope DE will do something about this matter since the nightmare mode will make the scaling problem even more apparent.

Remember....the frames are changing....recently mag, rhino, and volt have received a buff for their ultimates to keep up with "god tier" warframe types like Vauban.

 

Dont gimp the majority of players if you have a problem with the powers systems...also....adapt you play style to get around this....and be patient.... I've used Rhino for example, since he was a god like with Ironskin, was nerfed, and till now....But i endured and stayed patient, I didn't feel the need to exploit this point to bring others down.

 

So if you're using a frame and you got a problem with the capabilities of others that you see....don't fret you will have your time to get a boost..... and with more updates the fairness in challenge will come on a silver platter.

Edited July 9, 2013 by -BELLUM-

[neKroMancer]

Remember....the frames are changing....recently mag, rhino, and volt have received a buff for their ultimates to keep up with "god tier" warframe types like Vauban.

Dont gimp the majority of players if you have a problem with the powers systems...also....adapt you play style to get around this....and be patient.... I've used Rhino for example, since he was a god like with Ironskin, was nerfed, and till now....But i endured and stayed patient, I didn't feel the need to exploit this point to bring others down.

So if you're using a frame and you got a problem with the capabilities of others that you see....don't fret you will have your time to get a boost..... and with more updates the fairness in challenge will come on a silver platter.

Look like you don't even bother reading, why replying to a post which you didn't read? Your reply didn't even direct to my posts in this topic but rather to anyone who post against you.

You mad?

Edited July 9, 2013 by neKroMancer

[xection9]

Good day OP.

No.

[__Kanade__]

No, just no, just cause YOU don't like the idea of people using their ultimate ability doesn't mean you have the right to call nerf. If YOU don't want to use your ultimate ability then don't put it on your frame, boom everyone's happy and the fat lady is singing. 

 

And also, not every frame's 4 is the greatest, Excaliber's Slash Dash can clear a room faster than Radial Javelin because Radial Javelin is limited to how many enemies it can take out whereas Slash Dash kills everything in front of it, no matter how many enemies there are. Trinity's 4 for pure healing purposes, Ash's Bladestorm gets interupted many times by other players which makes it a somewhat useless ability, Shurikens are a nice alternative now that Ash throws 2 at once and homes in on targets and with max Streamline, Focus and Flow, you can kill more enemies with Shurikens than Bladestorm.

 

Lets not forget that weapons like the Gorgon, Supra, Boltor, Ogris, Flux Rfile, HEK, Strun, Boar and almost everyother weapon with high capacity magazines can clear out entire rooms faster then an Ultimate can, granted the two Ultimates that can clear out wholes room is Avalanche and Miasama when maxed out with Stretch since both of those ultimates aren't limited to how many enemies they can kill whereas Radial Javelin and Bladestorm are. And in defense missions, a Frost or Saryn with those maxed out mods and abilities can help you get through some very high and difficult waves of enemies.

[Carcharias]

1) : Bladestrom - deals 1000-3000 unmitigated damage to 10+ enemies in the area.

 

2) I think to make this system works, there must be different modifiers for each type of damage. imo, modifiers should be based on how 'risky' is the maneuver.

 

3) Personally, I'm against damaging ultimates solely because of scaling problem.

 

4) Well, I hope DE will do something about this matter since the nightmare mode will make the scaling problem even more apparent.

1) Any power with a flat number for damage is limited. It's just a matter of time (if you play high level) until it is almost worthless. That being said bladestorm is actually an example that can still be used high level because even if your targets aren't dead, you have done some damage with little to no risk to yourself (assuming you don't get interrupted) unlike many other ults. (sound quake, overcharge)

 

2) Opinion. No not the part about different modifiers, the risky part. How do you empirically measure the "risk"? You can literately argue back and forth all day long about the level of risk involved in comparing different ults.

 

3) Right now the scaling of powers is up to the player. (focus, continuity, streamline, stretch) And using those mods does make a noticeable difference. Will it be enough for what lies ahead? idk

 

4) Have to wait and see how bad this "nightmare" mode really is. I might end up agreeing with you before it's over.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Carcharias

[Dreiii]

you know how i stop them from getting tons of kills? i snipe with a lex. usually when its down to 3 enemies, they dont use an ult. a maxed out lex can clear a room rather fast, as could a gorgon, a strun, a boltor, hell, damn near any weapon can clear a room. if youre having trouble cleaning out the enemies, perhaps its time to look back at your weapons and reconsider your play style.

he is frustrared only because he is using a loki which cannot do the same thing,I think this guy hasnt gottentto a level 35+ defense on waves 20 above, ultimates are good when starting out defense sure you can leave at wave 5 - 10 -15 but why take fun away play until 25 atleast and he will realize that ults dont do much damage unless you've set your warframe to be that way ( modding ).

