Siglok - Grineer anti-material rifle

[IANOBW]

So I've been thinking about if we'll ever get a bolt-action rifle in Warframe, since the release of those Twin Rogga dual flintlock pistols that the Kuva Guardians wield. I also really liked the concept for the Zarr with alternating firing modes. Frankly, the idea of another sniper-rifle doesn't impress me, as I've never been a huge fan of scopes in this game. However, something I'd be totally happy to see would be a Grineer-made, large single-shot bolt-action rifle similar to the Russian PTRD used in the second world war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTRD

the kind of crudeness of that weapon is just something I could see the Grineer having a similar design for, so I thought I might as well come up with some stats for a concept. I'll give my explanation for the stats after the numbers. Without further ado, here's the concept:

 

Siglok

"The Siglok, a 2 meter long prototype Grineer anti-material rifle, was designed with the intention of breaking clean through Corpus and Warframe shielding technology in one shot from a medium-range. Usually used in teams of two, one firer and one ammo-carrier, it's a devastating weapon with incredible accuracy given the wielder is well trained. The one oversight to this weapon is the sheer amount of noise it makes, giving away the team's position as soon as it's fired. As a result, after testing it had been fielded once on a Corpus raid before being scrapped due to it's unwieldiness and telegraphing of Siglok team locations."

Special Characteristics

• Sniper-type weapon, but doesn't possess a scope
• Secondary firing mechanic
• Innate 2.5 m punch-though on primary fire
• Innate 100% Blast status-effect on secondary fire
• Passive -15% Warframe running speed and Bullet Jump whilst held.

 

General

Mastery level: 8

Weapon type: Primary, Sniper

Trigger type: Semi-auto

Noise level: Alarming, 150 m

Fire rate: 1.50 rounds/s

Accuracy: 100

Magazine size: 1

Max ammo: 25

Reload Time: 1.30 s

 

Primary Fire

Flight speed: Hit-scan

Physical Damage: 900 Impact

Critical Chance: 10%

Critical Multiplier: 3.0x

Status Chance: 70%

 

Secondary Fire

Flight speed: 250 m/s

Physical Damage: 50

Elemental Damage: 250 Blast

Blast Radius: 5 meters

Critical Chance: -

Critical Multiplier: -

Status Chance: 10%

 

Shot Combo

Shot combo minimum: 5

Shot combo reset timer: 4 seconds

 

 

I wanted to emphasise the point that this gun is a sniper rifle but doesn't posses a scope. Thus, it cannot benefit from scope bonuses, which is a drawback. That said, Charged and Primed Chamber mods are usable. As well as this, since it's secondary firing mode possess a blast radius, it can use Firestorm (Adhesive Blast will have no effect).

Since the primary fire is single-target, I figure giving it punch through was appropriate, but not too much to make it broken. We want it to go through maybe 1 or 2 targets or soft-cover, but not an entire line of enemies without more mods. It was also given a really high status chance since I felt raw damage simply wasn't enough to make this weapon good. Notice the low crit chance with high crit damage output. I thought making those rare crits that this gun would have would be more rewarding to see if the crit damage was notable.

So I recognised that this gun would have issues with dealing with multiple targets in clusters as oppose to in lines, which is why I included an alternate shot with a blast-area. The idea was to make it specifically for crowd control when it was needed, without having a massive damage output. This gun will do self-damage.

The last passive that penalises movement was put in there to represent the weapon's unwieldiness, as mentioned already in the lore-text. Whilst not really a nescesary addition, I thought it'd be fun to reflect the weapon's size/weight, because I do intend for it to be unnescesarily huge. The low ammo capacity is also meant to reflect this.

Edit 1: One final thing to mention is that this weapon's recoil would be huge. I can't really give a measurable amount, but it would be a lot.

