General Forum Toxicity...

[Roachester]

Guys, guys, guys.

 

 

[_-Malicious-Melodi-_]

6 minutes ago, Sirabot said:

How'd you know I was a dev? lol kidding. kidding.

Edit: Oh wait, was that toxic? I was just being pretentious and playful. It's just bad right now because of the hour and the work load. Topics will be back to being locked in no time

I thought you were going to the hype thread...

Just now, Genitive said:

Is it about this thread?

 

Because, you know, you haven't been the most polite person there and got yourself dragged into an argument. 

 

Looking down on people like that is not too polite.

 

You talk about being respectful but you yourself seem desperate to prove your opinion better than the others. Or you are just mad that someone disagrees with you. By making threads like that you only add to the toxicity.

 

/inb4lock

Differing opinions are one thing... however, being constantly accused of something i am not is another. I have every right to defend myself. And that's not looking down on someone... I am a legitimate Game developer... albeit, a bit between jobs at the moment, but i do have my degree and i do use the knowledge i have in the attempt to better this game. Politeness is subjective... self defense is not.

[Sirabot]

5 minutes ago, PureIcarus said:

I thought you were going to the hype thread...

I was but everyone is just talking about being sleepy and fighting to stay awake. It's a major buzz kill over there lol

Edit: Also, I'm sorry if I was coming off as condescending. it's the mode i go into during a debate of any kind. I turn into a keyboard warrior of the highest order. Disagreements and debates are frustrating by nature after all
 

Edited July 8, 2016 by Sirabot

[_-Malicious-Melodi-_]

7 minutes ago, Lijka said:

How come you start a thread about forum toxicity, where you're as much at fault? I assume it's because of @Pratigious's thread, where, I am sorry to say, you weren't exactly polite at all times. The fact that majority of the people that took part in this thread disagreed with OP's and your notion does not add credibility to your post here.

This thread is about the fact that EVERY time i go on the forums now, im met with people on full offensive, or people who simply wish to deface a thread they don't agree with... Sure... that thread got a bit out of hand, however, i was defending myself against 2 people who had every intention to attack me at every turn. I was simply showing my support for the OP... i apologize to anyone who may have got caught in the cross fire. 

2 minutes ago, Sirabot said:

I was but everyone is just talking about being sleepy and fighting to stay awake. It's a major buzz kill over there lol

Edit: Also, I'm sorry if I was coming off as condescending. it's the mode i go into during a debate of any kind. I turn into a keyboard warrior of the highest order.
 

Im not sure if that's irony or Karma.

Im also sorry for how heated things got... i am very passionate about Warframe, iv been here since the real beta 3-4 years ago. To see where its going now is upsetting.

Edited July 8, 2016 by PureIcarus

[ArcticMantis]

I have to say that the comments on this topic are a perfect example of what OP is trying to say. Many comments are "attacking" by arguing about specific things OP said in his topic and other places. At the same time disregarding his general point.

Neither does it matter if % of toxicity has changed or if OP has been around long enough to know.

I agree with his general point: many posts on the forums turn toxic and I don't like it either.

Edited July 8, 2016 by ArcticMantis

[Azrael]

1 minute ago, PureIcarus said:

I thought you were going to the hype thread...

Differing opinions are one thing... however, being constantly accused of something i am not is another. I have every right to defend myself. And that's not looking down on someone... I am a legitimate Game developer... albeit, a bit between jobs at the moment, but i do have my degree and i do use the knowledge i have in the attempt to better this game. Politeness is subjective... self defense is not.

You know what I've never heard DE say? I've never heard them say "I know some people don't like this, but we all have degrees and understand how to make games better than you can possibly comprehend." It's cool that you have a degree, but it doesn't really have anything to do with any of these conversations. It certainly doesn't mean that your opinions matter more, or that it's okay to tell people "I know more than you can possibly comprehend".

