How To Effectively Nerf Kunai/despair Without Removing Its Appeal.

[Aspari]

Here are the problems with the Kunai weapons:

 

1. 220 kunai is way too much.

 

2. High firing rate and perfect accuracy for a ridiculously strong stealth weapon. No reason to use a Paris/Dread with these things around.

 

 

How to effectively nerf the Kunai:

 

1. Lower the ammo count from 220 to 170. Increase the reload speed by .5 seconds.

 

2. Require the kunai user to charge the weapon like the user has to charge the Paris. The longer it's charged for, the more damage it deals (up to a cap.)

 

3. Increase the travel speed of the kunai by 150% but lower its effective range by 50% so that it can only be used for close and mid-range combat.

 

Edit: 2 is x'd out due to the realization that this was a stupid suggestion anyway.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Aspari

[DAwGi]

I like the idea.  Kunai are a bit OP right now.

[Namacyst]

Better nerf Acrid.

[ChaotikDreamz]

No and no.

 

The kunai /despair do not need nerfed period if anything just give them more shot arc to reduce their range.

 

Nerfing the DMG in anyway defeats their purpose  of stealth and defeats my purpose of farming tens of thousands mods/cores and spending millions to achieve maxed hornet strike alone.

 

Next limiting the ammo would again ruin their play style as they pretty much are a persons primary when combined with the bows.

 

Nerfing their ACC would also kill them into nothing. As they are not 100% accurate. Let alone their travel time you have to lead a charger almost 2inches of lead just to hit them.

 

Kills me everyone crying nerf when any secondary with a crit build and maxed hornet strike can easily pass them.

Edited June 19, 2013 by ChaotikDreamz

[Mazikeen]

The only thing about Kunai that bugs me is the ability to snipe with a thrown weapon (just have to compensate for gravity by aiming higher).

 

A damage drop-off (like shotguns) would seem more adapted.

[Shockness]

NO

[Dasmir]

better buff the AI

[Aspari]

No and no.

 

The kunai /despair do not need nerfed period if anything just give them more shot arc to reduce their range.

 

Nerfing the DMG in anyway defeats their purpose  of stealth and defeats my purpose of farming tens of thousands mods/cores and spending millions to achieve maxed hornet strike alone.

 

Next limiting the ammo would again ruin their play style as they pretty much are a persons primary when combined with the bows.

 

Nerfing their ACC would also kill them into nothing. As they are not 100% accurate. Let alone their travel time you have to lead a charger almost 2inches of lead just to hit them.

 

Kills me everyone crying nerf when any secondary with a crit build and maxed hornet strike can easily pass them.

I highly doubt you read the post at all.

 

220 kunai is way too much ammo period.

 

Kunai being a secondary weapon and completely outdoing the Paris/Dread is a huge powercreep, especially since they can one-shot the enemies worth stealth killing anyway and be thrown very quickly. Bows need to be drawn back to do massive and even on bigger enemies the Kunai are still going to out DPS the bow in every scenario. I've done extensive tests on both weapons unmodded and both with maxed damage amp mods + maxed armor piercing mods + maxed multishot mods + maxed critical chance + maxed critical damage chance. Despair's numbers weren't as high as the Dreads on one hit alone but the kunai really makes a mockery out of the bow

 

No accuracy nerfs were called for in this post.

 

No damage nerfs were called for either.

[Shockness]

I highly doubt you read the post at all.

 

220 kunai is way too much ammo period.

 

Kunai being a secondary weapon and completely outdoing the Paris/Dread is a huge powercreep, especially since they can one-shot the enemies worth stealth killing anyway and be thrown very quickly. Bows need to be drawn back to do massive and even on bigger enemies the Kunai are still going to out DPS the bow in every scenario. I've done extensive tests on both weapons unmodded and both with maxed damage amp mods + maxed armor piercing mods + maxed multishot mods + maxed critical chance + maxed critical damage chance. Despair's numbers weren't as high as the Dreads on one hit alone but the kunai really makes a mockery out of the bow

 

No accuracy nerfs were called for in this post.

 

No damage nerfs were called for either.

I easily run out of ammo 

[ChaotikDreamz]

I highly doubt you read the post at all.

 

220 kunai is way too much ammo period.

 

Kunai being a secondary weapon and completely outdoing the Paris/Dread is a huge powercreep, especially since they can one-shot the enemies worth stealth killing anyway and be thrown very quickly. Bows need to be drawn back to do massive and even on bigger enemies the Kunai are still going to out DPS the bow in every scenario. I've done extensive tests on both weapons unmodded and both with maxed damage amp mods + maxed armor piercing mods + maxed multishot mods + maxed critical chance + maxed critical damage chance. Despair's numbers weren't as high as the Dreads on one hit alone but the kunai really makes a mockery out of the bow

 

No accuracy nerfs were called for in this post.

 

No damage nerfs were called for either.

