De: Please Improve The Dodge Maneuver (Redesign Suggestions In Op)

[ValhaHazred]

....but his point is that yes, dodges might become more useful than certain powers for warframes that are currently weaksauce...but that's a problem due to the warframes being weaksauce.

If certain warframes being weaksauce becomes no longer true, then obviously his point won't apply...and neither might yours, since you're both working off the current crop of weaksauce warframes.

What I meant was, the dodges won't overshadow the powers of the weaker frames because they are getting improved anyway.

We agree! :)

[Sherbniz]

I like this!

More mobility with moves themed fitting to each Warframe, that even add some awesome functionality!

I would like this very much!

[Stinker]

Are you really complaining about a dodge move being ineffective against oncoming bullets?

 

I can agree the dodge moves suck in this game. But slapping in invincibility frames is most definitely NOT the answer.

Plenty of games that have good dodge moves don't use invincibility frames. Guild Wars, Neverwinter Online, Terra, etc are NOT good examples of good dodge moves in a video game.

 

I do not want to see specialized dodge moves on a per frame basis before I want to see a vast amount of other things improved. I'd like to see a decent dodge move to replace the current ones we have, but I don't want special nonsense for each frame until a lot of other things have been given attention. Particularly because I know that the amount of work required to do as you beg is astronomical.

 

The other reason I don't want to see invincibility moves in a SHOOTING GAME. Is because it is a SHOOTING GAME. I used to get mad as it was playing call of dookie when my shots didn't register because of lag. Now you wanna have it in a shooting game on purpose? You don't dodge bullets. This isn't the matrix. You/we are not albert wesker.

 

 

For you see, anything dealing with invincibility causes video game developers to get a -5 to their Competent Video Game Development checks.

Ha, cute, but no. I didn't mean to insinuate that all dodge moves should not have invincibility frames. I've seen many a game where they are well used. Particularly Vindictus. But in a shooting game? hell no.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Stinker

[MJ12]

Are you really complaining about a dodge move being ineffective against oncoming bullets?

Yes, I'm complaining that in a game where the vast majority of attackers use rapid-fire ranged weaponry the dodge move, which is presumably intended to allow you to avoid the majority of attacks, is ineffective against those attacks. This shouldn't happen. If it's supposed to only work against a minority of attacks, get rid of it and make it a QTE when those attacks happen. "Press X to dodge".

I can agree the dodge moves suck in this game. But slapping in invincibility frames is most definitely NOT the answer.
Plenty of games that have good dodge moves don't use invincibility frames. Guild Wars, Neverwinter Online, Terra, etc are NOT good examples of good dodge moves in a video game.

Yes, those games also have enemies using very slow, telegraphed attacks that come at you at a fairly slow velocity, which means they might as well make you invincible. This is very important. If Grineer or Corpus shot single slow bullets that flew at you at half the speed of a Dera shot, the dodge move wouldn't need any invincibility frames. But they don't. They shoot dozens of shots per second in extended bursts, and the Grineer have hitscan weapons. This means that a dodge practically needs invincibility to be effective.

I do not want to see specialized dodge moves on a per frame basis before I want to see a vast amount of other things improved. I'd like to see a decent dodge move to replace the current ones we have, but I don't want special nonsense for each frame until a lot of other things have been given attention. Particularly because I know that the amount of work required to do as you beg is astronomical.

How astronomical would the work really be? The animations are already there, for the most part. Ash/Loki's teleport animation. The end-wallrun animation. Volt's Speed. Backflips and acrobatic leaps away from objects. Sonic boom's animation for Banshee. The Overheat model for Ember and how it fades away. Rhino's charge for, say, Frost. The work here is a lot less than you'd think, given that there's so many effects that largely can be reused and they clearly need to put in more animations anyways for better transitions.

The other reason I don't want to see invincibility moves in a SHOOTING GAME. Is because it is a SHOOTING GAME. I used to get mad as it was playing call of dookie when my shots didn't register because of lag. Now you wanna have it in a shooting game on purpose? You don't dodge bullets. This isn't the matrix. You/we are not albert wesker.

Man what. Are you bringing up 'realism' when you have guys who can, very explicitly, block bullets? Dodging bullets is way easier than blocking them. You kind of are capable of doing things the guys in the Matrix were, or Albert Wesker is.

Ha, cute, but no. I'm didn't mean to insinuate that all dodge moves should not have invincibility frames. I've seen many a game where they are well used. Particularly Vindictus. But in a shooting game? hell no.

