Armor And Shields.

[lZerul]

Now that they removed this bug, I'd like to discuss the merits of making it a feature.

 

The biggest thing I noticed when armor applied to shields is that the tankier frames (Frost and Rhino) actually felt, well, tanky.

 

This was a good thing in my opinion. With the existence of Forma, tank frames are completely dependent on their skills to actually stand out as frames that can absorb firepower. With Armor applying to shields I was able to notice the difference when playing the Volt and then swapping to the Rhino.

 

All frames are heavily dependent on their shields to absorb damage, and armor only applying to health effectively meant it was useless. Steel Fiber also effectively became a useless mod with this in mind, never being equipped by anyone who actually wanted to be efficient with their mod slots.

 

Armor on shields actually allowed for high armor frames to actually absorb some damage even at higher levels, while currently most frames are completely dependent on ways to bypass damage completely (Snow Globe, Invisibility, Decoy) to even last a wave against higher level enemies.

 

 

Tl:DR Bring back armor on shields, it was a good thing.

 

 

[modded]

+1

[SPiRALFACToR]

+1

 

for a couple days it felt really good playing saryn.

 

back to having my shields blown off in seconds now i suppose... 

[Symbiont71]

To be totally honest, to make this legit would mean that shields are of different types, say A, B, C etc, so that Frost and Rhino get A, which is a strong type of shield, with B and C going to other frames depending on their armor.

 

In this case, steel fiber is a must for tanky frames.

 

How i see it instead (and how it is atm) is that all frames use the same type of shields. Think of it as an equipped item that generates and regenerates the shield on the frame. It is not affected by the armor, it's simply energy from the warsuit. Once depleted, there you go, having your suit pierced by bullets.

 

Only now is steel fiber viable, but people take cover and regenerate shields when in this situation, so yeah, steel fiber sucks.

I like the A,B,C.. version better, but i think DE is going for the more realistic 2nd option.

 

What i suggest is a mod, just like steel fiber, which instead affects shields. I guess DE would consider this better than making the bug a feature.

 

But then again, tanky frames will have to continue not-using the feature which makes them tanky - armor.

 

It's all a back and forth thing, hope DE will do something about it.

[ShadowGhosting]

Seems DE just opened up another can of worms.

[NacaIcon]

To be totally honest, to make this legit would mean that shields are of different types, say A, B, C etc, so that Frost and Rhino get A, which is a strong type of shield, with B and C going to other frames depending on their armor.

 

In this case, steel fiber is a must for tanky frames.

 

How i see it instead (and how it is atm) is that all frames use the same type of shields. Think of it as an equipped item that generates and regenerates the shield on the frame. It is not affected by the armor, it's simply energy from the warsuit. Once depleted, there you go, having your suit pierced by bullets.

 

Only now is steel fiber viable, but people take cover and regenerate shields when in this situation, so yeah, steel fiber sucks.

I like the A,B,C.. version better, but i think DE is going for the more realistic 2nd option.

 

What i suggest is a mod, just like steel fiber, which instead affects shields. I guess DE would consider this better than making the bug a feature.

 

But then again, tanky frames will have to continue not-using the feature which makes them tanky - armor.

 

It's all a back and forth thing, hope DE will do something about it.

Instead of different type of shields, perhaps add a new value 'Shield Armor', or 'Shield Resistence'. Tougher warframes, like Rhino would have higher Shield Armor (which works similarly to Armor, but it only affects shields), while weaker warframes have lower Shield Armor. We could also make a mod (maybe 'Nanoweave'?) which boosts Shield Armor like Steel Fiber does normal Armor. SA wouldn't be anywhere near as powerful as normal armor though, so perhaps buff armor as well to maintain it's viability?

 

A mod that regens health (I know there's an artifact that does that, but stay with me here) could also help debunk the infinite supperiority of shields. So, say you're a Rhino with a ton of Health, Armor, and Health Regen, but crappy shields, but can still tank it out with the normal Super shield set-ups you normally see out there. These would require a lot of mod points, so you really can't invest in mobility or shields, or even item radar, but you remain very hard to kill (espechially when you're allied warframes are able to rip the enemy apart while you're soaking up the damage).