Edit 2 (06/03/17): Made amendments to stats -

• Reload speed increased from 1.75 s to 1.30 s
• Fire rate decreased from 1.00 round/s to 1.50 rounds/s
• Primary fire Impact damage increased from 700 to 900
• Primary fire punch-through increased from 0.5 m to 2.5 m
• Primary fire status chance increased from 50% to 70% (this was changed to allow players to use only one dual-stat damage/status mod if they want to proc only primary elemental types such as fire, electricity, etc.)
• Secondary fire flight speed increased from 150 m/s to 250 m/s
• Secondary Blast damage increased from 100 to 250

Edit 3 (06/03/17): Added Shot combo stats.

 

I hope this concept has grabbed your interest, let me know what you think.

Edited March 6, 2017 by IANOBW

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

I like this a lot . Not because it would be useful or anything this is a horde shooter . But because it's creative and I can see this and opticor competing for hardest hitting rifles 😎

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Vectis is a bolt action rifle just fyi. I like your idea and anti-tank rifles like the solothurn are badass as hell, but the stats you got are a little wonky. I think that the punch through should be on par with the lanka at around 5m because this would be by definition, the hardest hitting bullet in game. Both modes should have projectile speed. Damage should be at least double, and after every non-crouched shot, you will get a knockback effect. The reload speed is too low when compared to the damage it does. 700 damage is nothing when the Tigris prime does 1560 damage with the op shotgun status mechanics (3120 if you consider it a single shot duplex fire), opticor does 1000, and the lanka does 525 and a ton of crit.

[IANOBW]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

I like this a lot . Not because it would be useful or anything this is a horde shooter . But because it's creative and I can see this and opticor competing for hardest hitting rifles 😎

Thanks, I'm glad you're keen on the idea!

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Vectis is a bolt action rifle just fyi. I like your idea and anti-tank rifles like the solothurn are badass as hell, but the stats you got are a little wonky. I think that the punch through should be on par with the lanka at around 5m because this would be by definition, the hardest hitting bullet in game. Both modes should have projectile speed. Damage should be at least double, and after every non-crouched shot, you will get a knockback effect. The reload speed is too low when compared to the damage it does. 700 damage is nothing when the Tigris prime does 1560 damage with the op shotgun status mechanics (3120 if you consider it a single shot duplex fire), opticor does 1000, and the lanka does 525 and a ton of crit.

Before I start, thanks for the feedback. A few of your points shined some light on some issues with the weapon, but I'd like to input my own counter-argument to some of them. I'd like to make a disclaimer here that I'm not aiming to make this gun the next top-tier weapon, but rather a fun and interesting addition that could potentially be a side grade to the Opticor, Lanka, etc. I'm also certainly not going to compare his gun to the Tigris line at all, that would be silly:

On the topic of punch-through, I did consider this prior. Initially, my thoughts we're somewhere around 4 meters, which would have been fine and made sense contextually, but one thing I don't want to do is overshadow other weapons. The Lanka's main feature I'd argue is the punch-though it possesses. Whilst the Lanka and Opticor both have technically higher damage than the Siglok, it's important to remember they are charged weapons. For this reason, a single-fire hit-scan rifle with a semi-auto trigger can be arguably faster firing given the right mods. With this in mind, I felt like the Siglok should have a slight downside in both damage output and punch through compared to these weapons at base value.

One little thing I'd like to mention is this weapon's interaction with the Smeeta Kavat's cat's eye ability. Considering it's relatively high crit damage, this could offset it's moderately low damage output if built correctly.

Once again, thanks for the feedback. It is incredibly helpful to look at something from a different perspective. I've made amendments in the OP with changes to some of the statistics you mentioned, which are listed in Edit 2.

Edited March 6, 2017 by IANOBW

[(PSN)Crixus044]

2 hours ago, IANOBW said:

Before I start, thanks for the feedback. A few of your points shined some light on some issues with the weapon, but I'd like to input my own counter-argument to some of them. I'd like to make a disclaimer here that I'm not aiming to make this gun the next top-tier weapon, but rather a fun and interesting addition that could potentially be a side grade to the Opticor, Lanka, etc. I'm also certainly not going to compare his gun to the Tigris line at all, that would be silly:

On the topic of punch-through, I did consider this prior. Initially, my thoughts we're somewhere around 4 meters, which would have been fine and made sense contextually, but one thing I don't want to do is overshadow other weapons. The Lanka's main feature I'd argue is the punch-though it possesses. Whilst the Lanka and Opticor both have technically higher damage than the Siglok, it's important to remember they are charged weapons. For this reason, a single-fire hit-scan rifle with a semi-auto trigger can be arguably faster firing given the right mods. With this in mind, I felt like the Siglok should have a slight downside in both damage output and punch through compared to these weapons at base value.

