The Future Of Warframe As I See It, Hear Me Out Devs!

[bustertheruler]

Just a quick thought to you warframe developers out there. First off, fantastic job with this game. The first 50 or so hours of gameplay were some of the most blissful in recent memory. The problem is, and I have encountered this a lot talking to people in global chat that after you max out that starter warframe, get the one you've always wanted, whats left? I got frost, and ever since he was about level 10 I have been able to mow down any enemy almost one shoting them with my potato gun (with the exception of t3 void missions, those are actually great fun). I have found the only decently satisfactory levels at my level of power are the way high defense missions, and there's gotta be more than that.

 

I think the overall goal of this game should be to at the very last get people to crack that 200 hour mark. The problem is, like i said I have kind of run out of content and I know that's just the nature of open-beta, it's always evolving. So here is my suggestion, I have been studying the success of games like this for a long long time. You gotta severely increase the difficulty. It is not fair for brand new players as they'll probably get decimated at first, but that's the fun!

 

If say jupiter was as hard as a t3 void mission, that means pluto would be INSANE. I like the idea of using forma to make my frost ultra destructive, but when I can destroy any enemy in the game without much contestion what's the point (with the exception of the t3 heavy gunners, seriously one of my favorite game enemies of all time, those dudes are rough at the highest level)? It's a pretty painstaking process to re-level to 30 every time you do that. So I think if you just increase the damage necessary to kill enemies in the whole galaxy, you would see ALOT more of that addiction factor to this masterpiece.

 

I played dungeon defenders for about 70 hours, I don't know if you're familiar but that is a spectacular game. The problem was, once I got to around level 74, the gap was HHHHHHHUGE to get to 78 which was the next plateau for getting good gear. The only level that was decent xp (much like Xini on Eris), I ran probably 200 times just to get to level 75 after that and after awhile it got kinda stale. I got to 78 eventually but never wanted to play the game again, the xp payoff from the hardest level was pathetic. With the structure, or "frame" (rim shot) you have in place with this game, I think making this game insanely difficult at the highest planets would really help your long term success. This would give people incentive to do a ridiculously hard mission in exchange for a nice xp payoff.

 

If you fight through say, 400 enemy exterminate Pluto Armageddon i dont think its unreasonable for say an unranked warframe to shoot to level 5. That gives people more incentive to use forma, continue to potato stuff, and essentially keep chasing the uncatchable dragon (yes that's a heroin reference, but I think you understand). This game has potential to be epically and long term addictive, it is an absolute shame to have its cap stay at around 50-70 hours.  I know you guys are working all the time and getting support from the community I just wanted to give my two cents.

 

I also think at some point maybe extending the level cap or something of that nature might be appropriate. You keep doing that, release more maps, more warframes, and this game will be a juggernaut. People should always have something they need to be farming or collecting, that's what takes this game from the shelf life of Far Cry 3 to World of Warcraft status. I have a friend that has seriously put over 1000 hours into WOW, you guys can get there.

 

[Xoxile]

WoW isn't successful because it's a good game. It's successful because it trapped a lot of people who dragged their friends into to get trapped as well.

Yes the game needs a higher difficulty towards the end, but adding more HP to enemies isn't adding difficulty.

[Venarge]

So you basically want that the enemies get harder so people would have to use forma, which is something that is pruchasable for real money or randomly dropped.
That would be the best way to create the biggest difference between the hardcore gamers and the casual gamers and destroy the whole community... I mean. Have you really thought about this like.... actually thinking about it

Edited June 30, 2013 by Venarge

[Turret_49]

So you want the game to turn into more of a giant Skinner Box?  No. Thank. You.  Also, padding out the game does not make it better.

[paul62626]

No thanks, don't pad out the game, make it worth playing. Not every game needs to be hard core. If you want that maybe a challege mode in solo that makes the whole game harder?