 

I think I ran off I little with this one...meh, thoughts?

 

Side note: I keep trying to call mods modes. *facepalm* Just felt like sharing that.

Edited July 8, 2013 by NacaIcon

[aucran]

I imagine Armor affecting Shields will return as more difficult content is released and groups get more benefit of someone out front tanking the majority of the damage.

 

Right now everything but high level endless defense all frames can run around taking damage while killing the enemies before the damage becomes a threat.

 

Eventually I'd like to see it where a Rhino, Frost or other tank class has to be the first person in the room and use a utility skill so the other members can get in there and work together using skills and guns to down the high threat targets...

[lostinrehab]

Honestly I agree with and I thought pretty much the same.

Another option is that they could just make when you equip steel fiber your armor effects shields. This would give the mod a much needed boost as it is worthless because who wants to take health damage. I rather play a frame that has the ability to avoid damage altogether like excal (radial blind), loki/ash (invis), Nyx ( mind control and or chaos), ember ( lol face tank overheat) etc.

small note I was actually looking forward to using saryn because shes been shelved because of what I said above.

Edited July 8, 2013 by lostinrehab

[TheHeraldXII]

Seems DE just opened up another can of worms.

Yup, the shield mechanics were fine, now everyone's power tripping. I admit that I kinda enjoyed playing an invincible Loki, but seriously, it was ridiculous. The balance of the game would need to be adjusted in a big way and then there'd be a massive gap between the durable and squishy 'frames. None of this is necessary, at most add a mod that gives shields 10 armour/rank.

[theangelbelow88]

I'm kinda against the idea that armor works on shields, for one it makes no sense and for two it makes stacking health even more worthless then it already is, shields are already everything in this game and that's a shame, what DE really needs to do is make health and armor worth using and not just against the infested and I also don't mean put more enemies that drain all your shield or/and that just bypass your shield, like toxics and disruptors...

Simple fix... for example, a mod that recovers 2.25% of your total health every 2 second, with health being able to regenerate at a steady pace it would make having a high health and armor pool worth wile and again this is just an example.

[theangelbelow88]

Yup, the shield mechanics were fine, now everyone's power tripping. I admit that I kinda enjoyed playing an invincible Loki, but seriously, it was ridiculous. The balance of the game would need to be adjusted in a big way and then there'd be a massive gap between the durable and squishy 'frames. None of this is necessary, at most add a mod that gives shields 10 armour/rank.

And people really need to remember it was a bug, not something DE wanted to implement but DE is probably going to have a mob of angry QQers wanting this to become a standard feature ether way...

[Sada_no_Fujin]

It was good.

[TheHeraldXII]

I'm kinda against the idea that armor works on shields, for one it makes no sense and for two it makes stacking health even more worthless then it already is, shields are already everything in this game and that's a shame, what DE really needs to do is make health and armor worth using and not just against the infested and I also don't mean put more enemies that drain all your shield or/and that just bypass your shield, like toxics and disruptors...

Simple fix... for example, a mod that recovers 2.25% of your total health every 2 second, with health being able to regenerate at a steady pace it would make having a high health and armor pool worth wile and again this is just an example.

Well, we really don't need health to become more useful, that's not the issue. Health is fine as it is.

Imagine your bank account right, your resources. You have 2 accounts, one is your standard account, one is your rainy day account, where you keep your savings "just in case". You keep a flat amount in the rainy day account so that you always have something to fall back on, refilling it later on if you happen to use some. The standar account is where your paycheck goes as such it is constantly refilled. Because your standard account is consistently replenished, most of your withdrawls come from there, but you try hard not to use your "rainy day" account because you might need it later.

That's the difference between health and shield. Health is there as a backup, for when things go wrong, shields do most of the work because they're easily replenished. Any resource that is easily replenished is going to be spent more often that one that isn't.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Another option is that they could just make when you equip steel fiber your armor effects shields. This would give the mod a much needed boost as it is worthless because who wants to take health damage.

You know, that would be great. It would make steel fiber worth bringing.

[theangelbelow88]

Well, we really don't need health to become more useful, that's not the issue. Health is fine as it is.