 

You should read your own post you never state 220 ammo as your nerf. You just simply state "220 kunai is way to much" Specialy considering Kuai and despair only start with 210 ammo pool. Taken hornet strike maxes at 220% dmg increase. Next Despairs won't be as high as dread's on infested as despair take a 50% dmg reduction hit to light infested and dread does 3x the damage to infested. Go take your dread to grineer and rethink how viable the despair are to saving your arse. Kunai have armor ignore period they do straight dmg to everything hence their lower dmg compaired to the despair and their stagger.

 

 

 my acc comment refeers to this "High firing rate and perfect accuracy for a ridiculously strong stealth weapon" Stating to you the kunai DO NOT HAVE 100% ACC.

 

Get your own facts straight before saying someone didn't read your post thank you.

 

Again no nerfs are needing just a lil more tweaking of their thrown arc would put them in line.

Edited June 19, 2013 by ChaotikDreamz

[Skeloton]

No to the ammo but ive posted the 2nd one in a couple of threads myself.

[LazyKnight]

Mob scaling is what needs to be changed first, since it is the 1# issue causing ALL weapon balance problem.

 

There are currently only 5 useable sidearm in game and most of them are the twins weapon, the 1 handers are all useless in comparison to other weapons. All the dual sidearm can achieve similar damage per second levels within a close margin on level 50 NPC.  This does count any new lab weapon because they are unfinished and will likely be changed.

 

The problem with Kunai and despair is how DE handled NPC resistance scaling. Past level 80 only armor ignore/armor piercing retain full killing power were all the other weapons turn into Nerf guns.  With 84 mod points most of the primary weapons can scale to higher damage levels but are ruined because of the double mitigation of effective life given to NPC.

Edited June 19, 2013 by LazyKnight

[ShAd0wF1AmE]

The only reasonable nerf ideas I've heard are:

1) Give throwing weapons their own ammo pool, something with roughly 100 shots in the reserve.

2) Take away Kunai/Despair's 2nd V polarity.

I would also understand a decrease in damage, but at that point you're messing with the feel of one of the funnest weapons in the game. No thank you, I only use them on Ash to feel like a ninja anyways.

[Aspari]

You should read your own post you never state 220 ammo as your nerf. You just simply state "220 kunai is way to much" Specialy considering Kuai and despair only start with 210 ammo pool. Taken hornet strike maxes at 220% dmg increase. Next Despairs won't be as high as dread's on infested as despair take a 50% dmg reduction hit to light infested and dread does 3x the damage to infested. Go take your dread to grineer and rethink how viable the despair are to saving your arse. Kunai have armor ignore period they do straight dmg to everything hence their lower dmg compaired to the despair and their stagger.

 

 

 my acc comment refeers to this "High firing rate and perfect accuracy for a ridiculously strong stealth weapon" Stating to you the kunai DO NOT HAVE 100% ACC.

 

Get your own facts straight before saying someone didn't read your post thank you.

 

Again no nerfs are needing just a lil more tweaking of their thrown arc would put them in line.

10/210 ammo on the Despair and the Kunai. That means a total of 220 kunais. I also stated "1. Make the ammo system for the Kunai be like Paris. No clip. 70 kunai should be enough since it runs on pistol ammo and you get 20 kunai per pick-up." He didn't read my post and you obviously didn't either. Sure, the Despair has reduced damage on infested but that's hardly a balancing point about despair. They're still out DPS the bows in Grineer and Corpus missions.

 

I'm completely fine with the damage stat of 55 on the Despair but there's no reason for it to literally be better than the Dread or the Kunai better than the Paris in most every situation that's not infested.

[Vehemex]

No and no.

 

The kunai /despair do not need nerfed period if anything just give them more shot arc to reduce their range.

 

Nerfing the DMG in anyway defeats their purpose  of stealth and defeats my purpose of farming tens of thousands mods/cores and spending millions to achieve maxed hornet strike alone.

 

Next limiting the ammo would again ruin their play style as they pretty much are a persons primary when combined with the bows.

 

Nerfing their ACC would also kill them into nothing. As they are not 100% accurate. Let alone their travel time you have to lead a charger almost 2inches of lead just to hit them.

 

Kills me everyone crying nerf when any secondary with a crit build and maxed hornet strike can easily pass them.

as despair/kunai is a secondary wep, it should feel like a secondary wep, you state yourself that its "pretty much primary if used with bow" doesnt that defeat the purpose of it being a secondary wepon?

Edited June 19, 2013 by Vehemex

[ChaotikDreamz]

Their not better the only reason as of now they are better is for the simple reason they can be thrown 2 million miles with the right over hold. Making the arc be more of a drop off as something that was thrown would put them in range and perfect use. That would leave you yoru bow for long range and throwning knives for short to mid.

 

 

Now giving them more arc would kill off there super long range ability unless someone like me feels the need to figure out the arc for dropping daggers in like gernades. No need to nerf anything but tweak the arc.

 

@Shadowflame -
2) Take away Kunai/Despair's 2nd V polarity. <<<< what point would this serve other then make one use another forma.