One little thing I'd like to mention is this weapon's interaction with the Smeeta Kavat's cat's eye ability. Considering it's relatively high crit damage, this could offset it's moderately low damage output if built correctly.

Once again, thanks for the feedback. It is incredibly helpful to look at something from a different perspective. I've made amendments in the OP with changes to some of the statistics you mentioned, which are listed in Edit 2.

Nice job on the edits. I understand your reasoning for damage and punch through to not overshadow other weapons. Opticor and Lanka are both charge weapons, but considering the fact that this weapon has 1 mag capacity, the constant reloading takes up the place of a charge mechanic. This is much like how people consider tv's vectis a sniper/ bow, even though the lanka fits the bill better because it's a charge weapon. 2.5m punch through is fine, and the reload speed increase is great. I'd still have the damage a little higher, since you'll be sacrificing scope benefits and from my calculations, this weapon would keep up with crit snipers if it had 20% more damage. Maybe add some puncture damage for this?

Also, will this weapon use the sniper combo counter? All sniper combo counters are different, so make it how you'd like, but just to give a tough example, the regular vectis has a combo counter that starts at 2 shots (multishot makes this 1 shot) and resets after 4 seconds unless you have harkonar scope, which I used religiously lol. The vectis at a 2x combo counter would be getting 80k sustained dps.

[IANOBW]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Nice job on the edits. I understand your reasoning for damage and punch through to not overshadow other weapons. Opticor and Lanka are both charge weapons, but considering the fact that this weapon has 1 mag capacity, the constant reloading takes up the place of a charge mechanic. This is much like how people consider tv's vectis a sniper/ bow, even though the lanka fits the bill better because it's a charge weapon. 2.5m punch through is fine, and the reload speed increase is great. I'd still have the damage a little higher, since you'll be sacrificing scope benefits and from my calculations, this weapon would keep up with crit snipers if it had 20% more damage. Maybe add some puncture damage for this?

Whilst I understand your concern with the damage output and crits, consider the following:

I took a look at our current list of sniper rifles to compare the Siglok to, and I decided that it would be good start by comparing it to possibly it's closest relative, the Vectis (Prime). Both have one in the chamber (discounting the prime), the Vectis has s slightly faster reload speed at just under 1 second, and both have a base damage output of 225 (325) spread between IPS.

Now it's time to consider critical damage. From this point forth, to save time, I'll just compare to the prime variant. Let's assume we're using a critical build with 100% crit chance and max damage (Vital sense + Bladed rounds + Point strike + Argon scope and maybe Critical Delay so we reach +240% crit damage and 100% crit chance after headshots). Excluding Serration and Split-chamber, we have maybe 1 or 2 slots for +90% elementals, bringing us up to 910 damage, factoring our crit we get 6188 damage, then with the scope bonus we have 7425.6 damage total.

Of course, in this scenario, if we were to do the same to the Siglok, of course we wouldn't have as much damage output - it has only 10% chance to crit, so you wouldn't mod for it. However, lets discuss status chance builds:

If we want to go for pure damage with an elemental build, Siglok wins outright against it's competitor. Excluding our 2 mod slots for Serration and Split chamber again, we only have to apply one dual-stat elemental/status mod to get to full status chance with our Siglok. That leaves us 5 slots for elemental mods. If we take all 4 +90% status mods and a +120 Impact mod, we sit a total of 5760 damage. Not far off the Vectis. Considering our innate punch-through, the Siglok technically has a higher damage output despite the Vectis' reload speed, assuming we have more targets. As well as this, we have 100% status chance - if we factor in this trait the Siglok has more utility already, despite it's lower damage per shot.