Vanquish is possibly the best designed third person shooter I have ever had the chance to play, and part of this is because it actually gives you a dodge move that's worthwhile due to having invincibility frames. ME3's dodges have invincibility frames and integrate into combat very well precisely because of it. Meanwhile, games with dodges that lack invincibility frames... end up making those dodges useless, nine times out of 10. Because they always have enemies with hitscan and/or non-telegraphed attacks that make those dodges useless.

This is just another "I hate invincibility frames for the sake of hating invincibility frames". You could give enemy AI specific responses to dodges where they spray wildly and fail to hit, which you'd then need to program into every single AI script, then you'd need to create various other workarounds...

or you could just give them invincibility frames. The latter is way simpler. Edited July 1, 2013 by MJ12

[RealityMachina]

The other reason I don't want to see invincibility moves in a SHOOTING GAME. Is because it is a SHOOTING GAME. I used to get mad as it was playing call of dookie when my shots didn't register because of lag. Now you wanna have it in a shooting game on purpose? You don't dodge bullets. This isn't the matrix. You/we are not albert wesker.

 

Question:

Why are you using your problems about unintended invincibility in a modern military shooter in a PVP context and comparing that to an intended brief invincibility feature in a PvE context in a game about space ninjas optionally using space magic to kick the asses of evil clones, evil robots, and evil zombies?

[Stinker]

To block bullets is one thing (not talking about melee blocking. Blocking bullets with a sword deadpool style is just stupid outside of comic books/movies), to dodge them is a whole different thing entirely. To dodge a standard bullet that is already in motion while you are not requires reflexes and speed that would insinuate that your character is far more powerful than would be enjoyable for the current state of the game. Teleporting away is plenty believable as it's instantaneous magic use of shenanigans, but for everyone to just have that innate speed and reflexes is quite literally game breaking. Not only that, but we wouldn't be allowed to use what our characters are quite obviously capable of the rest of the game if it turns out to be limited to a 'dodge' move.

 

Just because the grineer have as you put it 'hitscan' (which is pretty realistic for the cqb anyway, waste of resources to introduce realism for how close this game is atm and that level of realism can really cut into the fun factor anyway.) doesn't mean the grineer have to be able to track with perfect precision. I'm not saying they do or don't, I honestly haven't paid much attention, but a dodge move would be made much more effective if the grineer had to 'react' and 'track' a target. Sudden movement isn't much of a problem for someone that's say alert or focused, but a huge problem for someone that's lax, scared, arrogant, etc. It'd be cool if they could introduce such things and give enemies a 'mood' for which such things can be affected into a game of space ninjas imho but that's a different thread entirely. Yeah, got a bit carried away with thoughts on AI improvements.

 

 

Question:

Why are you using your problems about unintended invincibility in a modern military shooter in a PVP context and comparing that to an intended brief invincibility feature in a PvE context in a game about space ninjas optionally using space magic to kick the asses of evil clones, evil robots, and evil zombies?

Was meant to illustrate how stupid it feels. The feeling of bullets not registering in Children's Online Daycare was the closest example I could think of at the time.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Stinker

[Kyte]

Dude blocking a bullet needs faster and more precise reflexes than dodging.

 

And your suggestion is basically a complete rehaul of the AI into something more complex (and therefore buggy and resource-consuming) for minimal reward.

[Liminal]

Okay. That is "$%& amazing: those frame-by-frame dodge moves have my vote.
They might be more powerful than the devs intend a dodge maneuver to be, but even if they were slightly less useful I'd seriously like the idea of frame-specific evasive moves that actually work.

[RealityMachina]

To block bullets is one thing, to dodge them is a whole different thing entirely. To dodge a standard bullet that is already in motion while you are not requires reflexes and speed that would insinuate that your character is far more powerful than would be enjoyable for the current state of the game. Teleporting away is plenty believable as it's instantaneous magic use of shenanigans, but for everyone to just have that innate speed and reflexes is quite literally game breaking. Not only that, but we wouldn't be allowed to use what our characters are quite obviously capable of the rest of the game if it turns out to be limited to a 'dodge' move.

 

So basically being able to use melee weapons and swing them fast enough to deflect bullets is not SoD breaking for you, but moving one's body fast enough so it's not in the path of the bullets is SoD breaking for you.

I think I may have to surrender this argument, if only because I have no idea how to argue with someone clearly divorced from logic like you.

Edited July 1, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Stinker]

So basically being able to use melee weapons and swing them fast enough to deflect bullets is not SoD breaking for you, but moving one's body fast enough so it's not in the path of the bullets is SoD breaking for you.

 

I think I may have to surrender this argument, if only because I have no idea how to argue with someone clearly divorced from logic like you.