Imagine your bank account right, your resources. You have 2 accounts, one is your standard account, one is your rainy day account, where you keep your savings "just in case". You keep a flat amount in the rainy day account so that you always have something to fall back on, refilling it later on if you happen to use some. The standar account is where your paycheck goes as such it is constantly refilled. Because your standard account is consistently replenished, most of your withdrawls come from there, but you try hard not to use your "rainy day" account because you might need it later.

That's the difference between health and shield. Health is there as a backup, for when things go wrong, shields do most of the work because they're easily replenished. Any resource that is easily replenished is going to be spent more often that one that isn't.

Yes, I understand that but people never use steel fiber, as it feels like its taking up space for something that will be in affect at all times, not something that you might need, same goes for vitality and lets face it steel fiber is only good for some frames because if your armor is 10, 20... Its not going to be much when you add 110% more. People don't really care for mods that feel situational, when they can just have mods that are in affect at most, if not all the time.

 

And its a shame that mods like that would go to waste for being underrated and let's face it just not worth the points to use.

Edited July 8, 2013 by theangelbelow88

[Robotgedek]

Yes, I understand that but people never use steel fiber, as it feels like its taking up space for something that will be in affect at all times, not something that you might need, same goes for vitality and lets face it steel fiber is only good for some frames because if your armor is 10, 20... Its not going to be much when you add 110% more. People don't really care for mods that feel situational, when they can just have mods that are in affect at most, if not all the time.

 

And its a shame that mods like that would go to waste for being underrated and let's face it just not worth the points to use.

 

Isn't that the points? If armor affecting shield as well, tanky frame gonna need that mods to soak up the damage from enemy, while squishy frames can focus on increasing their ability damage potential since steel fiber does not do much for them.

[TheHeraldXII]

Yes, I understand that but people never use steel fiber, as it feels like its taking up space for something that will be in affect at all times, not something that you might need, same goes for vitality and lets face it steel fiber is only good for some frames because if your armor is 10, 20... Its not going to be much when you add 110% more. People don't really care for mods that feel situational, when they can just have mods that are in affect at most, if not all the time.

 

And its a shame that mods like that would go to waste for being underrated and let's face it just not worth the points to use.

Well, I use steel fibre, as does everyone I play with. Maybe you don't but that's the wonderful thing about building your Warframe, you can choose what you do or don't like. Maybe it's not worth it on every 'frame, I certainly don't use it on most 'frames but on your Saryns Rhinos and Frosts it's pretty danged good if you tend to overextend yourself playing aggressively.

[theangelbelow88]

Isn't that the points? If armor affecting shield as well, tanky frame gonna need that mods to soak up the damage from enemy, while squishy frames can focus on increasing their ability damage potential since steel fiber does not do much for them.

Yes but that makes no sense, shields do not go under your armor, they go over it, so how would that be affected by your armor? and shields are already really good with most being over 700 with a 400% plus mod and on top of that we have a 90% increase to regeneration mod, shields don't need anymore improvement. 

Well, I use steel fibre, as does everyone I play with. Maybe you don't but that's the wonderful thing about building your Warframe, you can choose what you do or don't like. Maybe it's not worth it on every 'frame, I certainly don't use it on most 'frames but on your Saryns Rhinos and Frosts it's pretty danged good if you tend to overextend yourself playing aggressively.

Yes, if your roll a more tank frame I can see you using steel fiber but that is only really 3 frames, and I wasn't just talking about myself, I see that for the most part people don't use steel fiber, and vitality and most frames have some sort of good defense skill to make up for those moments that you need a backup plan.

[Robotgedek]

When people use Frost or Rhino, they really should feel tanky. Right now, when you get pulled by scorpion, a bombard and dozen of lancer can kill you like everybody else. Tank should survive that. Because you're a tank ! 

Use Shade? whats the point being a tanky frame? disappear and let teammate get showered by bullets? it should be you, the tank.

 

Still, it might be too imbalanced and can be game breaking, cause now you really hard to kill having armor affecting shield. So, i say, how if the armor only give 50% effect to shield, and still full effect on health? i think its quite reasonable.