[_-Malicious-Melodi-_]

1 minute ago, Lord_Azrael said:

You know what I've never heard DE say? I've never heard them say "I know some people don't like this, but we all have degrees and understand how to make games better than you can possibly comprehend." It's cool that you have a degree, but it doesn't really have anything to do with any of these conversations. It certainly doesn't mean that your opinions matter more, or that it's okay to tell people "I know more than you can possibly comprehend".

However, it does put me in a position to know what is and isn't possible as well as where their development philosophy is or should be taking them. Having studied game theory makes you see games in a different way than most people, what i said was a bit over the top, yes... however, the meaning remains. Game theory to me is philosophy, its poetic.

[Soketsu]

I will just ignore the fact that for you the player who enjoy the game as it is are generally wrong, it's like you don't have any other way to said you are in the right,( or you don't have the patience anymore) and this is a toxic behaviour to discussion.

 

I agree on the fact that the forum is more a battlefield between 2 factions than a place of discussion(, with some gods and their herald).

anyway, I'm not here to start another war, I will tell you a story you should already know since you're older than me on the game, but it's may the nostalgia who make you think like that, don't know.

This story will point out, according to me why we are here right now.

 

The game grow up, new player comes, buff are welcome, some oppose, other like to play with and don't bother to go on forum. Then nerf occured, after too many times, some people say on their alliance channel another nerf happened due to a guy who post a topic on it OR people start to asking why they get nerfed again, putting a content a content into underused/irrelevant/annoying state.

They got their answer, it's because not enough people was there in order to say "no" to nerf topics, since then many players who don't want nerf, come on the forum, and it will happen again any time DE apply a nerf. 

 

That why for example I'm here right now (and some of my alliance), because I know why some of the content was nerfed in a way who making them just annoying to play with, or putting them to the ground.

Be aware that I'm not against every nerf, if they allow to bring more content to come out, so be it, but most of time, I don't like the way that DE use.

[_-Malicious-Melodi-_]

Just now, Soketsu said:

I will just ignore the fact that for you the player who enjoy the game as it is are generally wrong, it's like you don't have any other way to said you are in the right,( or you don't have the patience anymore) and this is a toxic behaviour to discussion.

 

I agree on the fact that the forum is more a battlefield between 2 factions than a place of discussion(, with some gods and their herald).

anyway, I'm not here to start another war, I will tell you a story you should already know since you're older than me on the game, but it's may the nostalgia who make you think like that, don't know.

This story will point out, according to me why we are here right now.

 

The game grow up, new player comes, buff are welcome, some oppose, other like to play with and don't bother to go on forum. Then nerf occured, after too many times, some people say on their alliance channel another nerf happened due to a guy who post a topic on it OR people start to asking why they get nerfed again, putting a content a content into underused/irrelevant/annoying state.

They got their answer, it's because not enough people was there in order to say "no" to nerf topics, since then many players who don't want nerf, come on the forum, and it will happen again any time DE apply a nerf. 

 

That why for example I'm here right now (and some of my alliance), because I know why some of the content was nerfed in a way who making them just annoying to play with, or putting them to the ground.

Be aware that I'm not against every nerf, if they allow to bring more content to come out, so be it, but most of time, I don't like the way that DE use.

The point about players who defend warframe that hard being generally wrong is very accurate and not toxic... no game is perfect. No game will ever be perfect.. and to defend one like it is, thats a fools error.

[Sirabot]

2 minutes ago, Soketsu said:

Be aware that I'm not against every nerf, if they allow to bring more content to come out, so be it, but most of time, I don't like the way that DE use.

Be nice if when DE nerfed things they didn't completely destroy it. Reduce the total damage by a few hundred or thousand points? Nope. Put that item in the grave. To be fair though, they did good by Excalibur with his last nerf. But still, DE nerfs are scary.