 

But if he has then i dont know why he is complaining getting to wave 40 is a hard thing to do, reached it like once or twice only with friends.

[-BELLUM-]

Look like you don't even bother reading, why replying to a post which you didn't read? Your reply didn't even direct to my posts in this topic but rather to anyone who post against you.

You mad?

Lol, we dont need to get the "you mad bro?" with he troll face included friend. I read your Post and while i do agree with some points with what you wrote ultimately i think you'll find satisfaction in what your asking for with time when changes to all the frames are complete.

 

It's okay man, Temper not included. Xp

Edited July 9, 2013 by -BELLUM-

[Tsukinoki]

1) You haven't addressed my issue of a large population of the players being unable to play on a regular basis.

 

2) What right do you have to take from mine if I worked on my warframe all day but can't get as many kills because you have a button to win when I prefer the more tactical side?

 

3) That wasn't even relevant to what you began to argue with. You mentioned that you didn't know the reason behind her nerf, and now you present it. I clearly stated that the nerf was something the community could definitely say was because it was indeed OP. And many consider it her ult due to how much more effective it is over her ult. 

 

4a) My opinion was supported with the growing Nyx player-base. And "I dont have any interest in Nyx even before they added a time limit to how long Chaos lasted."

That's also an opinion that provides no counter-argument to my claim.

 

4b) What players primarily used was Chaos spam on top of a system that was broken in endless defense. This does not deny the fact that this is still spam.

 

5) Again opinion backed with evidence that I'm not going to bring up. Go look up videos of high level endless defense farming.

1) Contact lists still work. If you take the time and build a large enough contact list of like minded players then there is an incredibly high chance that more often than not you'll have at least one person who is on that you can play with.

2) And what 'right' do you have to any of the mobs? Is your ego so fragile that you need to see the most kills in order to feel good about yourself? The numbers at the end of the mission mean NOTHING. It doesnt matter if I killed 250 and you killed 100, as long as you stayed with your group you got the same experience and everything. I never pay attention to those numbers because its stupid.

Or are you the person to get upset when someone has 60% of the damage and 110% accuracy (split chamber mods ftw) and you have 40% damage and 60% accuracy?

3)I never mentioned anything about Nyx's chaos, you're referring to another persons post there. Second I provided the reason that they nerfed Chaos because you didn't know. Simple as that. And in a conversation where we are talking about their number 4 powers, please dont bring in a number 3 ability. It doesn't matter if the community thinks its her ult, because its not.

And absorb can deal a ton more damage a hell of a lot faster in a much larger area if the 3 other people shoot it with fully modded heks. And you dont have to worry about chaos stealing your precious kill counts because you can shoot them while they shoot each other.

4a) If your opinion can provide a big enough point backed with little evidence (we see a big upsurge in the usage of a frame whenever they first add it into the game, simply because its new) then I can counter your opinion with my own.

4b) So what? In chaos you still have to kill most of the enemies while they shoot at each other, still shoot at you, and shoot at the cryopod. Again you dont have to worry about that stealing you kill count. Hek, all of the enemy damage and kills during Chaos aren't given to to the Nyx who used it meaning that if they spammed Chaos the whole mission their damage could be 1% and kills in the low teens.

5) SO you're bringing in high level defense farming, which is the current end game. Where most ultimates die off very quickly and cant kill anything past wave 40 or so. If you watch any videos of actual high wave defense farming, please count how many times ults were used and actually killed the enemies.

Now, since that is the endgame something like that HAS to be balanced around. You cant just cry "NERF NERF NERF" to a system when you are leaving out the entirety of the endgame in your considerations of why it needs a nerf, and not even thinking of trying to balance around it in your changes.

[SmallPaws]

Problem with power damage is that some powers are really devastating. For example : Bladestrom - despite the fact that players have been calling this ultimate 'crappy', it deals 1000-3000 unmitigated damage to 10+ enemies in the area. Simply, you can't use damage from ultimate to fill the bar solely because of how powerful some of them are.