I completely forgot the game even had melee weapon blocking. I genuinely thought we were talking about stuff like volt's shield, rhino's armor thing, snow globe, and the like.

 

I think the melee weapon blocking bullets is stupid too. It's a movie and comic book gimmick at best. Unless you're deadpool. Cause deadpool.

 

also, do you really have to lay insults onto everything you have to say? Jesus christ dude.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Stinker

[Tempera]

To block bullets is one thing, to dodge them is a whole different thing entirely. 

Okay, I have a question for you.

 

What do you think the purpose of the dodge animation currently is?

 

Because the sentiment you are expressing is that the dodge mechanic is entirely useless in a third-person shooter.

 

(The rest of you argument is so silly that I will not even address it.)

[Stinker]

I have no qualms with a dodge mechanic in a third person shooter. Use it to get in/out of cover, move a short distance quickly and a bit more silently than running would, last ditch effort to avoid a slower projectile like a rocket/grenade.

 

I think a dodge move has a lot of use in gunplay games. Particularly in the stealth department.

 

The current dodge animation doesn't really do much. I've tried to use it a few times to escape the middle of a bunch of infested but it just tends to get stuck on enemies. So, not much.

 

And yes, I realize my argument seems quite silly given that I'd completely spaced that melee blocking was even a thing and that it was actually what 'blocking' meant on this forum. For that confusion, I apologize.

[Kyte]

I think the melee weapon blocking bullets is stupid too. It's a movie and comic book gimmick at best. Unless you're deadpool. Cause deadpool.

 

Dude Tenno are comic/movie-level characters. That's the entire point. Badass Space Ninjas.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Kyte

[PositronicSpleen]

Lost Planet 2 was a third-person shooter with an emphasis on team work that had dodge rolls with invulnerability frames. It worked well there.

 

In Warframe, the roll stinks. Adding invulnerability frames and new animations would be nice, but I'm not sure I like the idea of complicating things with unique effects and a downright bizarre cooldown system. Dodge rolls shouldn't be spammable, they should have more vulnerability frames than invulnerability frames, demanding precision to be used correctly. I have yet to see a game with dodge rolls that did not follow this approach. If someone can continuously dodge through automatic weapons and still somehow achieve their objective, either they're really good or the roll was just has too many i-frames. I would expect it to be used for evading rollers, heavy ground-pounds, ancients, etc. But being able to use dodges to tackle enemies would be neat, I admit.

 

 

Also, I just wanted to say that UT2004 dodging wasn't useless. Good players could chain dodges, and especially wall-jumps, in a way that would make a Loki feel slow and Grineer Rollers seem like immobile bricks. But the same kind of dodging wouldn't work in Warframe for a variety of reasons, I just needed to point that out.

[Kyte]

It's not bizarre. You spam the dodge, dodge becomes less effective. Let it rest, it resets back to full power. Simple.

[MJ12]

Lost Planet 2 was a third-person shooter with an emphasis on team work that had dodge rolls with invulnerability frames. It worked well there.

 

In Warframe, the roll stinks. Adding invulnerability frames and new animations would be nice, but I'm not sure I like the idea of complicating things with unique effects and a downright bizarre cooldown system. Dodge rolls shouldn't be spammable, they should have more vulnerability frames than invulnerability frames, demanding precision to be used correctly. I have yet to see a game with dodge rolls that did not follow this approach. If someone can continuously dodge through automatic weapons and still somehow achieve their objective, either they're really good or the roll was just has too many i-frames. I would expect it to be used for evading rollers, heavy ground-pounds, ancients, etc. But being able to use dodges to tackle enemies would be neat, I admit.

 

 

Also, I just wanted to say that UT2004 dodging wasn't useless. Good players could chain dodges, and especially wall-jumps, in a way that would make a Loki feel slow and Grineer Rollers seem like immobile bricks. But the same kind of dodging wouldn't work in Warframe for a variety of reasons, I just needed to point that out.

 

The cooldown system was heavily inspired by Vanquish, wherein Platinum used it to provide a disincentive dodge spamming. Basically, consecutive dodging reduced the invulnerability period in your dodge until you take a break from dodging. This allows for the dodge to be initially very powerful but degrade in capability if used repeatedly, which rewards skillful use of it much more.

 

It's a mechanic that I think is really good and games with invulnerability mechanics should make use of it (diminishing returns on invulnerability spamming) more often.

[Kyte]

Diminishing returns on any spamming is generally a good idea.

[ValhaHazred]

@Stinker.

The "Flash Step" is a pretty common feature of Sci-fi and Fantasy Ninjas. It would be a shame to not use it here.