With this in mind, I think comparing the Siglok to the middle-ground of sniper rifles is not far off.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Also, will this weapon use the sniper combo counter? All sniper combo counters are different, so make it how you'd like, but just to give a tough example, the regular vectis has a combo counter that starts at 2 shots (multishot makes this 1 shot) and resets after 4 seconds unless you have harkonar scope, which I used religiously lol. The vectis at a 2x combo counter would be getting 80k sustained dps.

I actually completely forgot about the sniper combo counter! I'll have to amend that in the OP.

Thanks again for the input!

[(PSN)Crixus044]

12 hours ago, IANOBW said:

Whilst I understand your concern with the damage output and crits, consider the following:

I took a look at our current list of sniper rifles to compare the Siglok to, and I decided that it would be good start by comparing it to possibly it's closest relative, the Vectis (Prime). Both have one in the chamber (discounting the prime), the Vectis has s slightly faster reload speed at just under 1 second, and both have a base damage output of 225 (325) spread between IPS.

Now it's time to consider critical damage. From this point forth, to save time, I'll just compare to the prime variant. Let's assume we're using a critical build with 100% crit chance and max damage (Vital sense + Bladed rounds + Point strike + Argon scope and maybe Critical Delay so we reach +240% crit damage and 100% crit chance after headshots). Excluding Serration and Split-chamber, we have maybe 1 or 2 slots for +90% elementals, bringing us up to 910 damage, factoring our crit we get 6188 damage, then with the scope bonus we have 7425.6 damage total.

Of course, in this scenario, if we were to do the same to the Siglok, of course we wouldn't have as much damage output - it has only 10% chance to crit, so you wouldn't mod for it. However, lets discuss status chance builds:

If we want to go for pure damage with an elemental build, Siglok wins outright against it's competitor. Excluding our 2 mod slots for Serration and Split chamber again, we only have to apply one dual-stat elemental/status mod to get to full status chance with our Siglok. That leaves us 5 slots for elemental mods. If we take all 4 +90% status mods and a +120 Impact mod, we sit a total of 5760 damage. Not far off the Vectis. Considering our innate punch-through, the Siglok technically has a higher damage output despite the Vectis' reload speed, assuming we have more targets. As well as this, we have 100% status chance - if we factor in this trait the Siglok has more utility already, despite it's lower damage per shot.

With this in mind, I think comparing the Siglok to the middle-ground of sniper rifles is not far off.

 

I actually completely forgot about the sniper combo counter! I'll have to amend that in the OP.

Thanks again for the input!

On paper, that is 100% correct. Siglok is just about equal to vectis. I won't use the prime because logically, we'd compare that to a future Siglok Wraith, so I'll compare the regular vectis to the siglok. What you have to consider is that crit not only scales better with powers and other modifiers, but also, with headshots. Headshots massively increase crit weapon potential. I love the idea of a non-crit sniper, and I love your idea, and I trust you can make this an extremely viable idea, ut keep in mind that crit potential is massively more effective than regular damage. Also, hate to break it to ya, but going over the builds I've made of your weapon, crit builds are still going to be the most "viable/powerful" builds for damage, BUT pure damage builds will actually be EQUAL is sustained dps. This is interesting to me because I love going over weapon potential, and I like this one. I like the idea and I like where you want to take it. Just remember, that in order for a pure damage weapon to beat a crit weapon, it needs to at least keep up with crit weapons at a 50% headshot rate.

http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Vectis/t_30_20000000_132-0-5-133-7-5-137-1-10-140-4-5-141-6-5-159-5-5-561-3-5-626-2-5_132-8-137-14-626-9-561-7-140-9-159-9-141-11-133-11/en/2-0-23

This is the vectis build I use religiously. If I where a perfect shot, I'd be getting 200k dps with this thing, but I hit maybe half headshots and sustain a 2.0x Multiplier with my decent accuracy. I would give myself a rough average of 60% headshots, so that would be about 150k susatined dps. If you want your gun to compete, you'll need to have a middle ground between the power of crit headshot potential and regular bodyshot potential.