 

I think to make this system works, there must be different modifiers for each type of damage. imo, modifiers should be based on how 'risky' is the maneuver. Certain combat style, melee, is about putting yourself in front of the enemies and risk dying thus it should have the best modifier (however, there are exception like Glaive and that boomerang).

 

Personally, I'm against damaging ultimates solely because of scaling problem. Many forumers have been defending this system like it's a good system which far from truth. It generates bad behavior, it goes against the design of the game, and it doesn't scale well with future difficulty. I enjoy utility powers more than damaging ones due to the fact that it works against the AI regardless of level. I support DE's direction in the recent Rhino stomp change and other team-based buffing powers.

 

Well, I hope DE will do something about this matter since the nightmare mode will make the scaling problem even more apparent.

 

 

Many points about the ult's lack of utility here. The damage scaling is improper, promotes bad gameplay, not fitting to the game overall. I really don't see a reason to defend such a system and yet players still argue for the sake of "coolness", "I do what I want go find your own game," "Form groups, pugs are outdated or inviable," "Run solo." I don't see the promotion of Co-op at all in these arguments. I believe that if a game is to be thoroughly co-op, random players would have reason to play fairly rather than ult spam rush without consideration of others.

[SmallPaws]

5) SO you're bringing in high level defense farming, which is the current end game. Where most ultimates die off very quickly and cant kill anything past wave 40 or so. If you watch any videos of actual high wave defense farming, please count how many times ults were used and actually killed the enemies.

Now, since that is the endgame something like that HAS to be balanced around. You cant just cry "NERF NERF NERF" to a system when you are leaving out the entirety of the endgame in your considerations of why it needs a nerf, and not even thinking of trying to balance around it in your changes.

 

I'm not leaving out endgame out of my considerations, but for the most part content from beginning to endgame is still a large portion of the game itself. Ult scaling is improper the way it is.

 

Since you suggest I am leaving endgame out of consideration, how about you consider lower-leveled content and how newer or slower players would feel about those ults ruining their enjoyment of the game?

 

And don't start up with the contact list idea. I've already mentioned that a pug should be next to viable to a formed party if not equal to one as an option for most to play by.

Edited July 9, 2013 by SmallPaws

[Misilo]

im a speed melee focused player (excalibur) and i barely use my powers, mostly i cut everything before someone get in middle and clean all with his/her ultimate hehe...

[SmallPaws]

4b) So what? In chaos you still have to kill most of the enemies while they shoot at each other, still shoot at you, and shoot at the cryopod. Again you dont have to worry about that stealing you kill count. Hek, all of the enemy damage and kills during Chaos aren't given to to the Nyx who used it meaning that if they spammed Chaos the whole mission their damage could be 1% and kills in the low teens.

 

 

Okay, now expand that argument onto other warframe ults. Nyx's Chaos is a great skill in warframe in terms of ultility on par with Rhino's stomp and Vauban's abilities. I'd even say Banshee's SQ is a even a decent utility ability, but most that do plain outright damage with the highest amount of skill being minor nerve impulses to move a finger with enough pressure to press a button is not mentally engaging or actively stimulating in this sort of a game.

[ApeMummy]

if you think pressing 4 kills everything, you aren't playing high level enemies.

[.Fyr.]

lol..how about xini wave 10++
u r the antz.. :3

[gell]

I read through most of this thread... what I gather is that we may not all agree on what the ultimate's purpose is. Should it be useful at all levels? Is it okay to have an ult that is only good for mid to low levels, but not super high levels? Is a get out of jail free card a good ability at all?

 

Because of the varied answers to these questions, I think this thread could go on forever. Whatever DE's answers are though, I hope they make the game fit their vision.

 

I personally feel that a damage focused ult that doesn't do damage on much higher waves is partly game design flaw, but also may be acceptable when clearing out enemies would just be too powerful. To that end, however, all ults should then have some form of utility. e.g. Banshee's Earthquake, while useless for damage at higher defense waves, still stuns all the enemies around and lets your team take them out in safety. No, it's no Bastille or Chaos, but those are also less about your frame doing damage and more about utility (although Chaos may be a great example of the perfect ult, one that is both utility and pretty damaging at all levels). At lower levels, an ult that kills everything is ok to have, but they need to make the ult less damaging sooner. It can be used on basically any planet and any mission aside from the high endless defense waves, and doesn't create much in terms of interesting abilities. Some folks might be ok with this, but I am guessing those are the same folks who are cool with not using any tactics, and love to farm one boss 500 times for a random drop. The brain requires stimulation or you won't feel entertainment.