And bullet dodgers are pretty common in sci-fi video games.

F.E.A.R's Pointman, Max Payne, the PC of Timeshift, Mass Effect Soldiers, Raiden, the guy from Vanquish, Xcom Assaults and tons more I'm sure. That was just off the top of my head.

[Mak_Gohae]

This sounds like a new attack rather than a dodge.

Anyway, we have regenerating shields on top of health which really don't need to have an extra move that grant invulnerability.

And on top of all of that we move fast enough with mods or sliding to get away and avoid damage.

[MJ12]

This sounds like a new attack rather than a dodge.

 

The point of some dodges having enemy debuffs chained into them, or attacks (like how Raiden in MGR:R has a dodge which also counterattacks the enemy) is to add personality to the dodges instead of making them one-size-fits all, adding additional uniqueness to the Warframes. If you don't allow dodging to have some offensive or mobility-based elements there's only so many kinds of dodge you can have. (i.e. ME3 MP, which has basically 'dodgeroll' and 'teleport').

 

Anyway, we have regenerating shields on top of health which really don't need to have an extra move that grant invulnerability.

 

Regenerating shields don't regenerate in combat when taking damage, and thus end up encouraging hiding behind boxes, which is approximately the least ninja-like kind of gameplay. Furthermore, "regenerating health" doesn't actually mean invulnerability frames are inherently bad. Note again that Vanquish has regenerating health and also dodges with invulnerability frames. Yes, you're right, you don't "need" them, but you also don't need to be playing a videogame. If you talk about "need" nothing in this game, let alone the game itself, is even slightly necesssary.

 

And on top of all of that we move fast enough with mods or sliding to get away and avoid damage.

 

Irrelevant. The dodge move exists. It should be useful. Mods are supposed to be ancillary functions, not things that you need for core gameplay functionality.

 

Furthermore, you're kind of wrong. Sliding/sprinting doesn't prevent damage. It lets you disengage faster, but that's entirely different from actually evading damage.

[Mak_Gohae]

Regenerating shields don't regenerate in combat when taking damage, and thus end up encouraging hiding behind boxes, which is approximately the least ninja-like kind of gameplay.

 

Put on Fast Deflection and all you need is a second without being hit to get your shield back.

 

Furthermore, "regenerating health" doesn't actually mean invulnerability frames are inherently bad. Note again that Vanquish has regenerating health and also dodges with invulnerability frames.

 

Does Vanquish also have shield on top of the health and several attacks that can help in avoiding damage?

 

Yes, you're right, you don't "need" them, but you also don't need to be playing a videogame. If you talk about "need" nothing in this game, let alone the game itself, is even slightly necesssary.

 

What does this have to do with anything?

 

 

Irrelevant. The dodge move exists. It should be useful.

 

It is useful, but you are suggesting it to be a required move for extra bonuses.

 

Mods are supposed to be ancillary functions, not things that you need for core gameplay functionality.

 

I think that was only used as excuse for the health and shield stats butI dont know how this can be said for the rest.

 

Furthermore, you're kind of wrong. Sliding/sprinting doesn't prevent damage. It lets you disengage faster, but that's entirely different from actually evading damage.

 

How does sliding/jumping around to evade damage not considered evading damage?

[Tempera]

Put on Fast Deflection and all you need is a second without being hit to get your shield back.

 

[snip]

 

I think that was only used as excuse for the health and shield stats butI dont know how this can be said for the rest.

The developers can't rely on people using X, Y and Z mods. A player who plays Ash may not bother with Deflection/Fast Deflection because the primary purpose of that frame is to avoid getting hit, for instance. Similarly, a player who plays Ember may use Deflection and Vitality, but they will not grab Fast Deflection because they can instead go for Flow, Continuity, Stretch, and so on, to extend the duration of Ember's abilities.

 

These are all valid methods of play, but they do not rely upon using a set of mods that uses Fast Deflection.

 

As such, mods are an ancillary item. The developers can rely on people using mods, yes, but they cannot rely on the players using specific mods that encourage the players to play in a specific way. Furthermore, they would not want to, as that would reduce game variety.

 

Thus, mods are not supposed to be needed for core gameplay functionality. They should be completely optional, simply allowing the player more versatility in play. (Not that DE is very good at this; there are certain mods that you simply need to get the best out of your weapons, such as Serration/Hornet Strike.)

 

How does sliding/jumping around to evade damage not considered evading damage?

Simple; those are movement mechanics that are simply being used for damage avoidance purposes- and used badly, at that.