[FunkDoctaSpock]

We do need some more challenging levels though. Void 3 keys are rare and any solar system mission can be soloed easily once you have potatoed gear/warframe with the right mods. I haven't bought any forma yet and i got 5 already, so we can't really say forma is a pay only feature. My double formad boltor tears through anything already and wouldn't mind some incentive to put more forma in it other then high end defense ... i personally feel we need a new solar system which would start at the highest level of the actual one. New factions with new mobs/environments/challenges etc ... But i think we need to show some patience while in Beta as a whole lot of stuff is still cooking ;)

[bustertheruler]

Just stirring the pot my friends, this is how things happen! I relieze it's a total cop-out to say this game would reach it's full potential by simply making it significantly harder, it literally requires more content in general, but it's definitely part of the battle. I have been drudging through stuff the last couple of days trying to max out my frost and it hasn't been nearly as much fun as the original run with excalibur. The only real intensity I felt is when I did a t3 ext. with a couple guys last night and it was quite a fight. I just like that competition and i think you all can understand that. When I need rubido and can literally never stop running and just oneshot hip fire kill every enemy, that level has become meaningless.

 

For the record I have snagged 4 formas so far without spending a penny just running Xini and Alerts.

 

I think enemy variety and more punishing/strong/damaging enemies is really an important part of moving forward here. People like leveling up and getting better, you can contest that if you like but it's true. It is weird to play something as it's evolving, that's why no one here is really right or wrong, I just really want to see this game succeed because it's an absolute blast at its core. I like to think the devs actually read this stuff so please do tell me I'm in idiot if you think so, speak your mind. It takes this whole community to make a difference. FunkDoctaSpock you raise a great point that on top of difficulty, the variety in the actual objectives on missions is gonna be a big part of it too. In the end, it's always spray a bunch of enemies, activate some button, and run to extraction, obviously that's not enough.

 

Anyone got good ideas on new kinds of level types?

[FunkDoctaSpock]

I was actually thinking of a timed mission type where the warframes would have to split up to accomplish the mission and make it back in time . But for that we'd need mods and drops to be shared like credits are.  I'm not the biggest fan of timed missions but it would give an incentive to ninja your way through a parcour minded environment as swiftly as possible, putting those wallruns to some use. Just a quick idea really, i'm not the best at developing it all the way ;) 

[Juper0]

The devs are going to add a difficulty changer. this will allow casual gamers and hard cores to both keep their interest in the game without killing it for either (depending on the implementation). i think that making ammo and energy drops more rare, enemies faster, and adding more objectives to a mission would be good ideas. but that is just the first 30 seconds of thinking about it.

if and when a new faction is added, i hope they are a lot faster, like the tenno are fast. there are a lot of good ideas out there about new enemies: flying and ranged infested; gun mounts with heavy armor... so on and so forth. environmental modifiers (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/49002-environmental-modifiers-a-rework-ii/) would certainly be capable of adding difficulty without actually buffing the enemies (sometimes it might hurt the enemies).

one thing that gives a game HUGE replay value is achievements! things like getting 1,000 headshot kills with the Lato! or get 100 double kills with a snipetron (meaning you need to have puncture). hack 200/500/1,000 terminals. kill 10/25/50/100 enemies with a single warframe power. level up every type of mod to max. level up 1/5/10/15 warframes to max. level up 3/10/25/50 weapons to max. get 200/500/1,000 kills while wall running. complete 100/250/500 alerts. complete 10/25/50/75/100 missions in a 24 hour period. complete every mission. all of these would give some kind of credit reward as well as a profile badge and maybe really hard achievements even give an adornment on the warframe you play! the community (design council?) could come up with them giving that community built feel. some might even give rewards like Forma, reactors, and catalysts.

EDIT: oh yeah, and make it so that some tiles on the maps are actually trying to kill us on every tile set. not just the orokin set.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Juper0

[http404error]

Just stirring the pot my friends, this is how things happen! I relieze it's a total cop-out to say this game would reach it's full potential by simply making it significantly harder, it literally requires more content in general, but it's definitely part of the battle. I have been drudging through stuff the last couple of days trying to max out my frost and it hasn't been nearly as much fun as the original run with excalibur. The only real intensity I felt is when I did a t3 ext. with a couple guys last night and it was quite a fight. I just like that competition and i think you all can understand that. When I need rubido and can literally never stop running and just oneshot hip fire kill every enemy, that level has become meaningless.

 

For the record I have snagged 4 formas so far without spending a penny just running Xini and Alerts.

 

I think enemy variety and more punishing/strong/damaging enemies is really an important part of moving forward here. People like leveling up and getting better, you can contest that if you like but it's true. It is weird to play something as it's evolving, that's why no one here is really right or wrong, I just really want to see this game succeed because it's an absolute blast at its core. I like to think the devs actually read this stuff so please do tell me I'm in idiot if you think so, speak your mind. It takes this whole community to make a difference. FunkDoctaSpock you raise a great point that on top of difficulty, the variety in the actual objectives on missions is gonna be a big part of it too. In the end, it's always spray a bunch of enemies, activate some button, and run to extraction, obviously that's not enough.