Use warframe builder's blank sniper feature as a guide for your weapon.

[IANOBW]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

On paper, that is 100% correct. Siglok is just about equal to vectis. I won't use the prime because logically, we'd compare that to a future Siglok Wraith, so I'll compare the regular vectis to the siglok. What you have to consider is that crit not only scales better with powers and other modifiers, but also, with headshots. Headshots massively increase crit weapon potential. I love the idea of a non-crit sniper, and I love your idea, and I trust you can make this an extremely viable idea, ut keep in mind that crit potential is massively more effective than regular damage. Also, hate to break it to ya, but going over the builds I've made of your weapon, crit builds are still going to be the most "viable/powerful" builds for damage, BUT pure damage builds will actually be EQUAL is sustained dps. This is interesting to me because I love going over weapon potential, and I like this one. I like the idea and I like where you want to take it. Just remember, that in order for a pure damage weapon to beat a crit weapon, it needs to at least keep up with crit weapons at a 50% headshot rate.

http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Vectis/t_30_20000000_132-0-5-133-7-5-137-1-10-140-4-5-141-6-5-159-5-5-561-3-5-626-2-5_132-8-137-14-626-9-561-7-140-9-159-9-141-11-133-11/en/2-0-23

This is the vectis build I use religiously. If I where a perfect shot, I'd be getting 200k dps with this thing, but I hit maybe half headshots and sustain a 2.0x Multiplier with my decent accuracy. I would give myself a rough average of 60% headshots, so that would be about 150k susatined dps. If you want your gun to compete, you'll need to have a middle ground between the power of crit headshot potential and regular bodyshot potential.

Use warframe builder's blank sniper feature as a guide for your weapon.

Your theory on sniper damage output is OK, but if we're gonna go with hypotheticals about if you can consistently hit headshots, consistently crit, etc. we also have to remember when you don't. There's always the chance that your shot will 1. not connect  2. not do enough damage. Of course, that is the trade-off for snipers. They are luck-based, for the most part.

When it came to designing this gun, I also thought about this trait and decided that I'd prefer to make a gun with more consistency in damage output without the need to mod too much for that consistency. I also chose it to specialise specifically in status, despite knowing that low ROF status weapons generally aren't as good as the high ROF ones. Of course, this gun would fill a niche - relatively high damage output, regular status procs. Of course, despite the slight randomness and high build requirements of other snipers, the Siglok will never out-damage a Vectis/Vectis P in one shot, but this is only if we consider firing at one target...

Consider we're up against a mob of enemies. Arrange them how you like - since you have the mobility and necessary Warframe powers at your disposal you can either kite a crowd into a formation you want or CC them into it. Most of the time, at least up until around level 50-60 enemies, the Siglok will kill in one shot. When you get above this threshold, you're delving into territory where this won't be the case without additional help from Warframe abilities. The same goes for the Vectis - I'm sure your build will do fine up against single targets up to around level 80 with only a few shots required for a kill things like heavy gunners, bombards, etc. However, in a group this becomes a lot more difficult. You're build requires you to hit those headshots, on each enemy, and then you have to crit every time (granted, this will be often, but regardless my point stands).

Back to the punch-through, lets consider a group of 5 enemies. The Siglok would always do a much better job at handling these enemies than a Vectis would, without the reliance of specific Warframe abilities. You'd be able to hit multiple targets in a single shot, and whilst it wont do as much damage per enemy as the Vectis, it could often do more damage overall, since you'll be hitting more targets. Couple this with the 100% proc chance and a careful selection of status effects, you can lock down a small area with the Siglok and add DOT.

You'll be saying now that the damage output still isn't enough - now consider the sniper combo, pair it with the multiple hits through multiple targets in one shot, and a 90% chance of multi-shot. If we hit all five enemies (because once again, we're working with hypotheticals, starting from your chance of a headshot) we've accumulated 10 hits in one shot. If this was used in an endless mission, where enemies are pretty much constantly rounded up together, just imagine the combo counter.