 

Sprinting/jumping are primarily movement mechanics that can be adapted (poorly) for damage evasion/avoidance purposes. A dodge roll's primary function is damage evasion/avoidance; mobility comes in a distant second.

 

 

It is useful, but you are suggesting it to be a required move for extra bonuses.

And, my primary complaint: Rolling in this game is simply not useful.

 

It is not very much faster than simply moving. Jumping out of the way is roughly as fast, with the benefit that you can also convert the jump into grabbing onto an object. It has no invincibility frames, meaning it's worthless for use against high-damage attacks when the only way to dodge them is to move fast; you can simply sprint through the attack area. You cannot use it to avoid being stunned, or knocked down.

 

It's worthless as a game mechanic as it currently stands. Thus, the developers should either get rid of the ability entirely, or change it so that it is actually useful. And as I dislike removing mechanics when they can be made useful, I will vote for changing it so that it is useful.

[MJ12]

Put on Fast Deflection and all you need is a second without being hit to get your shield back.

 

Again, a Warframe without mods should perfectly encompass the default style of play. Going "if you use a mod you can play the game like it's being advertised, a fast-paced shooter where you don't need cover" kind of... proves the point? Which is the entire reason evasion or damage mitigation moves that don't involve cover need buffs. Generally major ones.

 

Does Vanquish also have shield on top of the health and several attacks that can help in avoiding damage?

 

"Shield on top of the health" is actually irrelevant. Because 100% of your effective health in Vanquish regenerates, versus (in the case of Warframes like Saryn) 25%. And yes, it has several attacks that help in avoiding damage. There are a ton of ways to avoid damage in Vanquish, which is important because it proves that doing so does not instantly make a game 'no-skill'.

 

What does this have to do with anything?

 

It has to do with the low quality of your counterargument, which is "you don't need it", a terrible argument when we're talking about videogames. You don't need to play Warframe, so why bother posting? Why bother playing? You could get a job and make money! You need money to live comfortably. It's a stupid argument that something is 'unnecessary' in a video game because by definition video games are unnecessary.

 

It is useful, but you are suggesting it to be a required move for extra bonuses.

 

No, it really isn't. The only thing it's useful for is getting away from Infested Chargers, which "walk backwards" does approximately as well.

 

I think that was only used as excuse for the health and shield stats butI dont know how this can be said for the rest.

 

Fact is, "avoid damage" is a core gameplay function. With the post Update 7 increases to enemy lethality, you can no longer tank shots on high level worlds, which means that suddenly what seemed like dodge being effective turns out to be an illusory placebo effect, that existed due to the fact that enemy damage was fairly low to begin with. You shouldn't have to equip mods on a Warframe to avoid damage. In my experience, Loki was more survivable than Rhino. Why?

 

Because Loki's very high speed (twice Rhino's!) allowed him to avoid damage from Corpus attacks and Infested very easily (while Rhino just had to eat it to the face), which meant that even though he had way less HP and shields he was effectively way tougher. This is what happens when you make a core gameplay mechanic require mods for a Warframe.

 

How does sliding/jumping around to evade damage not considered evading damage?

 

Because that's a mobility mechanic, a movement mechanic, used poorly for evading damage, whereas you should have a dedicated move for avoiding damage. Something like... a dodge move? Also, because they're really bad at it. Enemies still can track you pretty easily while 'sliding/jumping around', which is most visible when fighting the Grineer who have hitscan weapons. If enemies are to be lethal enough that you can have 'challenging content', like people demand, without frustrating fake difficulty, you need effective tools to avoid damage.

 

Tools which we completely lack.

[RealityMachina]

I completely forgot the game even had melee weapon blocking. I genuinely thought we were talking about stuff like volt's shield, rhino's armor thing, snow globe, and the like.

 

I think the melee weapon blocking bullets is stupid too. It's a movie and comic book gimmick at best. Unless you're deadpool. Cause deadpool.

 

also, do you really have to lay insults onto everything you have to say? Jesus christ dude.

Yes, because you have yet to say something actually remotely smart.

 

I mean, as Kyte put it:

 

Dude Tenno are comic/movie-level characters. That's the entire point. Badass Space Ninjas.

Like, I'm really confused why so many people like you are attracted to a game like Warframe in a first place, if you and others don't like the badass space ninja concept and seem to want to just play badass space marines. A co-op PVE 4 person squad game for badass space marines (and others) already exists. It's called ME3 MP. Play that instead of trying to ruin my badass space ninja game.

[Xievie]

YES! TAKE ALL OF MY UPVOTES!

Just watch, we'll be speedrunning the Four Kings, Ornstien and Smough, and Lord Geyn with these roll buffs.