 

Anyone got good ideas on new kinds of level types?

 

You deserve credit for being objective and insightful. I believe that each batch of new enemy types added has greatly improved the game as a whole. A lot of existing enemies need tweaking to be properly challenging while not merely a nuisance. Fortunately, this seems to be a priority of DE's, and they seem to be receptive to feedback about enemies. One thing I think really needs work is the XP ratios of enemy types.

 

Also, the addition of mods that allow you to specialize rather than just stack damage will help the endgame as well. I hope they realize that just adding damage is boring. Crit should be viable, Multishot should be less boring, other special effects are needed.

 

Sliding difficulty scale should make the game a lot more interesting as well. Fortunately, these things seem to all be on DE's plate (except interesting mods... they're not doing so hot at that yet).

[bustertheruler]

You know what I think would be cool in this game? A spell casting type of thing. I don't know if youve played kingdom of amalur the reckoning,its so badass. As the game and your character progresses, theres a big spell tree and the magic gets more epic and gruesome as you get better, its awesome. Anywho the powers are cool and all, but if you could customize that aspect a little more I think you could have the powers and so much more. I know its a shooter and its important to remember that but it just gives you another blueprint for a whole new player. Lots of dudes on rpgs like this love being the distance spell caster with low armor that devistates opponents. I think if you kinda bring this sci fi magic world a little more together, and not make it all lame, itd be awesome. Although it'd be funny I'm surely not suggesting you be able to cast "depression" but what about casting like haste on your squad and bullet damage being double for 20 secs, that'd be f******* awesome. Theyve already made this world really out there, why not let it fly.

[kgb_cyborg]

I know it's a million times more work, but glass cannon enemies with good squad-based AI, suggested elsewhere, would be sooooo much better than just scaling everything's hp and damage up.

 

In particular, AI can be a beast to get right. But! Enemies who work together, dependent on a chain of command (e.g. squad leaders), have more abilities and use them intelligently, e.g. throw up a shield while the squad medic heals their teammates and another unit switch teleports a warframe out of safety (Grineer Commanders - best), would not necessitate the insane hp and armour scaling currently in place. If the damage scaled well (with only moderate accompanying increases in effective health) this would be far better imo.

 

T3 Void just evokes memories of my entire squad wailing on mind-controlled heavy gunners with heavy melee weapons for 30 seconds of boredom.

[Venarge]

You know what I think would be cool in this game? A spell casting type of thing.

Please, we are not magicians.... besides that. every char is "casting" something...

 

Lots of dudes on rpgs like this love being the distance spell caster with low armor that devistates opponents.

You want more glass canon like chars... wow...

 

 

 

We once had skill trees and it made you god like. The system is great as it is. We will get more skills for our frames in the future.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Venarge

[Azure_Kytia]

Variety > Difficulty.

Having a wide variety of content easily accessible to users of all levels with varying rewards is key to these sorts of games. This also takes time.

[FractalMind]

Of all the games I have ever played, the ones that stick in my mind the most are the ones that were the most challenging. I would quite happily play through a storyline game on normal so I wouldn't be distracted and have the flow of narrative be broken by soul-crushingly difficult defeats. Some that stick in my mind are the Prince of Persia series, the God of War, also Alien Swarm although this has no real story to speak of, just excellent coop gameplay. I would enjoy the story then ramp up the difficulty. After many hours of playing and mastering all of the quirks and abilities of these games, I have completed them on the hardest difficulty settings.

(Edit: How could i have left out Shadow of the Colossus? All that time spent looking for white tailed geckos so I could improve my grip and beat the bosses on the hardest difficulty...)

 

It was the difficulty of these games on the hardest settings that gave me the longest time playing and the most enjoyable moments. Don't misunderstand me, there were moments of tearing at my hair (sometimes literally), yelling at the monitor, etc. However, the challenge of actually needing to combine all elements of the games in order to win led to mastery of the mechanics and the greatest sense of achievement.

 

Extending a game's life by simply cranking up the hp, dmg and numbers of mobs might seem to some a cop-out for increasing longevity, but when the underlying gameplay mechanics are "easy to learn, hard to master", this is a viable course of difficulty scaling. If all that's required is mashing a button for longer at higher difficulties then the game requires more depth of gameplay to make this scaling strategy viable.