So yes, whilst the Siglok won't out-damage your Vectis on the first shot, this is not what the Siglok was designed for. I don't want to design another cookie-cutter weapon. This gun needs to be quirky, and the best way to do that is by going against the norm for it's weapon category in a way that makes it desirable for a different purpose.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

15 hours ago, IANOBW said:

Your theory on sniper damage output is OK, but if we're gonna go with hypotheticals about if you can consistently hit headshots, consistently crit, etc. we also have to remember when you don't. There's always the chance that your shot will 1. not connect  2. not do enough damage. Of course, that is the trade-off for snipers. They are luck-based, for the most part.

When it came to designing this gun, I also thought about this trait and decided that I'd prefer to make a gun with more consistency in damage output without the need to mod too much for that consistency. I also chose it to specialise specifically in status, despite knowing that low ROF status weapons generally aren't as good as the high ROF ones. Of course, this gun would fill a niche - relatively high damage output, regular status procs. Of course, despite the slight randomness and high build requirements of other snipers, the Siglok will never out-damage a Vectis/Vectis P in one shot, but this is only if we consider firing at one target...

Consider we're up against a mob of enemies. Arrange them how you like - since you have the mobility and necessary Warframe powers at your disposal you can either kite a crowd into a formation you want or CC them into it. Most of the time, at least up until around level 50-60 enemies, the Siglok will kill in one shot. When you get above this threshold, you're delving into territory where this won't be the case without additional help from Warframe abilities. The same goes for the Vectis - I'm sure your build will do fine up against single targets up to around level 80 with only a few shots required for a kill things like heavy gunners, bombards, etc. However, in a group this becomes a lot more difficult. You're build requires you to hit those headshots, on each enemy, and then you have to crit every time (granted, this will be often, but regardless my point stands).

Back to the punch-through, lets consider a group of 5 enemies. The Siglok would always do a much better job at handling these enemies than a Vectis would, without the reliance of specific Warframe abilities. You'd be able to hit multiple targets in a single shot, and whilst it wont do as much damage per enemy as the Vectis, it could often do more damage overall, since you'll be hitting more targets. Couple this with the 100% proc chance and a careful selection of status effects, you can lock down a small area with the Siglok and add DOT.

You'll be saying now that the damage output still isn't enough - now consider the sniper combo, pair it with the multiple hits through multiple targets in one shot, and a 90% chance of multi-shot. If we hit all five enemies (because once again, we're working with hypotheticals, starting from your chance of a headshot) we've accumulated 10 hits in one shot. If this was used in an endless mission, where enemies are pretty much constantly rounded up together, just imagine the combo counter.

So yes, whilst the Siglok won't out-damage your Vectis on the first shot, this is not what the Siglok was designed for. I don't want to design another cookie-cutter weapon. This gun needs to be quirky, and the best way to do that is by going against the norm for it's weapon category in a way that makes it desirable for a different purpose.

That's fine. Create a common situation that fits the purpose and use for this weapon, and calculate the performance of the weapon in that situation. Keep in mind that 2.5m punch through will go through about 4 enemies. This will give you a good judgement on whether the weapon meets your standards. I said already that a pure damage weapon has to have a performance that at 100% headshot, you will equal the dps of a crit weapon at 50%-75% headshot rate. This will ensure that your weapon will have a true niche. Plus, I have to tell ya, that Status on a weapon that fires every 1.3 seconds really is not that significant.

This is why the Boltor Prime seemed like the best auto rifle at one time, but Soma Prime is better, because Boltor may output slightly more dps normally, but Soma Prime takes off in dps with headshots. Also crit mods have made Soma Prime the absolute best in the business. Keep this in mind.

Also, I first saw this weapon as a great alternative to Mag + Lanka, but unfortunately, you need at least 5m of punch through to obtain that, so the best situation I could see this weapon in is a Vauban, Nidus, Prologned Paralysis Valkyr, Firewalker Nezha, and maybe a stomp rhino.

Edited March 8, 2017 by (PS4)Crixus044