 

@vehemex - No it's not your primary it's your secondary but your primary for CQB pretty much meaning warframe doesn't present more as of now other then a few maps for long range. So secardy steps in as primary. This goes really for all secondaries. I barely use my primary period.

Edited June 19, 2013 by ChaotikDreamz

[Xoxile]

I don't see a problem with people using kunai as a main weapon. When I first started I used Aklato as a main weapon for a long time.

[Aspari]

I don't see a problem with people using kunai as a main weapon. When I first started I used Aklato as a main weapon for a long time.

I don't see a problem with that either. The thing with kunai is how it's a major powercreep to the bows.

[LazyKnight]

I don't see a problem with that either. The thing with kunai is how it's a major powercreep to the bows.

Bows and sniper rifles are useless for this game's play style. Even if a sniper weapon was the only available weapon it doesn't fit the requirements of ANY mission in game. If your issue is with how the bows are useless make a new topic about how to fix them. Sniper weapons in this game are some of the worst weapon in any game I have ever played because of the exaggerated reloading and charging times on stock weapons.

 

The sniper weapons class have no use in this game. A Latron/Braton is functionally superior to ALL the sniper ammo using weapons.  This is not even debatable, this game is all close to medium range at no point for any mission is the distance great enough to even require a scope for accuracy.

Edited June 19, 2013 by LazyKnight

[fatfree]

Here are the problems with the Kunai weapons:

 

1. 220 kunai is way too much.

 

2. High firing rate and perfect accuracy for a ridiculously strong stealth weapon. No reason to use a Paris/Dread with these things around.

 

 

How to effectively nerf the Kunai:

 

1. Make the ammo system for the Kunai be like Paris. No clip. 70 kunai should be enough since it runs on pistol ammo and you get 20 kunai per pick-up.

 

2. Require the kunai user to charge the weapon like the user has to charge the Paris. The longer it's charged for, the more damage it deals (up to a cap.)

 

 

I partially disagree on the ammo, but 220 is indeed too much. Maybe a good intermediary value like 150 would be more appropriate.

 

I completely disagree on the charge, it completely goes against the point of the weapon (speed and power), and makes no sense.... why would you charge throwing knives? You're not trying to nerf Kunai down to the bows' level, you're trying to turn them into bows (seriously, think about your suggestions, you're making them identical).

 

I agree with some of the other posts, decrease the Kunai/Despair's effectiveness at long range, do this by increasing the arc/fall-off.

Edited June 19, 2013 by fatfree

[Aishi]

You know, you just suggested to make the Kunai a Paris.

You said:
- Removing the Kunai clip, to make it like the Paris
- Force it to charge, to make it like the Paris

And you're getting upvotes for this? Come on.

[LazyKnight]

Yeah, the OP wants anther useless bow weapon for some reason.

[BenHoliday]

 my acc comment refeers to this "High firing rate and perfect accuracy for a ridiculously strong stealth weapon" Stating to you the kunai DO NOT HAVE 100% ACC.

 

Technically, they are 100% precise, while accuracy is determined by whether or not they hit the intended target. This means that accuracy in the technical sense is based on how the player handles the weapon, but since the weapon is so precise a skilled player can lead a target to offset travel time and raise his aim to offset the throwing arc. So while you may be technically correct, the fact that the Kunai are 100% precise and do not have recoil makes them, in the parlance of the game, 100% accurate.

 

But while I don't support these two changes, I do believe that the Kunai ARE too powerful. The only things I can't kill with a single knife even in the void or pluto missions are either heavy units (so far none need a full 10, though I haven't tried t3 void or waves >25 in defense) or shield ospreys (who do not always travel in a predictable pattern, and so usually require a few knives thrown to get a single hit for a kill.) Obviously I can't always kill moving targets with a single knife, but most targets move predictably enough to get a hit with three or less, and that means even considering the travel time and throwing arc they still have an extremely high ammo efficiency, .

 

I would say #1 would actually be an improvement to the Kunai, because their ammo economy is such that 70 knives is more than enough except for a couple high level bosses, and removing the reload speed would let me unload them much faster against that boss, increasing DPS. While I do agree that you never run out of knives, that is because ammo packs return 20 knives, not because you can hold 220 of them.

 

As for suggestion #2, it would completely change the weapon. I'd rather see the Kunai be a bit less precise, which would do a lot more to make them limited in range because the arc and travel time can be compensated for unless they are cranked up to ridiculous proportions, which could make the weapon unusable even at close range. But I suppose we'll see if and how they decide to nerf the Kunai.

Edited June 19, 2013 by BenHoliday

[modded]

Just make them semiautomatic with a (highish) RoF cap.

[GingerGoth]

Kunai definitely need a max amo decrease, as well as clip size (maybe just 2, one for each hand?).  Giving them a charge time as some have suggested puts them too close to being bows.  Damage son dispair/kunai should definitely NOT be nerfed, as they are stealth weapons and need to kill things quickly, limitting factors should be fire rate/amo capacity, not damage.