 

I think that with the way Warframe is developing there is room to cater for the more hardcore gamers by giving them elite challenges. These don't even need to be rewarded with elite, unbalancing gear. Simply playing for the bragging rights of defeating the hardest available difficulty level of a certain map is enough to motivate these gamers, who play for the fun and the challenge rather than playing to collect everything. Warframe isn't Pokemon, collecting everything is a reasonable aim for some, but Warframe can offer so much more.

Edited July 1, 2013 by FractalMind

[Ced23Ric]

Moving to Gameplay Feedback.

[bustertheruler]

Please, we are not magicians.... besides that. every char is "casting" something...

 

You want more glass canon like chars... wow...

 

We once had skill trees and it made you god like. The system is great as it is. We will get more skills for our frames in the future.

 

In a word, yes, we should be magicians. I bet you really like Gears of War judging by that statement.  None of that nancy dungeon and dragons stuff. Im kidding,I don't deny I enjoy an endless bashing shooter of that nature where weapons and enemies just keep getting more powerful and you bruise harder and harder, but there's a cap. That's actually the thing I started to say when i started this thread but ive thought about it and theres so much more than that. On top of level variety, more enemies etc... it'd be nice to be able to carve up a giant group of enemies in an infinite amount of ways. If you have several options of how to kill enemies it never gets old. As it stands though WF is amazing but you either mow down an enemy with a machine gun, bow, or melee the crap out of them, and thats about it. The skills, some of em are alright, others are warframes I read about and just doesnt really blow my mind that much. In all honesty you could acquire all the warframes in probably a week, level them all to 30, and the game would end. But if you could have a level 99 excalibur, with all kinds of crazy customized skills and magic, on top of being able to blow the begeezes out of people with machine guns, man.... you have truly created a game thats never been done.

 

Good 3rd person combat skill heavy games are always based in medieval times and you have mythril dagger this and pristine bronze helm that, but this is futuristic ninja robot world. I would just like to have a way higher level of attachment to my excalibur and frost, really level them high and so overall be crushed at the thought of deleting one or just not being a stingey bastard and buying the platinum for a new slot. It just sucked last night when i 30'd my frost and thought, welp.... that's pretty much it. Skills/magic add that kinda depth that takes this from what it is (which is personally my favorite 3rd person shooter of all time) into this mega awesome ... I don't even know what to call it universe. But at its core its still about brutal melees and blowin dudes away. Increasing the ways that you can dispatch an enemy is definitely a huge step going forward, i really love frost's 'frost wave' and snowglobe is obviously sick, but more variety options of exactly what I do with that ice themed guy is what makes it  atleast for me. Getting specific body area equipment armor pickups, different kinds of helmets, outfits ,etc... That's what makes people love games IMO. Ask anyone, who doesnt think GTA San Andreas is the best one? The character is a blank canvas and you do whatever you want with him, buff bruiser guy, skinny fast guy, pimp suit, whatever... The further customization and capabilities  in all aspects of these bada** robots we slaughter weird infested aliens and space marines with would really drive the interest in this game. This isn't exactly for the Battlefield 3 crowd, its already pretty nerdy, and i love that.

Edited July 2, 2013 by bustertheruler

[Shadowcrusnik]

i agree that the game needs more content, but that's because it is still in BETA, the game isn't even complete yet, and look at everything it already has! New content is coming, this sort of thing is exactly why I PLAY betas, to see what coming, and help provide ideas and suggestions that can shape the future of the game!

 

The game needs more content, and that content is being given. Just you wait!

[Venarge]