[Robotgedek]

Yes but that makes no sense, shields do not go under your armor, they go over it, so how would that be affected by your armor? and shields are already really good with most being over 700 with a 400% plus mod and on top of that we have a 90% increase to regeneration mod, shields don't need anymore improvement. 

Yes, if your roll a more tank frame I can see you using steel fiber but that is only really 3 frames, and I wasn't just talking about myself, I see that for the most part people don't use steel fiber, and vitality and most frames have some sort of good defense skill to make up for those moments that you need a backup plan.

 

We talking bout gameplay mechanic here, not just sense, but still fun too.

Lets say, if shield that all matter, there will be no different between Mag with full shield mods and Frost with full shield mods, and for sense, Frost that looks tougher than Mag should be able to standing soak up more damage, rather just running looking for cover like Mag did when shield depletes.

 

With armor affecting shield, they may have same amount of shield, but their role will be more specialized.

[theangelbelow88]

Well, without dragging this into a huge debate, I will remind everyone again it was a bug...
And I for one glad it got fix but that's just my opinion.

[NalkorRN]

Well, without dragging this into a huge debate, I will remind everyone again it was a bug...

And I for one glad it got fix but that's just my opinion.

I really wish they'd re-instate the downvote button, but nooooo, can't have anyone with potentially hurt feelings on the internet.

[lautalocos]

the only problem is that if you have a fully moded redirection, vitality and steel fiber, well, do i even have to say it?

[lZerul]

The entire point of my OP was to assert that the armor to shield thing was good, bug or not.

 

It allowed tanky frames to actually feel their armor being useful, which most certainly isn't the case normally.

 

As pointed out, when a tanky frame absorbs damage, they don't last even a second longer then a squishier frame with the same amount of shield. They both get shredded in seconds. Part of the reason infinite scaling defense is so desired (Snow Globe and the original Iron Skin) is because basic frame defense is almost non-existent past the earlier parts of the game.

 

To those arguing it would trivialize early game difficulty, I say this:

 

What early game difficulty? I could run around without Redirection and Vitality and burst down everything within seconds without difficulty on almost any frame. Early game will always be trivial in its current state, abilities are what keep frames alive right now, not their innate defenses.  It is the reason the current version of Iron Skin is basically god-mode in early game, and outright worthless in late game, it has no scaling, just like shields.

 

Even reduced armor on Shield would still offer at least some scaling, but as it stands there is no realistic difference in the durability between the Rhino/Frost (150 Armor) and Volt (10 Armor) without taking abilities into account. Note that both the Rhino and Frost pay for their armor with the slowest movement speed in the entire game.

 

As it stands, armor/health tanking is outright meaningless in this game.

[ShadowGhosting]

The entire point of my OP was to assert that the armor to shield thing was good, bug or not.

 

It allowed tanky frames to actually feel their armor being useful, which most certainly isn't the case normally.

 

As pointed out, when a tanky frame absorbs damage, they don't last even a second longer then a squishier frame with the same amount of shield. They both get shredded in seconds. Part of the reason infinite scaling defense is so desired (Snow Globe and the original Iron Skin) is because basic frame defense is almost non-existent past the earlier parts of the game.

 

To those arguing it would trivialize early game difficulty, I say this:

 

What early game difficulty? I could run around without Redirection and Vitality and burst down everything within seconds without difficulty on almost any frame. Early game will always be trivial in its current state, abilities are what keep frames alive right now, not their innate defenses.  It is the reason the current version of Iron Skin is basically god-mode in early game, and outright worthless in late game, it has no scaling, just like shields.

 

Even reduced armor on Shield would still offer at least some scaling, but as it stands there is no realistic difference in the durability between the Rhino/Frost (150 Armor) and Volt (10 Armor) without taking abilities into account. Note that both the Rhino and Frost pay for their armor with the slowest movement speed in the entire game.

 

As it stands, armor/health tanking is outright meaningless in this game.

 

I'll say that having armor effect shields would be a benefit to the general experience, just not in it's current setup. The only way I see it being implemented, is if DE decides to normalize armor ratios similar to how they normalized speed ratios across Warframes. I'm sure everyone can agree having armor play more of a crucial role, in the same vein as speed does now, would at least make the game more interesting.