[Rekkou]

17 minutes ago, PureIcarus said:

You love to hunt people down and attack on sight, dont you.... THAT is antagonizing. What i was doing was a calculated response to the current projections of the game industry. Using current knowledge to provide an accurate prediction of a games outcome if it succumbs to a bad development system.

Not at all, just making sure people hear both side of the stories. Because yours seems to be very faked

[Yrveth]

4 minutes ago, PureIcarus said:

Differing opinions are one thing... however, being constantly accused of something i am not is another. I have every right to defend myself. And that's not looking down on someone... I am a legitimate Game developer... albeit, a bit between jobs at the moment, but i do have my degree and i do use the knowledge i have in the attempt to better this game. Politeness is subjective... self defense is not.

Isn't that the leading cause of toxicity? Everyone thinks they are right because they have some credibility... as a legitimate Game developer... as a legitimate Game player... as a legitimate Person with a Brain on the internet... free of the shackles of politeness due to being Right, on the internet, and having every right to engage in vicious self defence against the accusations of those who are Less Right :)

There's not much the devs can do to alleviate the situation. Forum staff could. You could check in the staff replies tracker what threads attract forum staff attention, and what are the measures usually taken. Now imagine what would happen if the same were to be applied to everything you deem toxic, and the amount of work that would be required from unpaid volunteers. But I feel what you want is not actually a less toxic forum environment, based on this

55 minutes ago, PureIcarus said:

Listening to the players who have concerns about the game is far more effective than trying to develop things based on what people "like" because when it comes down to it, the people that find flaws are generally right, and the players who defend the game to their dieing breath are generally wrong.

I get the feeling that what you simply want is to have people (the devs in particular) to listen to you and admit you are right and develop the game according to your vision. The forum is probably not the right communication channel for this. Have you tried applying for a job with DE?

[Lijka]

4 minutes ago, PureIcarus said:

This thread is about the fact that EVERY time i go on the forums now, im met with people on full offensive, or people who simply wish to deface a thread they don't agree with... Sure... that thread got a bit out of hand, however, i was defending myself against 2 people who had every intention to attack me at every turn. I was simply showing my support for the OP... i apologize to anyone who may have got caught in the cross fire. 

In general, I agree with you. Especially threads on very subjective topics quickly come down to trading insults, completely not adding to the discussion. People are very emotional creatures, nothing we can do about that, as much as I wish some controlled their tempers better (myself included, I can go overt the top myself sometimes :/). However, I strongly believe it's topics like this, that are basicly a complaint against other users of the forum that create such toxicity. Especially if they appear right after a heated argument in a parallel thread. Saying you "were defending yourself against two people" here is as much as saying "X and Y" are toxic. No wonder at least one of those people you all but named also came here to in turn defend himself.

Do you see my point? Unintentionally you created a perfect ground for the very thing you made this topic against.

[Azrael]

Just now, PureIcarus said:

However, it does put me in a position to know what is and isn't possible as well as where their development philosophy is or should be taking them. Having studied game theory makes you see games in a different way than most people, what i said was a bit over the top, yes... however, the meaning remains. Game theory to me is philosophy, its poetic.

This I understand. Just remember this: you aren't the only one who sometimes gets slightly heated when worrying about something that matters to you. You've made some comments that were a bit over the top, so have I, so have many people. Just as you're a good guy who wants to help the game, so are we. We just disagree about how. Try to keep that in mind before declaring people "toxic."

And I promise you, I swear, honestly, I'm not chasing you around. I randomly saw the thread and wanted to respond, and then was like "oh, hello again." Just so you know, I don't have it in for you. Honest.  :)

And now, to bed. Hopefully.

[TeneliaStormbringer]

Nothing's personal until people make it personal. Responding to comments and opinions by slamming them down or some other passive-aggressive "inb4lock"-type of remark doesn't add anything constructive. If people truly had the intention to contribute to a dialogue, it would have been just that: A dialogue. Clarifying intentions and checking facts before jumping to any conclusions. Making snide comments and trying to get away with dismissive backhanded insults by passing them off as poor jokes doesn't help anything. It doesn't even help the speaker feel better afterwards.