Good 3rd person combat skill heavy games are always based in medieval times and you have mythril dagger this and pristine bronze helm that, but this is futuristic ninja robot world. I would just like to have a way higher level of attachment to my excalibur and frost, really level them high and so overall be crushed at the thought of deleting one or just not being a stingey bastard and buying the platinum for a new slot. It just sucked last night when i 30'd my frost and thought, welp.... that's pretty much it. Skills/magic add that kinda depth that takes this from what it is (which is personally my favorite 3rd person shooter of all time) into this mega awesome ... I don't even know what to call it universe. But at its core its still about brutal melees and blowin dudes away. Increasing the ways that you can dispatch an enemy is definitely a huge step going forward, i really love frost's 'frost wave' and snowglobe is obviously sick, but more variety options of exactly what I do with that ice themed guy is what makes it  atleast for me. Getting specific body area equipment armor pickups, different kinds of helmets, outfits ,etc... That's what makes people love games IMO. Ask anyone, who doesnt think GTA San Andreas is the best one? The character is a blank canvas and you do whatever you want with him, buff bruiser guy, skinny fast guy, pimp suit, whatever... The further customization and capabilities  in all aspects of these bada** robots we slaughter weird infested aliens and space marines with would really drive the interest in this game. This isn't exactly for the Battlefield 3 crowd, its already pretty nerdy, and i love that.

 

I think we shouldnt be wizards but well....

 

To the rest of your post:

I support this. There have to be more things to do after your char is lvl 30. More possibilities to make it unique / different from the others. But we are already on that way. We got forma and soon, we get frame attachments and new skills which give you a better feeling for you own frame =)

[Phoenix86]

Bullet sponges are not the solution (you can add a few here and there, but they must not be the core of your argument, which i totally agree)

 

The game needs more challanges for sure, but better add this through variety and enemy's mobility not bullet sponges.

On the other side they have to implement this WITHOUT using stunlocking or stuff that make the player unable to perform actions (which is even more BAD than bullet sponges!)

 

Stuff like rollers, scorpions and ancients are cool but too much disabling for the player... shield'ed lancers are ok for example, shield osphreys too!

It's a very hard work to figure out how to increase difficulty avoiding bullet sponges AND disabling tools...

 

I have faith

[Kaltfiur]

Personally, Of all the things in this game that could be truly labeled as Lacking? It's in the story, while a good deal of vague is fine, there are too many blanks everywhere. If 60% of a good game is immersion, then please take heart to those words :/ Expand the lore, add to the universe, give us a real campaign driving story to it, something to really sink our teeth into. We have the Factions, we have the Tenno, we have the Stalker, we have all these great little story elements, but they're just floating around in free space because the story thus far is a paragraph and a half long. "Some stuff happened, there aren't a ton of you guys left, these other guys? These dudes suck. Oooo yeah, forgot to mention, there's also a crazed tenno assassin hunting you at times. No real idea why, or even who, but he's there... so... watch out for him as well.

 

I'm sure, among the devs? You have at least one, probably several, talented writers who would probably love to hit this problem like it owed them money after insulting their waifu and keying their car 16 times before stealing their left shoe, so let em! Give this universe a history, a drive, give the Tenno a reason, the other factions? A motive, Stalker...? Probably just tasty hints left around, him being a mystery is half of the appeal! Heck! Seeing the stalker show up in a mission, after 130 hours of play time, is probably the one thing that slaps a stupid grin all over my face every time! If you polish out the story? Making new mission types, locations, frames, weapons, and factions, all becomes a matter of child's play, and the game explodes in scope.

 

As for actual gameplay? I think we need less work on warframes, and more thought to maps, areas, and factions. The weapons list is plenty big, though I think the primary side of things is a tad lacking, and the warframe list is huge when you factor in how long it takes to farm a frame piece by piece.

 

I've said my bit, made my opinion pretty clear I think, Warframe Devs.... Spin me a Tale...

[Xoxile]

snip

I can't help but think you just want World of Warframe. That's a problem you see, as Warframe is good at being Warframe. Nothing else. So let's try to come up with ways to improve Warframe, and not make it more like another game that you so happen to like.

[bustertheruler]

I can't help but think you just want World of Warframe. That's a problem you see, as Warframe is good at being Warframe. Nothing else. So let's try to come up with ways to improve Warframe, and not make it more like another game that you so happen to like.

Haha you know the irony is I actually hate WOW, I just like certain things about it. I shoulda used something I actually like to relate, but I was trying to think of the ideal "crack" type of game.

[Fleischkloppa]

imo not the old levels should get a raise in difficulty - I´d rather they make a new planet or 2 that´s extremely hardcore - you know, could be a devastated planet where there is all lava and S#&$ and the ground is all black and such with the most hardened veterans of the factions fighting there, so you would encounter very high level enemies.

[VER1]

Just posting this if it has not been said.

 

In the last live stream Steve talked about the 'hard' difficulty they have put into it for the the longer term players.

Whether this will come up in the eagerly awaited Update 9 who knows.