While I'm not familiar with Warframe's community, I've seen much better results in Minecraft forums where posting suspensions and timed bans (even email or ip bans) were common. I'm very sure that the moderators will have a much more effective time employing that as a countermeasure to prevent certain individuals hijacking dialogues and turning them into outright flame wars.

[_-Malicious-Melodi-_]

2 minutes ago, Lijka said:

In general, I agree with you. Especially threads on very subjective topics quickly come down to trading insults, completely not adding to the discussion. People are very emotional creatures, nothing we can do about that, as much as I wish some controlled their tempers better (myself included, I can go overt the top myself sometimes :/). However, I strongly believe it's topics like this, that are basicly a complaint against other users of the forum that create such toxicity. Especially if they appear right after a heated argument in a parallel thread. Saying you "were defending yourself against two people" here is as much as saying "X and Y" are toxic. No wonder at least one of those people you all but named also came here to in turn defend himself.

Do you see my point? Unintentionally you created a perfect ground for the very thing you made this topic against.

I attempted to bring a very important point to the attention to the community... weather that has succeeded or not really is left to be judged... atleast on of the 2 people who was in the argument earlier has actually apologized since then. Sometimes providing a big picture as well as a separated outlet away from the main trigger can bring upon more change. 

 

6 minutes ago, Belgard said:

i get the feeling that what you simply want is to have people (the devs in particular) to listen to you and admit you are right and develop the game according to your vision. The forum is probably not the right communication channel for this. Have you tried applying for a job with DE?

Honestly... i would love for this to happen.... but i doubt it ever will... I have yet to see any indication at all that the developers really pay attention to the forums... There are never any developers responding to simple posts other than forum moderators... Many of the people posting ideas have great ideas... some of them not so great... and others nearly impossible to implement... however, some indication that the developers are actually looking at the forums, rather than using a middle man or ignoring them all together would go a long way in reassuring players like me.

[Vifany]

DONT READ THREAD @  ANSWER FAST
So, mr.PureIcarus I must say thou something. First of all so-called "toxicity" is  aftermath of so-called "community management" and attemps of building, again, so-called "healthy community". Prohibitionism, wich is quiet popular among todays formum managers and other kinds of moderators, is leads us to this "toxicity" wich is in point of fact just way to bypass restrictions of strong language and other types of emotional speak. Is about moderator blindness.
About concerns. Look at forum rules: Dev Bashing is Prohibited. Any kind of focused concerns or complains about game or development may be treated as dev bashing. Also this S#&$ is reason why forums crowded with fanboys that wants to see warframe as PvP Footbal simulater with robot characters. 
It is life, desu.

[Soketsu]

Just now, PureIcarus said:

The point about players who defend warframe that hard being generally wrong is very accurate and not toxic... no game is perfect. No game will ever be perfect.. and to defend one like it is, thats a fools error.

But you can't blame people for what they fear, DE do not lightly nerf content, most of the time, it's end up to killing something.

 

5 minutes ago, Sirabot said:

Be nice if when DE nerfed things they didn't completely destroy it. Reduce the total damage by a few hundred or thousand points? Nope. Put that item in the grave. To be fair though, they did good by Excalibur with his last nerf. But still, DE nerfs are scary.

Yes another reason of my presence here. Trinty bless nerf was correct, but I still not like the way :/

[_-Malicious-Melodi-_]

1 minute ago, Vifany said:

DONT READ THREAD @  ANSWER FAST
So, mr.PureIcarus I must say thou something. First of all so-called "toxicity" is  aftermath of so-called "community management" and attemps of building, again, so-called "healthy community". Prohibitionism, wich is quiet popular among todays formum managers and other kinds of moderators, is leads us to this "toxicity" wich is in point of fact just way to bypass restrictions of strong language and other types of emotional speak. Is about moderator blindness.
About concerns. Look at forum rules: Dev Bashing is Prohibited. Any kind of focused concerns or complains about game or development may be treated as dev bashing. Also this S#&$ is reason why forums crowded with fanboys that wants to see warframe as PvP Footbal simulater with robot characters. 
It is life, desu.

Dev Bashing and Dev Criticisim are 2 different things... dont try to twist a forum rule to sound like something its not.

[BBOTAA]

30 minutes ago, Genitive said:

You talk about being respectful but you yourself seem desperate to prove your opinion better than the others. Or you are just mad that someone disagrees with you. By making threads like that you only add to the toxicity.

 

/inb4lock

^

[Azrael]

2 minutes ago, PureIcarus said:

... I have yet to see any indication at all that the developers really pay attention to the forums...

A little bit ago, due to people asking for a way out of volt's speed buff, they changed it to a pickup. People complained on the forums, and they changed it back, this time with an option to opt out with a backflip. There you go, you are now reassured.

Sometimes it seems like you exaggerate a lot. Like, a lot. I think they may be part of why you keep getting into arguments with people. People who, I'd like to point out, you accused of thinking the game was "flawless."

[_-Malicious-Melodi-_]

2 minutes ago, BBOTAA said:

^

I never said i was perfect... and i can be attributed to a bit of toxicity from time to time.... and i admit my mistakes.... however, the forum is getting worse... and my feedback is that the moderators need to pay more attention to what real toxicity is.

 

2 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

A little bit ago, due to people asking for a way out of volt's speed buff, they changed it to a pickup. People complained on the forums, and they changed it back, this time with an option to opt out with a backflip. There you go, you are now reassured.

Sometimes it seems like you exaggerate a lot. Like, a lot. I think they may be part of why you keep getting into arguments with people. People who, I'd like to point out, you accused of thinking the game was "flawless."

The thing is... that was right after the change... they have a good tendency to fix things on content they JUST released. However, the content from U3 still needs fixes, the Sorties still need fixes, and hundreds of other threads for small things they could fix in a matter of minutes.... They never respond to those threads. 

[Vifany]

7 minutes ago, PureIcarus said:

Dev Bashing and Dev Criticisim

So, as this thread is about toxicity. Why do you here and not playing you beloved space footbal?

[_-Malicious-Melodi-_]

Just now, Vifany said:

So, as this thread is about toxicity. Why do you here and not playing you beloved space footbal?

First off, i don't like lunaro, never will. Secondly, I'm on the forums trying to get the developers attention to problems that have arisen due to a flawed development system. Ofc every time i turn around im attacked by someone else who disagrees... but the point is, i'm trying to get them to fix the game.

[Azrael]

8 minutes ago, Vifany said:

DONT READ THREAD @  ANSWER FAST
So, mr.PureIcarus I must say thou something. First of all so-called "toxicity" is  aftermath of so-called "community management" and attemps of building, again, so-called "healthy community". Prohibitionism, wich is quiet popular among todays formum managers and other kinds of moderators, is leads us to this "toxicity" wich is in point of fact just way to bypass restrictions of strong language and other types of emotional speak. Is about moderator blindness.
About concerns. Look at forum rules: Dev Bashing is Prohibited. Any kind of focused concerns or complains about game or development may be treated as dev bashing. Also this S#&$ is reason why forums crowded with fanboys that wants to see warframe as PvP Footbal simulater with robot characters. 
It is life, desu.

I don't think I understand what you mean. Prohibitionism? Huh? Why do restrictions on language cause toxicity? This, uh, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why "don't read thread?"

 

8 minutes ago, PureIcarus said:

Dev Bashing and Dev Criticisim are 2 different things... dont try to twist a forum rule to sound like something its not.

Gotta agree with @purelcarus here, I'm not seeing any dev bashing in this thread.